Why is there no transformer in the Neumann M149?

[andonwego]

Anybody?


...Fletcher?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by andonwego

Anybody?

Because transformers saturate and distort and a transformerless balancing circuit is quieter and more neutral.

Yes, I know some people love the distortions that transformers add, but just as many people (me included) hate them.

You can't please everyone, unfortunately.

But there are plenty of Neumann microphones with transformers and many valve microphones available with transformers - so why not do something different and make a valve (vacuum tube) microphone that has the advantages of the valve without the transformer noise and distortion?

[andonwego]

True. What I meant, though, and I should have realized to say this, was that the M149 is their current flagship microphone, and while it makes a huge amount of sense to offer different permutations on design, it seems slightly odd that their flagship mic, considering the entire heritage of what they have built, would have a sort of aroma of 'nouveau' ...

If anyone gets what I'm digging at.

It seems like brand recklessness.

A custom designed transparent transformer that added a hint of vintage taste wouldn't necessarily be out of the acceptable range of design ideas...

[Jamie Mac]

Originally Posted by andonwego

True. What I meant, though, and I should have realized to say this, was that the M149 is their current flagship microphone, and while it makes a huge amount of sense to offer different permutations on design, it seems slightly odd that their flagship mic, considering the entire heritage of what they have built, would have a sort of aroma of 'nouveau' ...

If anyone gets what I'm digging at.

It seems like brand recklessness.

A custom designed transparent transformer that added a hint of vintage taste wouldn't necessarily be out of the acceptable range of design ideas...

Neumann has been making transformerless microphones since the sixties... So it's nothing new to their brand or heritage..

What would the point be of a transparent transformer (if at all possible)?

The tube in the 149 does exactly what you describe as that "hint of vintage taste"

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by andonwego

True. What I meant, though, and I should have realized to say this, was that the M149 is their current flagship microphone...

I would not call the M149 the "flagship" microphone.

I would say that would be the D-01.

[smutbasket]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I would not call the M149 the "flagship" microphone.

I would say that would be the D-01.

that probably depends upon whether you're asking neumann or most of their customer base

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by andonwego

Anybody?


...Fletcher?

$$$$$$ Same goes for tube mics. More $$$ for PSU and compliance certification. Just a guess.

[jmikeperkins]

There is no transformer in the M149 because Neumann designed it that way. Neumann's attitude seems to be that since they have kept their historic mic capsules the same (unlike AKG), they have paid enough tribute to their past, and don't feel any need to do the same with the amplifier part of their new mics. Its popular here to bash all of the new Neumann mics and say its the lack of a transformer that makes them bad, but the reality is its more complicated than that. If you ever get the chance to use the wonderful Neumann U77 or KM74 from the late 1960's, both of which lack transformers, it might change your attitude on what a transformerless Neumann mic can be. They fact that these sound so different from their current transformless models shows there is more going on than just having a transformer or not.

[drtaudio]

My guess is because the "bean counters" got at it.

It is a lot cheaper to make a balanced IC output circuit than a good transformer coupled circuit. It would cost Neumann about 10-15 times as much for a good transformer as a couple of IC's..... even good ones.

Transformers don't distort like IC's. Transformers when they do get saturated produce more pleasing even order harmonics while IC's produce odd harmonic distortion. They almost sound like a HF limiter.

The transformer is much more musical sounding when it is pushed to its limits compared to an IC.

Our CM47se which has a similar capsule to the M149 can produce +18dbu with less than 1% distortion which is the same as the M149 specifications.

However, once the M149 reaches this level it is in full clipping.

I guess Neumann missed the AES study in the early 70's which in a blindfold test found that tube circuits could be pushed 20db past the onset of distortion before they sounded "NASTY" while a discrete transistor circuit could only be pushed 10db past the onset of distortion and the IC circuit only 5db past the onset of distortion before it sounded "Nasty".

The only noise produced by the transformer is EMI and winding dual bobbin (hum bucking) eliminates this or winding a toroidal transformer like Rupert Neve uses in the Portico will also reduced induced noise.

The advantage of transformers is their Common Mode rejections.

They also stop an direct dc connection between the microphones and the preamp. If the phantom was left on it won't hurt the tube microphone.

We did a lot of listening tests between or CM47se and a M149 and whether it was a Jazz player, rock player, film score producer or country producer they all seemed to prefer our microphone and the only difference other than slight difference between the capsules was the fact that our circuit is a transformer coupled tube circuit.

If you listen to the latest Kings of Leon CD you can hear our CM47se in front of the bass amp and I don't hear any distortion? I don't think the M149 would hold up as well in front of the bass amp.

Cheers, Dave Thomas

Advanced Audio Microphones

Originally Posted by John Willett

Because transformers saturate and distort and a transformerless balancing circuit is quieter and more neutral.

Yes, I know some people love the distortions that transformers add, but just as many people (me included) hate them.

You can't please everyone, unfortunately.

But there are plenty of Neumann microphones with transformers and many valve microphones available with transformers - so why not do something different and make a valve (vacuum tube) microphone that has the advantages of the valve without the transformer noise and distortion?

[Robert Alger]

Originally Posted by andonwego

considering the entire heritage of what they have built, would have a sort of aroma of 'nouveau' ...

Neumann is a Sennheiser product. right? A look at the history of Sennheiser has more relevance than the history of Neumann.

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

Neumann is a Sennheiser product. right? A look at the history of Sennheiser has more relevance than the history of Neumann.

Care to explain please. base on what ?

Thank you

[ray_subsonic]

Klein & Hummel is now owned by Neumann. Neumann is owned by Sennheiser, perhaps something akin to a benevolent father. It's certainly different to The Harman Groups takeover and subsequent junking of AKG. That's more like a parent eating it's children.

[airmate]

Originally Posted by andonwego

It seems like brand recklessness.

perhaps it comes down to a difference between the american and german mentality (no offense here!).

neumann has always considered themselves as technology leaders. and they are! they invented the condenser mic, after all... they constantly sought to improve their existing designs and to make new developments. they have seen the technical weaknesses of a transformer based design, and at some point they went with a circuit design that was better in their point of view.

it has been discussed to death whether "old" neumanns would be better sounding than "newer" ones.
but from their point of view it totally makes sense.

[baikonour]

I Know "transformer" is the new "Toob" but some design (I'm thinking of some mastering gear for example or some preamps even some tube base designs) which are transformerless in purpose, and this is not because of costs.
Manley, GML, TC etc...
Also a transformer base design can also clip, in an hugly way, not just electronically balanced design

[Robert Alger]

Originally Posted by bigbone

Care to explain please. base on what ?

Thank you

The OP is questioning why “Neumann” has made certain decisions regarding their product line. Considering that Georg Neumann GmbH went out of business 20 years ago, I would say that these decisions are a reflection of Sennheiser, and perhaps a look at their heritage would shed more light on the subject.

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by Jamie Mac

What would the point be of a transparent transformer (if at all possible)?

Typically, a transformer is used in a mic to present a certain load, and to electrically isolate the mic from the cable & mic pre. And that's a really nice quality in a mic circuit (albeit far from the only consideration). So it stands to reason that a designer might wish to have a "transparent" transformer.

...But obviously, there is no such thing as a "transparent" transformer. (And it's an even taller order when dealing with the space and weight considerations of building a microphone.)

Long story short, the absence of a transformer is NOT (in and of itself) an indication that the quality of a microphone has somehow been sacrificed upon the altar of price. There are many excellent transformerless designs.

...So as "Jamie Mac" has pointed out, Neumann has been making transformerless microphones since the sixties.
.

[Plush]

The reason there is no transformer is alluded to above. Neumann and German design in general see transformerless circuitry as more advanced than older solutions.

[airmate]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

The OP is questioning why “Neumann” has made certain decisions regarding their product line. Considering that Georg Neumann GmbH went out of business 20 years ago, I would say that these decisions are a reflection of Sennheiser, and perhaps a look at their heritage would shed more light on the subject.

with all due respect, but this is not really true. neumann's r&d department is still in berlin, and the team is more or less the same like it has used to be.
they even use their old tools dating back until the 1950s to construct prototypes.
i have seen all this with my own eyes during a visit some two years ago...

neumann might somehow operate "under the roof" of sennheiser, but as far as i know they do not even share production facilities. neumann mic are being built on site at sennheiser in hannover, but not by the same employees who build the sennheiser stuff.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

The OP is questioning why “Neumann” has made certain decisions regarding their product line. Considering that Georg Neumann GmbH went out of business 20 years ago, I would say that these decisions are a reflection of Sennheiser, and perhaps a look at their heritage would shed more light on the subject.

What a load of rubbish! tutt

Please - get your facts right!

Georg Neumann GmbH never went out of business.

After Georg Neumann died, his heirs decided to sell the company. Sennheiser bought the company - it was (and still is) a successful company and it never went out of business.

Neumann Head Office is still in Berlin and the same key people are involved.

Sennheiser Head Office is in Hannover.

Neumann is run as a separate entity with its own R&D and Neumann manufacturing is separate from Sennheiser manufacturing (although both main manufacturing plants are just outside Hannover).

Before you start spreading unsubstantiated rumours I would suggest you check the facts.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by airmate

with all due respect, but this is not really true. neumann's r&d department is still in berlin, and the team is more or less the same like it has used to be.
they even use their old tools dating back until the 1950s to construct prototypes.
i have seen all this with my own eyes during a visit some two years ago...

neumann might somehow operate "under the roof" of sennheiser, but as far as i know they do not even share production facilities. neumann mic are being built on site at sennheiser in hannover, but not by the same employees who build the sennheiser stuff.

Yes - what airmate says is correct.

[airmate]

btw, this one of the original drilling machines neumann is still using for prototypes. it is STILL the same company up to details like these...




just for the record: i am not affiliated with them in any way, and i am owning and using both vintage and modern neumann mics with great results.

i just can not stand this perpetual neumann bashing on this site. and it makes me even more angry when there is so much misinformation constantly being spilt.

we can actually discuss pros and cons of different mics, but please stop spreading this bulls**t!

[Meriphew]

Because there are plenty of other top notch builders making tube mics w/transformers. Neumann can now concentrate on building mediocre mics.

[Robert Alger]

I don’t know why you feel like I am “bashing” Neumann, I am not, nor am I bashing Sennheiser.

I am simply commenting on the idea that Neumann has drifted away from their heritage. I am not even saying that they have. Only that my experience has been that when company “A”is bought by company “B”, it is very difficult for company “A” to maintain their existing culture, without taking on some of the attributes of company “B”. That’s it.

As far as going out of business, you can call it what you want. Were they not bankrupt? If not, then I apoligize.

If my company was bankrupt and one of my competitors bought my company, I call that out of business, even if they kept my drillpress.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Meriphew

Because there are plenty of other top notch builders making tube mics w/transformers. Neumann can now concentrate on building mediocre mics.

This is only your opinion - personally I don't like tube mics, nor transformers and consider them too coloured.

A mic. is a tool that you choose to do the job you want. Just because a mic. will not do the job you want does not mean that it's bad or mediocre, just that it's not the tool for you.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

IWere they not bankrupt? If not, then I apoligize.

My understanding is that Neumann were never Bankrupt - just that the Neumann family did not want to continue after Georg Neumann's death and decided to sell the company.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

The OP is questioning why “Neumann” has made certain decisions regarding their product line. Considering that Georg Neumann GmbH went out of business 20 years ago, I would say that these decisions are a reflection of Sennheiser, and perhaps a look at their heritage would shed more light on the subject.

Certainly your comment is nonsense.
Even the same people are there at Neumann.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[Robert Alger]

Originally Posted by Plush

Certainly your comment is nonsense.
Even the same people are there at Neumann.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

Have you ever been part of a company that was taken over by another?
Not nonsense and nothing is certain my friend.

[airmate]

Originally Posted by Robert Alger

Have you ever been part of a company that was taken over by another?
Not nonsense and nothing is certain my friend.

Have you been there and have you seen it with your own eyes?

Let's just talk based on facts. I have spent a whole day at Neumann's R&D lab, taking some 300 pictures - I have even seen things there I am not allowed to discuss in public.

Anyone claiming that the "real" Neumann company does not exist anymore is just plain wrong. As stated earlier, they operate kind of "under the roof" of Sennheiser, but it is still the SAME company. The same peole in the same rooms, using the same tools, making independent decisions.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Because transformers saturate and distort and a transformerless balancing circuit is quieter and more neutral.

Hello John,

May I suggest that:

1) Not all the transformers saturate at microphone levels... or let's put it differently, both transformers and transformerless do saturate and distort at certain levels. It is true, the mechanism and content of those distortions is different for transformer and transformerless, but it would not be fair to say that one does saturate and distort and another does not (and I am not talking about "musicality" (whatever it is) of those artifacts).

2) I don't see how the transformerless circuit is quieter. In fact, the self noise of the active components is higher than copper resistance noise of the transformer. Needless to notice, transformers have by far better CMR.

3) Transformers do much better job of driving long cables.

4) In a double blind test would you be able to easily tell a transformer coupled circuit from transformerless one?

Best, M

[Marik]

Originally Posted by airmate

btw, this one of the original drilling machines neumann is still using for prototypes. it is STILL the same company up to details like these...

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1.../neumann49.jpg

This is not a drilling machine, but lathe... very cool one. Thanks for the pic.

Best, M