Studio monitors vertical VS horizontal

[Purusha]

Is there any benefit in having monitors vertical VS horizontal or vice versa?

Purusha

[Pascal Sijen]

Hello Purusha:

I posted this the other day, in reply to another post...

A typical 2-way loudspeaker, that has a tweeter over mid/woofer, when in the vertical position has symmetrical frequency response in the horizontal plane and slightly asymmetrical response in the vertical plane. Meaning that if you move off axis vertically (standing or sitting), the response is slightly different in either direction. All 2-way speakers that have this configuration suffer from this (some are worse than others). It is typically more desirable to have the horizontal response be symmetrical, so it is typically best to leave speakers with this type of design in the vertical configuration.

Another issue when laying a speaker on its side is that you will typically have more boundary interference which may adversely affect the frequency response of the speaker system (especially the HF).

I hope that helps...

Cheers!

[Dave Martin]

What Pascal said makes sense. and it also makes sense to place the speakers in the position that they were designed for, but I must say that I've used my BM15's both vertically and horizontally (In both cases, with the tweeters to the outside). And they worked just fine.

[Purusha]

Thanks. I have my Genelecs 1031A and NS10 both horizontaly placed on top of each other, because of the specially designed place where the monitors stand. NS10 are designed to be in horizontal position but the Genelecs came from the shop in vertical position. I am not so happy with my Genelecs this very moment, maybe it is also because of the horizontal position.

Purusha

[s-boogie]

hi

i used to have my genelec 1031 in vertical position and liked them...
then i moved them and used them horizontal and had problems
all over sudden...

so with the 1031 i can second this experience!

my ns10´s and my auratone t6´s are horizontal without problems.
maybe because they are in an immediate nearfield position this way,
and stand together more closely anyways...

[squeegybug]

Horizontal placement doesn't work very well, in my experience, unless the speakers are designed for that. If you place "vertical designed" speakers on their side, as you move your head horizontally you will be crossing through the separate lobes from the tweeter and woofer, and the perceived tone can change -- sometimes dramatically, depending on the speaker design. It's called comb filtering, and many speaker manufacturers caution against this placement. If you look at 2-way home theater center channel speakers that are designed for on-side orientation, you'll see that the tweeter is often shifted off-center from the woofer to minimize these effects.

You can of course easily try this yourself, it's usually easy to hear as you turn your head. I find I don't like to be so restricted in movement when mixing; I prefer to listen from several different positions. But if you don't mind staying in one place, it can work.

For 2-drive vertical designs, the null of minimum phase difference is usually midway between the tweeter and woofer. I try to set that height at ear level. If the monitor stands or desk are too tall to allow this, I far prefer to just turn the speaker upside down, with the tweeter at the bottom. As long as it's clear of the stand base or mixer panel, so you don't get too much reflection from those, this placement can work very well.

Here's a snip from Tannoy to show the sound wave interference:

[img]******//sunsetwind.com/pics/Tannoy_Monitor_4.jpg[/img]


Steve

[Brad Lunde]

As Pascal said earlier, dispersion is key to answering the question. 90% of speakers have different horiz and vert dispersion. Since studio applications require side to side movement and little up and down movement, most studio speakers are engineered for wider dispersion in the horiz plane and limited dispersion in the vertical plane. Think foglights on your car vs headlights. Most people don't think about this and then they tip a speaker on its side and wonder why it now sounds different side to side (the wide horiz is now wide vertical, the the narrower vertical is now narrower horizontal). There is the rather large surface of the console too reflect sound back up and cause some cancellation, affecting tone in a big way. So changing position from vertical to horiz CAN create some rather significant problems.

In larger 3 way speakers, the manuf often provides ways to change tweeter location to make it work in either horiz or vertical. ATC does this, I think ADAM does, Genelec, etc.

Brad

[lefthando]

I can only speak for Genelec monitors, but if you read the manual that comes with them, you will note that the units CAN be used in the horizontal position. However, you are instructed to rotate the HF driver 90 degrees to maintain the proper dispersion. There are also tips in the manual about positioning the speakers to optimise their performance.

I'm certain other manufacturers would give similar instructions about the response and dispertion of their respective units.

[jpupo74]

You should read the manuals...the company usually provides this kind of information, it depends on the speaker.

Pupo

[Purusha]

Originally Posted by lefthando

I can only speak for Genelec monitors, but if you read the manual that comes with them, you will note that the units CAN be used in the horizontal position. However, you are instructed to rotate the HF driver 90 degrees to maintain the proper dispersion. There are also tips in the manual about positioning the speakers to optimise their performance.

I did turn the tweater so that the Genelec writen on it is in the right position. But the tweater seems very symetrical anyway, so why turn it at all?

Any one else who has experience with 1031A?

Regards, Purusha

[Purusha]

I have one other question:

What about NS10, is it OK to have them vertically placed?

Because if I put my 1031A in vertical position than I have to do the same with Yamaha (no space for them otherwise).

Purusha

[obostic]

Originally Posted by lefthando

I can only speak for Genelec monitors, but if you read the manual that comes with them, you will note that the units CAN be used in the horizontal position. However, you are instructed to rotate the HF driver 90 degrees to maintain the proper dispersion. There are also tips in the manual about positioning the speakers to optimise their performance.

I'm certain other manufacturers would give similar instructions about the response and dispertion of their respective units.

Actually, the 1031a manual advices you not to position the speakers horizontally, but if you do, for cosmetic purposes you can rotate the tweeter so that the word "Genelec" is displayed correctly.

[SoZo]

As far as I understand the only speakers you can use in a Horizontal position are an MTM configuration...


Mid Tweeter Mid

[Pascal Sijen]

Originally Posted by SoZo

As far as I understand the only speakers you can use in a Horizontal position are an MTM configuration...


Mid Tweeter Mid

A traditional MTM / D’Appolito speaker (with both mid/woofers operating across the same frequency range) has some significant response "issues" in a horizontal configuration. The only way to get a speaker like that to work well, is to run one of the mid/woofs only for bass, so that you do not get a lot destructive inference between the two drivers in the MF range (think of it as a 2.5 way). The cut-off frequency that is chosen for this one mid/woof is dependant on how wide the Mid/Woof spacing is in the cabinet. This type of design would still yield asymmetrical response and would require a mirror image design.

The reason you see a lot of horizontal MTM speakers, especially in consumer world, is because esthetically it looks better.

Cheers!

[Rep]

Originally Posted by Pascal Sijen

A

The reason you see a lot of horizontal MTM speakers, especially in consumer world, is because esthetically it looks better.

Cheers!

Not always...
I think the real reason is because it fits over the console better ,
argosy console ....as the C24 argosy-console, will place the Monitors way over the head ,
the tweeter unless laying down would be a foot above the head... having to be seriously positioned down ,
... would yield a very small sweet spot.!

[dirk]

Speakers are placed flat because the recording engeneer can then see the musicians in the recording room more easely.

[Purusha]

I turned the speakers on one side in vertical position. So far I noticed that the bottom has more compact sound on 1031A and it sounds less bright than the horizontal one. It works better this way. thumbsup

Does anyone know if the tweater on Yamaha needs to be rotated also or it doesn't matter on NS10s?


BTW thanks for your infos.


Purusha

[scruffydog]

In his old studio..michael Cretu places the BM 15 A's on their side with the tweeters inside.
As far as I know..in a tight space at least.. perhaps the most important bit is to have the tweeters at ear level.

[Purusha]

My ears are right between the twiter and the bass speaker when I am in my chear, so I guess I have them in the right position. Thanks.

Purusha

[SpaceChild]

Yamaha brought out NS10s for both vertical and horizontal configuration. As long as you have the front labels the right way up, you have them placed the way they were designed to.


Spacey

[derker]

Anyone use their HR824s horizontally?

[dirk]

Originally Posted by SpaceChild

Yamaha brought out NS10s for both vertical and horizontal configuration. As long as you have the front labels the right way up, you have them placed the way they were designed to.


Spacey

Do you realy think that the horizontal model has different components/value's than the vertical model?

Or is just the logo placed somewhere else on the speaker?

[Purusha]

Originally Posted by SpaceChild

Yamaha brought out NS10s for both vertical and horizontal configuration. As long as you have the front labels the right way up, you have them placed the way they were designed to.


Spacey

What do you mean by the right way up?

Purusha

[Pascal Sijen]

Originally Posted by Rep

Not always bud,

I think the real reason is because it fits over the console better ,
argosy console ....as the C24 argosy-console, will place the Monitors way over the head ,
the tweeter unless laying down would be a foot above the head... having to be seriously positioned down ,
... would yield a very small sweet spot.!

My comments were specifically regarding MTM designs, which are common in consumer applications, where they tend to be used as horizontal center channel speakers.

As a side note, if the tweeter is too high and you cannot aim the monitors down towards the listening area, an alternative to laying a speaker on its side would be to flip it upside down. This may not always yield satisfactory results, but it is something worth trying.

At the end of the day, use whatever configuration works best for your particular application.

Cheers!

[TER]

I've owned 3 sets of MTM mains (Dynaudio 1.5, Earthworks 6.3, Audix Nile X), and without a doubt they sound better oriented vertically. Tipping the monitors (usually down) so that the woofers are equidistant from your listening position is very helpful. Horizontal placement of MTM speakers can result in great imaging in one spot, but for those of us that move across a console, or turn our heads, the arrival time discrepancies between the four woofers can be really problematic. Sound Anchors in Florida makes some KILLER adjustable stands, the best I've seen.

I've always loved the imaging of Tannoy's concentric speakers, but have never liked the sound of them! I bought some DMT10s a few years back and just could not get used to them enough to keep them around. Pinpoint imaging, though... awesome really.

-tom

[DaveH]

I have found this to be of interest.

******//www.bobhodas.com/pub1.html

Might contain more information than you want.
But there are some examples of horizontal and vertical
placement of speakers. Then more details about room.

[SpaceChild]

Originally Posted by dirk

Do you realy think that the horizontal model has different components/value's than the vertical model?

Or is just the logo placed somewhere else on the speaker?

I <i>assume</i> that the components are most likely similar, but they may be differently (time) aligned.


Spacey

[SpaceChild]

Originally Posted by Purusha

What do you mean by the right way up?

Purusha

I mean reading from left to right, and not from right to left, top to bottom, or bottom to top


Spacey

[Purusha]

OK, I see now. They actually made two types of NS10 monitors. If this is judged from the text written on them, than I have them in wrong vertical position now. I can only have both monitors in one position and so far I like my 1031A much better vertically placed. They sound less bright and more compact.

Yeah, what can I do, life is tough and than you die?

Purusha

[mattianlaseppia]

ns10 must have tweeter internal or external (in horizontal configuration)