NEVE or Tube channel for killer Hammond tone!? (and Rhodes)

[dr_chopz]

NEVE channel or Tube channel for killer Hammond tone!? (and Rhodes)

To give you guys some idea where I'm at...

I'm a keyboarist with a project studio. I have amassed many synths and racks of modules & FX over the years. I mainly do sequencing thru a Kurzweil (2600 & 2661) and record on an AW4416 with waves card (so between the two I don't really need EQ or Compression although I see pros use many various flavors of comps (well various everything). But I’m not tracking an entire band… ATM. To be honest, never heard NEVE but have read much about it over the years and recently been researching the last few months on the various forums & web sites... (BTW, I guess I gotta sell my Chinese mics now after reading yer many posts on the subject… is everyone here financially independent???... and still married???)

Anyway, this would be my first pre... I'm mainly looking for a chain to record my B3, some vocals... and Rhodes too... so I'd need color from the di/line in as well. In fact, I had a direct out installed on my B to get a pure non Leslie tone ala Brian Auger. A stereo pre would be nice but I can mic the leslie into the Yamaha. I’m mainly looking for huge 3D creamy in yer face tone going direct. Not rock distortion ala Deep Purple… although I like Greg Rolie’s tone and can get progressive like Keith Emerson but he mics more traditionally (single mic each rotor). Barbara Dennerlein’s tone is sweet as well. For Rhodes… Jeff Lorber is the benchmark.

Anyway, regarding the NEVE stuff... looks like mainly used for drums, gtr, and vox... curious as to how they sound on hammond but an expensive test for the real deal. Also would need a DI as I'd like to record samples of buddies guitars & bass... Also like the idea have having options (silk switch or iron & fat like Crane & Origin, or even multiple tranny choices ala Shadow Hills, etc... decisions, decisions).

Anyway, out of the hundreds of pres flooding the market and thousands of opinions/reviews on said pres, I'm considering the following... and there's still pros and cons for each piece… Bottom line is a killer tone!

So here’s some Tranny & Tube stuff I'm considering...
Chandler (LTD, TG CH, TG2)
Portico (5012 / 5032)
GRNV
GTQ
Chandler (LTD, TG CH, TG2)
Pacifica
Helios
ADL 600
TD-1 (versatile but possibly too clean as line in bypasses the input tranny)
Pendulum MDP-1
Recording channels like the Quartet, Requisite Audio or Origin… afraid I may want two!
Kinda waiting for some SuPRE reviews to pop up as well…
even considering the REDDI or the FATSO for killer tone… crap where does it end???

Ok, thanx for listening guys…
Appreciate any help & have dug your many posts on all things slutty…
TW

[Nutmeg II.]

Ah! Haveing a hard time?
First of all I realy love the REDDI on Rhodes.
But to come back to the tones you are looking for I can't help you to much, but I think most of the sound of this organ players is in their playing, drawbar settings and instruments.
I usualy prefer a miced up leslie and even on the Rhodes a amp does realy add a lot to the instrument.

But back to your qouestion I would advice you to find a good dealer that will give you some pres to check out!
Keep the pre you like most or the one you like second best (if it cost half of what the best would cost ).

I bet there are a lot of folks that will give you billions of opinions and all are different!

Go get there amps from the dealer and try befor buy (best advice in 110% of all cases)!



And yes, the REDDI realy sounds 3D sou you might want to check it or the MP2.


And try dynamic mics on the leslie! Less noise more sound!

[dr_chopz]

Hey Nutmeg,
appreciate the reply...

Actually did try that route... there is a high end dealer fairly close by (Bay Area) and thought of recording some samples and checking out how they sound thru various pres... but after driving over an hour was treated fairly rudely by this particular guy. Although I'm nowhere near as slutty as some of you guys (people actually own Brauner for $10K!!!... or delcosmos' racks!), I can hold my own with my toys and have helped many music stores stay in business along with Sweetwater Sound. Suffice to say, this guy lost out on some major purchases... and I can cross off Mercury from my list!

Yeah, I realize it's difficult to describe how something sounds with words & have read countless times the best way is to compare everthing side by side. Then those same folks will turn around and post that "Mic A kicks the shit out of Mic B". Cracks me up but that's why I come to this forum... Also, logisticaly it's pretty difficult as dealers don't carry everything I'm interested. My top 4 picks would require 4 different dealers.

Thanx for the Mic tip as I didn't realize dynamics help with the noise. I bought some SP c-4s SD condensers last year and was considering upgrading to Josephsons. My leslie is a bit noisey now as I had it rebuilt and it's monstrously loud now (things are resonating on certain notes... like the foundation) anyway, will look at dynamics... I guess RE20 & MD421
Thanx again,
TW

[Tone Laborer]

FWIW, I used the DI on a pair of 1272s for a Rhodes style piano the other day, it sounded nice and creamy, seemed approriate for that source.

[Fletcher]

20 something years ago when I was an assistant on a session with Jeff Lorber playing Rhodes the signal path was Rhodes--->Jensen Transformer based DI--->MCI 600 series console--->tape.

B-3?

I don't think it's actually possible to screw up the recording of a B-3. If you put a mic or 2 or 3 somewhere in the vacinity of the Leslie, and have the appropriate sound coming from the B-3/Leslie combination then you'll end up with a great B track [provided you have someone that can actually play a B... which are very few, and very far between!!!!].

I guess you might be able to screw it up if you overthought the process... but you'd have to work pretty hard to get a not too good B-3 recording.

[Joel_Thomas]

I didn't catch that if you where using a real Hammond or not. We have a late 40's "A" model in the studio as well as digital simulations. No amount of outboard gear will make the simulation anywhere near that of an actual Hammond's tone. I've had luck planting a mic in front of the leslie. Then it's just a matter of eq if it needs it or compression (...if it needs it). I got a chance to check out the "new" B-3 at NAMM last year and it didn't exactly blow me away. They where making it out like, "get ready to sell your old Hammond". The salesman hit one key and I was already off to the next booth....

[Joel_Thomas]

I gathered from your post it is a B-3. I've never had any trouble getting a good Hammond sound with a real one. Usually use a condenser or a ribbon. I'm pretty partial to ribbons. Of course, I'm more old school and less in the overly polished direction (...i.e. making a real B-3 sound like a fake digital keyboard). Now getting a good Hammond part is a different story...

[Nutmeg II.]

RE20 on the bottom is just about what you need.
Throw something like a pair of MD441 on 2 of the corneres that are 90° to each other.
And keep a little distance! (8" or more)

If you want go nuts use a pair of R84 ribon mics on top (carefull with the wind!).

[cedarstudios]

i have a A100 and have been getting some really good results using a U47fet into a TG2 sometimes in conjuntion with a 421. Even better when tracked to 2" 16 track.

[GearHunter]

Dr. Chopz! Get that GTQ2 you were interested in!

On B3 I like a Coles 4038 on the bottom and a pair of small condensers on the top, preferrably Neumann KM84. Ribbons all around are nice too, but like Nutmeg said, watch out for the air.

But like Fletcher said, if you have a good player, a couple of 57s up there would work fine!

[TonyBelmont]

Yeah Chopz, the GTQ is the way to go!

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Tone Laborer

FWIW, I used the DI on a pair of 1272s for a Rhodes style piano the other day, it sounded nice and creamy, seemed approriate for that source.

Hey Tone,
Thanx for getting back as that's the kind of input (no pun intended) i'm looking for. My dilemma is tryin' to decide between a great tranny or tube based pre (let alone which NEVE box to get!). Assumed a tube pre would be best for that application... good to know that a 1272 DI can also pull it off. I thought the price for a BAE 1272 was pretty reasonable for 2 channels (compared to 1073/1084... I realize there's no EQ), but after alittle DD I read Tanner's post re the 1272 as a talkback mic amplifier having one less gainstage (and also some cloners didn't copy that circuit correctly as the 1073).
THanx again,
Appreciate the reply...
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

20 something years ago when I was an assistant on a session with Jeff Lorber playing Rhodes the signal path was Rhodes--->Jensen Transformer based DI--->MCI 600 series console--->tape.

B-3?

I don't think it's actually possible to screw up the recording of a B-3. If you put a mic or 2 or 3 somewhere in the vacinity of the Leslie, and have the appropriate sound coming from the B-3/Leslie combination then you'll end up with a great B track [provided you have someone that can actually play a B... which are very few, and very far between!!!!].

I guess you might be able to screw it up if you overthought the process... but you'd have to work pretty hard to get a not too good B-3 recording.

Fletch, man you never cease to amaze... very cool! I guess at that time he was back east... (I believe he's originally from Philly as one of his last named CDs)... I would have given my right nut to have been there!...

Lorber is the absolute High Priest of... well, not only a funky jazz keyboadist but, a fantastic writer/arranger... the way he makes his Rhodes and Wurli's BARK with his voicings... his productions... his rhythm tracks are second to none! Consummate Pro... And the Man can riff. I always wondered what his signal chain was... thanx so much for that.

So what current piece would you recommend having a jensen tranny? I believe Hardy uses them but there's a few different Jensen models... plus I'd assummed his pres were more in the pristine camp. Also, would a dedicated DI make a difference vs. a pre with one? (BTW, I have a Fender Rhodes Mark I Stage Piano... the non-suitcase version).

Yeah, it's a definite treat seeing those smokin' hammond players that can work the swell & bass pedals & leslie... having all their limbs flailing away! I never got proficient with the pedals... plus when they're hooked up... there's a slight buzz in the signal (hmm?). Outside of those jazz guys, most organ tracks live in the background with a leslie changing speeds for emphasis so yeah it's not rocket science. But Brian Auger is unique in that he doesn't use leslies... and I love that tone (& his phenomenal chops as well). So I'm shooting for that kinda thing. I added a nice direct out (by Trek) so looking for some line level color there. After I iron out a few things with my leslie, I'll be recording it as well though.
Sure appreciate your reply.
Thanx again and have a great New year...
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas

I didn't catch that if you where using a real Hammond or not. We have a late 40's "A" model in the studio as well as digital simulations. No amount of outboard gear will make the simulation anywhere near that of an actual Hammond's tone. I've had luck planting a mic in front of the leslie. Then it's just a matter of eq if it needs it or compression (...if it needs it). I got a chance to check out the "new" B-3 at NAMM last year and it didn't exactly blow me away. They where making it out like, "get ready to sell your old Hammond". The salesman hit one key and I was already off to the next booth....

Yup Joel, It's the real deal... hope I attached this photo right.
Agreed... the clones don't due justice in a recording enviroment. Yeah, it's almost sacrilegious a hammond salesman would be selling a clone... and their version needs some work to get to the Native Instruments B4 level. I've heard good things re the Dynacord CLS-222... supposed to be a killer Leslie sim (analog box).

Part of the reason I bought the new Kurzweil was their emulation... but it too is lacking once you turn off the KDFX. If yer doing a live gig with a band it'll pass (as the audience has other priorties like drinkin', dancin', sex, etc...), but yeah nothin' like the real thing for a concert or recording. The other reason is lugging the beast around is a bitch... and mine is now stayin' put as I put alot of time, energy, and $ to get this bad boy refurbished.

[Joel_Thomas]

NICE!

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas

I gathered from your post it is a B-3. I've never had any trouble getting a good Hammond sound with a real one. Usually use a condenser or a ribbon. I'm pretty partial to ribbons. Of course, I'm more old school and less in the overly polished direction (...i.e. making a real B-3 sound like a fake digital keyboard). Now getting a good Hammond part is a different story...

Hey Joel, here's a pic of my Leslie btw...
It's been some project getting the B and Leslie refurbed...

Pulled everything out... stripped, sanded, bleached, stained, and finally ended up painting it. Had the generator recapped and everything refurbished.
Bob Schleicher in Oakland did all the work (B3 genius - worked for Hammond years back). Did all the woodwork myself including the Leslie which is custom built
close to Bill Beer's specs (horn driver - JBL 2482 & bass driver is a
JBL E-140 biamped). The cabinet was originally a 21H which is a single speed... fast or off... now I have the chorale speed as well... ahh

The tube amp now just powers the horn and the solid state 300watt amp
(built into the cabinet) powers the bass. It's difficult to play loud
as the entire house shakes (neighbor's too). All the purists stay with the original Jensen's for the "sound" but I gotta say my Leslie sounds Gorgeous and absolutely screams. The components in the JBLs are so much better than Jensen... in those days anyway. The horn magnet (23 lbs) weighs more than the
bass magnet (18 lbs)! I've read where artists like Greg Rolie & Christi
McVie stipulate in their contracts to have Bill Beer (now deceased) leslies
for concerts.

There's a few hums and resonances I have to work out... then I can finally get around to playin' some music! And no longer will my speaker crap out tryin' to compete with the rest of the band!

Anyway, thanx for your recommendation... wondering how ribbons are affected by the wind noise vs. a dynamic... plus a pair of ribbons are significantly more $.
Hmm... more decisions...
Appreciate your post,
have a great New Year.
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by cedarstudios

i have a A100 and have been getting some really good results using a U47fet into a TG2 sometimes in conjuntion with a 421. Even better when tracked to 2" 16 track.

Cedar, appreciate the post,
Yeah, Chandler is high on the list as many pros have endorsed his gear. Tuff choice just picking between his various incarnations. His boxes with EQ have been raved about... especially his TG channel... but then were talking two boxes for stereo so TG2 may be the ticket.

So you use single mics top & bottom... I guess with panels off?... hey, if it's good enough for Keith Emerson!... And yer putting the 421 on the bottom I take it? Ya know I've never really plopped my ear down there to see (hear) what kinda HF information actually comes out of the bottom rotor...

Yeah, was thinking about just getting a FATSO... not only for tape simulation but in lieu of a pre... as it has transformer & harmonic generation along with compression). But you guys posting on mic combos and such are getting me psyched to get my leslie dialed in. Hope I just need to insulate the cabinet to get those resonances under control... has alittle hum going on there too... maybe the way I soldered the switch... always a pain having to take them off to get the beast thru a doorway!
Anyway, thanx for the reply man,
have a great New Year,
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

RE20 on the bottom is just about what you need.
Throw something like a pair of MD441 on 2 of the corneres that are 90° to each other.
And keep a little distance! (8" or more)

If you want go nuts use a pair of R84 ribon mics on top (carefull with the wind!).

Any difference between the 421 & 441 besides 3Khz on the top?
Reading other threads I gather ribbons are a bit darker than condensers?
mm, so what's the sonic difference using a good dynamic over the ribbon... or a condenser for that matter. I gather the dynamic is least sensitive to the wind noise?
Thanx again Nutmeg
Happy New Year
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

Dr. Chopz! Get that GTQ2 you were interested in!

On B3 I like a Coles 4038 on the bottom and a pair of small condensers on the top, preferrably Neumann KM84. Ribbons all around are nice too, but like Nutmeg said, watch out for the air.

But like Fletcher said, if you have a good player, a couple of 57s up there would work fine!

Ribbons on the bottom huh?
any thoughts between the coles, royer (121), r84. (and in general... not just for a leslie application).
and yeah, the GTQ2 is very cool... as is Mr. Tanner.

Thanx man,
have a great New Year,
TW

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Yeah Chopz, the GTQ is the way to go!

Hey Tony,
well, I've seriously paired my list down but got a ways to go as you can see from my initial post. I realize the 1073 issue has been covered but it is difficult as searching the threads (on this forum and others) are numerous and scattered. I've weeded out some serious boxes for one reason or another (BAE, Vintech, Dan Alexander, Wunder (custom John Paul Jones Pre!... I was a Zep fanatic growing up, etc.). And that list doesn't include the other tube /solid state boxes I've ruled out.

Reading the many posts (and in between the lines), you get an idea who's opinions you respect. At this level there's some serious cash to part with so I'm still debating. Sure appreciate everyone's responses here btw... you guys rock!
Happy New Year,
TW

[cdog]

Mid/Side micing is a great technique for capturing a leslie or a stereo guitar rig.

I've been using the Rode K2 for this with great results.

[John Noll]

As for the Rhodes, the Evil Twin DI sounds quite nice.

[jdunn]

Another vote for the Chandler Ltd. TG2. I used it on B3/Leslie with a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon and it sounds pretty good. Blends into the track nicely. The close mono mic was the active Royer R122. Those Royers are great on B3! So is the TG2.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by dr_chopz

Any difference between the 421 & 441 besides 3Khz on the top?
Reading other threads I gather ribbons are a bit darker than condensers?
mm, so what's the sonic difference using a good dynamic over the ribbon... or a condenser for that matter. I gather the dynamic is least sensitive to the wind noise?
Thanx again Nutmeg
Happy New Year
TW

Don't judge a mic by it's printed frequency graph!
The MD441 is very condenser like! It's pretty linear and the pattern is hypercardioid rather than the cardioid on the MD421.
The MD421 does have much more of a sound to it!

The ribbons have a little les topend, but a great transient response.
The some what rolled of topend is perfect for a lot of instruments that use a amp+cab and the transient response will give you a very transparent/detailed image.

But all in all I prefer the dynamic section for catching up less noise and for the little less extra topend.

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by cdog

Mid/Side micing is a great technique for capturing a leslie or a stereo guitar rig.

I've been using the Rode K2 for this with great results.

appreciate the reply cdog...
Although I'm after the most doppler effect I can get (using nutmegs suggestion micing the corners), I imagine using the M/S technique is the closest to how we actually hear the beast. I've never understood the advantage of M/S vs a simple XY set up as you can simply pan the XY to taste which I assume is what the decoding process does no?

Thanx man

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by John Noll

As for the Rhodes, the Evil Twin DI sounds quite nice.

Thanx for the post John,
Guess I'll have to add this to my DI list (TD-1 & Reddi so far) as after a little DD you guys seem to like the Evil Twin. Not a lot of info though about Eclair Engineering... no web site that I can find & Mercenary has a blurb they're no longer carring it as he's selling direct. Would like to compare specs & such.
And nice studio btw...

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

Don't judge a mic by it's printed frequency graph!
The MD441 is very condenser like! It's pretty linear and the pattern is hypercardioid rather than the cardioid on the MD421.
The MD421 does have much more of a sound to it!

The ribbons have a little les topend, but a great transient response.
The some what rolled of topend is perfect for a lot of instruments that use a amp+cab and the transient response will give you a very transparent/detailed image.

But all in all I prefer the dynamic section for catching up less noise and for the little less extra topend.

Nutmeg,
thanx once again for your comments...
was trying to check out an equipment list of yours to see what mic pres you have but your links don't point to a studio... at least that I can decipher. Just curious...

[dr_chopz]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Another vote for the Chandler Ltd. TG2. I used it on B3/Leslie with a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon and it sounds pretty good. Blends into the track nicely. The close mono mic was the active Royer R122. Those Royers are great on B3! So is the TG2.

Hey Jason,
appreciate the suggestion...
Yeah the TG2 and GTQ2 are neck & neck... the TG getting more pro endorsements and positve reviews... and the GTQ2 having EQ as well as an internal power supply. Can't seem to find any reviews on it other than this forum though.

BTW, nice studio... and yer selection of pres are all very complimentary to each other. I've read great things about the DACS as well as Demeter... curious how you decide between all the flavors for any given application. The hyper real DACS or the warm tube Demeter or the tranny TG2.
Thanx man,
TW

[damien]

you should try the Jensen transformer based DI "Radial Engineering JDI-MK3" for the rhodes.

******//www.fullcompass.com/product/298284.html

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