I can't seem to listen to music like a producer!

[C Heat]

Two ways u can look at it perhaps:

1) Any skill can be learned through application
2) Maybe 'it's' trying to tell u somehing...

[James Lugo]

I hear what you're saying. The weird thing is I have good instincts when it comes to producing and tracking but it doesn't come from an intellectuel place. It's as though all my music comes from a primitive place but I've also studied music. It's kinda strange.

[lucey]

Hold onto that primitive thing ... any emotionless hack can be a critic. A Producer can do both, but in his own way ... there's no book on it.

[Kenny Gioia]

Stop right there. You're about to screw it all up.

Do you want to make music for Gearslutz or for fans?

Analyzing music for exercise is fine but you never want to stop listening as a fan.

I think you are well on your way to making decent sounding records that the whole world wants to listen to, rather than amazing sounding records that are no better than a good snare sound.

Don't listen to engineers. They're all idiots.

Record producers know what the fans want to hear. And you're obviously keyed into that. Don't lose it. Screw engineering. Make some good music.

My first good assisting gig was working under a famous record producer who started out as a DJ. Why was he so successful? He knew what people wanted to hear.

The fact that the stuff you're listening to is making you enjoy it in a fan way proves why it is successful.

As soon as you find a record that you can focus on the tracks, you should throw that record away. It is useless to you.

Enjoy music while you can.

Make music that people will enjoy. Not analyze.

Peace.

[GMR]

Sometimes I find some become too analitical on a mix and lose what you call that magic. Music is meant to move us! Who cares at the end of the line what pre is used or mic! Does it move you and do you connect with it is more important in my book!
Not to say I don't want great tools when tracking or good sound cuz I hate bad recordings but at the end it must evoque a feeling. There are certain songs lately I just trip on, they make me trip out, something that I hadn't felt in a long time, ever since my Iron Maiden days almost. It's good to have those feelings again as when I was 15!

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by Produceher

Stop right there. You're about to screw it all up.

Do you want to make music for Gearslutz or for fans?

Analyzing music for exercise is fine but you never want to stop listening as a fan.

I think you are well on your way to making decent sounding records that the whole world wants to listen to, rather than amazing sounding records that are no better than a good snare sound.

Don't listen to engineers. They're all idiots.

Record producers know what the fans want to hear. And you're obviously keyed into that. Don't lose it. Screw engineering. Make some good music.

My first good assisting gig was working under a famous record producer who started out as a DJ. Why was he so successful? He knew what people wanted to hear.

The fact that the stuff you're listening to is making you enjoy it in a fan way proves why it is successful.

As soon as you find a record that you can focus on the tracks, you should throw that record away. It is useless to you.

Enjoy music while you can.

Make music that people will enjoy. Not analyze.

Peace.

This is a GREAT point and well said.

[Trailerman]

If you can still get lost in music, then I say cherish it.

Automatically breaking tracks down and analysing mixes, whenever you stick on a CD for listening enjoyment is a curse. Sure, it may help us learn about techniques other people have used, but it destroys that totally instinctive, emotional pleasure we all used to get from music when we were teenagers. It's the biggest downside of making music professionally, and nobody ever warns you about it.

I still love music, but I can't stop analysing it whenever I listen, which undoubtedly takes away some of the passion. Nothing worse than listening to a track you love thinking" man, I wish they'd rolled off the top of those hihats".

If you can still get that buzz at a totally emotional level, then I say protect it. If you can find a way to analyse mixes in a controlled environment (restrict it to your studio) and still enjoy music in a traditional emotive way elsewhere, then you're onto a winner!

Jules

[Sqye]

I think it's very possible to do both.

In my case, I listen to a track 800 million times if I like it, and THEN (when I've got NOTHING ELSE INTERESTING MUSICALLY TO LISTEN TO - IT'S ALL BEEN EXHAUSTED - ALL THE HARMONY AND TEXTURES AND VOICE LEADING AND RHYTHMIC JAMMIES, AND COOL LYRIC IDEAS AND AMAZING PERFORMANCE STUFF) THEN AND ONLY THEN, do I begin to GIVE A F*CK what the f*ck*n snare is doing.

I've gotten a bit better (or whatever the adjective is) over the years. I think I'm down to 700 million times for a track I like. No seriously, though - it really depends on how interesting the song and track are to me. If the song, band, artist, performance, lyrics, etc, are all REALLY AMAZING, then I'm ****ed.

IOW, the more boring the song/ track is, the quicker I'm gonna hone in on that guitar panning and verb. Gimme a boring artist, I'll write a fr*gg*n thesis on the high hat before the song is done.

To each, his own.

[GMR]

Actually that's what I do, the song plays on a loop over and over, and after a while I start hearing the production nuances of the track!

[u b k]

james, i think one of the primary differences between your listening experiences and what charles is getting at regarding mixing is that you are already incredibly and intimately familiar with completed pieces of music, they have been produced and completed brilliantly and you are absorbing them exactly as you ought to.

but producing is so very different when you're coming at a song from the ground up, when its form is mostly (if at all) in the heads of the people creating it. to pull up a bunch of faders on an unfamiliar tune is such a sublime and unique experience; you are so unencumbered by judgments, so free of expectations, there is so much space for possibilities and new ideas.

so don't sweat it. we all, to a greater or lesser degree, produce and/or mix with our instinct. the milar dvd is not that guy's actual process, it's his best attempt to verbalize what he himself does in the realm beyond language.

so ease up, and stick with your gut. it's serving you well, no?


gregoire
del ubik

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by u b i k

james, i think one of the primary differences between your listening experiences and what charles is getting at regarding mixing is that you are already incredibly and intimately familiar with completed pieces of music, they have been produced and completed brilliantly and you are absorbing them exactly as you ought to.

but producing is so very different when you're coming at a song from the ground up, when its form is mostly (if at all) in the heads of the people creating it. to pull up a bunch of faders on an unfamiliar tune is such a sublime and unique experience; you are so unencumbered by judgments, so free of expectations, there is so much space for possibilities and new ideas.

so don't sweat it. we all, to a greater or lesser degree, produce and/or mix with our instinct. the milar dvd is not that guy's actual process, it's his best attempt to verbalize what he himself does in the realm beyond language.

so ease up, and stick with your gut. it's serving you well, no?


gregoire
del ubik

Good point - judging wip vs. finished product.

[James Lugo]

Thanks guys. Yeah, Charles' biggest message on the DVD is about make it the mixes exciting and emotionally driven. He talks about making the singer sound like a 'Star". I think that is what I react to. Some people may not dig Kelly Clarkson but I think she's brilliant and her vocal tracks make her a 'Star' to me. And I bought the record.

Thanks for all the thoughtful and thought provoking replies.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I'm a hopeless fan.

2 words for you..


Rick Rubin


He's a "fan" also. Cherish it. I wish I could listen to music like that. Even stuff I really really like, stuff I'll admit I'm a fan of (I never do that) is hard to listen to without thinking "what room mic is that?, man that comp action on the guitars is killer, this sounds like shit but the music is cool" etc etc. It's really annoying sometimes. I don't think I'll ever be like I was before I got into this business, but thats ok. I'd rather do what I do than do what I was doing before.

Anyway, DON'T CHANGE A THING. You'll regret it later.

Producher made a good point, or a few actually

BTW, I got that Kelley Clarkson disk "Breakaway", and that album is killer! Her voice is incredible, the productions great, mixes are great. I really enjoy listening to it. A diamond in a sea of crushed to death coal.

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Thanks guys. Yeah, Charles' biggest message on the DVD is about make it the mixes exciting and emotionally driven. He talks about making the singer sound like a 'Star". I think is what I react to. Some people may not dig Kelly Clarkson but I think she's brilliant and her vocal tracks make her a 'Star' to me. And I bought the record.

Thanks for all the thoughtful and thought provocing replies.

Damn straight! I dig her also. Kelly Clarkson rocks.

(Please don't bar me cuz I dig pop also)

[wallace]

Maybe just listen with an open mind and without any kind of intent, but instead of listening once then moving on to the next song, let it loop 30 times and see what naturally pops out. If you were producing or mixing it, you'd probably listen to it more than that anyway.

[Jose Mrochek]

listening like a fan is the way to go. But what if you come across a songwriter who has great ideas but doesn't know how to put these ideas in context, aka... SONG STRUCTURE. the #1 job for a producer if you ask me and for that I think one needs to go deeper than what a fan does.

[stratton]

Cool topic.

I was in the studio the other day producing a very unique vocal and piano arrangement of "Amazing Grace". I got so caught up in the performance I went into fan mode and stopped listening critically. The engineers were listening though, and made suggestions about things that I should have heard.

Honestly, it was a little embarassing but they were nice guys and I thanked them for contuing to listen after I had "checked out". I like having extra ears around.

Ken

[Oldone]

I have to listen extensively to a song to move through the fan phase. Absorption is the first phase of listening by the way. If it takes you away, then ask yourself, what melody line, instrument or vocal sound took you away from the analysis mode. Those are generally the magic points of the tune.

Once I get through the emotional response phase I can move into cold analysis, pan, EQ, compression, reverb etc.

Then I chart the songs structure i.e. intro, verse, chorus, interlude, bridge. It's surprising how many artists miss the fact that very few CD tracks have the same structure. This is kind of the mark for a good producer. A lot of beginning writers will do the basic ABABCAB format or ABCABCD structure. They miss things like intros, interludes or trying non standard structure formats which might work best for the song. A good song structure separates the pros from the novices.

[wallace]

Originally Posted by Oldone

They miss things like intros, interludes or trying non standard structure formats which might work best for the song. A good song structure separates the pros from the novices.

Good call. Outlining the song on paper, or with markers in PT is SO useful for identifying all the changes in song structure, etc. including the things you said. It's a visual thing too.

[joeq]

another vote for staying 'just the way you are'

Kenny said it all.

[RCM - Ronan]

To me great records are the ones that turn off the producer switch in me. I wish it happened more often than it does.

[lefthando]

You can always hire folks like us gearslutz to analyze the engineering details. Recognizing the emotional side of the track is a talent worth big bucks. I'd agree with everyone else, keep doing what you're doing.

[tmcconnell]

.... I mean, there must be a circumvention to your problem. Wine makers enjoy wine, and so on. t

[cdog]

James,

Thats funny because I have the exact reverse problem: I'm always focusing in on the production details, even when I'm just trying to listen for pleasure.

Its really annoying! I can't see the forest for the trees.

Maybe I need to rent a helicopter with a bong installed in it.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by cdog

James,

Thats funny because I have the exact reverse problem: I'm always focusing in on the production details, even when I'm just trying to listen for pleasure.

Funny, I spent a few years working in the film industry and I have a hard time escaping into a movie.

If there's a love scene or a suspense scene happening, I can only see the Script Supervisor in the satin Star Trek TNG jacket and the craft service table with stale Oreos and Twizzlers just out of frame.

[OHA]

Originally Posted by cdog

Thats funny because I have the exact reverse problem: I'm always focusing in on the production details, even when I'm just trying to listen for pleasure.

Ditto.. If you can be a fan when listening to stuff: Enjoy it

[laughingbear]

Sergei Rachmaninov, 2nd Piano Concert, a-minor, second movement, I think it is a Largo.... Check it out....

Or Gustav Mahler's slow movements from his symphonic work.....

Talk about emotional intelligence....

I can only imagine a bunch of you folks being ear-tortured with stuff to pay the bills that is bordering on abuse of human rights.... K.Clarkson is the very rare exeption....

I fall back to classic once I feel I loose creativity or sense.... Sometimes, when i want to re-trigger analytical stuff... it has to be John Sebastian, if it has to be emotional.... Scriabin, Ravel, Strawinsky, all kinda stuff....

I think audio engineers should have more time to "sharpen their tools", I mean ears and listen to classic as a daily exercise....talk about dynamics....

....and another vote...stay this way!

[natpub]

I don't think there is only one "way" that any given producer "listens."

[Yutaka]

James,

You are one of the good guys, I think - the artists you will be working with can trust that you will listen to the emotions and the messages in the songs. Can you imagine bringing your songs to some intellectuals who will analyse every single aspect of your songs? Keep your love for music - there will be folks who would need you for that, I think. Creating something is such a fragile and lonely process....

Great topic. Nice things for me to remind myself as well.