Studio monitors vertical VS horizontal

[Studiocat]

Martin Pilchner, pro acoustician and designer, walked into my studio immediately noticed that I had my speakers on their sides (NS10s and HR824s). tutt He said they are much more "forgiving" vertically. If you place them horizontally and move your listening position left to right, you're introducing time differences between the tweeter and woofer. As previous posters have mentioned: comb filtering.

I bet the "vertical" and "horizontal" designs of various NS10s are just sticker placement!

I would go vertical unless explicitly told otherwise by your speaker manufacturer.

A

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Pascal Sijen

My comments were specifically regarding MTM designs, which are common in consumer applications, where they tend to be used as horizontal center channel speakers.

Which is a painfully clear indication of the poor understanding about the issue at most companies.

The idea with a center speaker is to nail the dialog (and other sounds) to the screen and the center of the soundstage. In a stero setup you can get relatively stable middle focus if the speakers and room is well designed but a center more or less totally mitigates problems with moving sideways and/or several listeners/viewers over a large area in the room.

Now it should be clear that the center channel possibly needs better and more even horizontal dispersion in order to project the same tonality across the listening area. An MTM layout can have symetrical loobing around the crossover point but there will be serious combfilter effects between the two woofers that typically results in a broad dip in the midrange.

Short story: an MTM speaker on its side as a center is stupid with a big S.


One could also question the use of MTM's as main monitors since they have uneven vertical dispersion and because of that uneven power response in the room.

It's not very wise to design a speaker with narrow directivity in two of the middle octaves. An MTM-like layout is better designed as a MMTMM or WMTMW solution. This way the reduced vertical directivity can be maintained further down in frequency and the response will be smoother.

Prefereably the tweeter is designed with a slight waveguide/horn loading to steer the lower end dispersion and making it match the dispersion of the mid/midwoofer in the crossover range. A ribbon may make sense as well but they have their own set of problems to deal with.


/Peter

[dangoudie]

Originally Posted by DaveH

I have found this to be of interest.

Bob Hodas Acoustic Analysis : Speaker Placement and Acoustic Environment Effects on Nearfield Monitor™ Systems

Might contain more information than you want.
But there are some examples of horizontal and vertical
placement of speakers. Then more details about room.

That was absolutely fascinating. Explains a lot.

I recently took to mounting my KRK RP8's (that I'm not that happy with anyway) horizontally because I found myself moving up/down quite a lot while mixing causing me to get a very different depending on whether I was at tweeter or woofer height. Mounting them sideways has solved that problem and I haven't noticed any side-effects. In fact the mixes I've done since have been an improvement on my previous work.

[dangoudie]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Which is a painfully clear indication of the poor understanding about the issue at most companies.

The idea with a center speaker is to nail the dialog (and other sounds) to the screen and the center of the soundstage. In a stero setup you can get relatively stable middle focus if the speakers and room is well designed but a center more or less totally mitigates problems with moving sideways and/or several listeners/viewers over a large area in the room.

Now it should be clear that the center channel possibly needs better and more even horizontal dispersion in order to project the same tonality across the listening area. An MTM layout can have symetrical loobing around the crossover point but there will be serious combfilter effects between the two woofers that typically results in a broad dip in the midrange.

Short story: an MTM speaker on its side as a center is stupid with a big S.


One could also question the use of MTM's as main monitors since they have uneven vertical dispersion and because of that uneven power response in the room.

It's not very wise to design a speaker with narrow directivity in two of the middle octaves. An MTM-like layout is better designed as a MMTMM or WMTMW solution. This way the reduced vertical directivity can be maintained further down in frequency and the response will be smoother.

Prefereably the tweeter is designed with a slight waveguide/horn loading to steer the lower end dispersion and making it match the dispersion of the mid/midwoofer in the crossover range. A ribbon may make sense as well but they have their own set of problems to deal with.


/Peter

I believe this has been address by companies like Focal where their Twin 6 monitors split the low end handling between the two M's. One does full range and one does just low-end which removes the mid-range interference.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

That was absolutely fascinating. Explains a lot.

I recently took to mounting my KRK RP8's (that I'm not that happy with anyway) horizontally because I found myself moving up/down quite a lot while mixing causing me to get a very different depending on whether I was at tweeter or woofer height. Mounting them sideways has solved that problem and I haven't noticed any side-effects. In fact the mixes I've done since have been an improvement on my previous work.

that is Fine that you " Like It " but your still wrong ... .the science cannot be disputed
all the mastering setups here in LA we have could not function that way on a pro level,
... but hey, if you like what it does for your projects that is fine ...
if you get some Pro monitoring you will understand .... krk is utter crap especially on the sub 500hz , get some Adams3as or barefoots27 or PCMs like we implement and you will see

[ears2thesky]

I use M-Audio EX66s which are a MTM design.
The manufacturer specifies vertical placement is required. I've tried them both ways and, the vertical is the only usable orientation.
These monitors are designed do offer wide horizontal dispersion with very limited vertical dispersion, so when they are not placed as specified they don't sound right.

[The MPCist]

Who cares how they're placed if they give you the results you want or like.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by Purusha

Yeah, what can I do, life is tough and than you die?

Purusha

Yes... you live, you learn and then... you die and don't get to take advantage of it.

Cheers,

Otto

[Karloff70]

Just a question: Hypothetically, what exactly do you lot reckon WOULD be different inside NS-10's that have the text print either suggesting vertical or horizontal use???? Are the crossover boards mounted on the side (=bottom) of the box?? lol

Seriously though, although NS-10's do work horizontally, I always preferred them by miles standing up like any other speaker, with the tweeters to the slight outside. Treble over bass. Treble outside of bass. That's the shape of the music, so..........Could never understand people setting up the bass to the outside and the tweeters to the inside (in horizontal). Warped. Can't stand it.

[Oscar G. Hinde]

I've read in a lot of trustworthy texts that NS10 were not designed to work horizontally. It was more of a trend thing. I don't like horizontal placing anyway. Both my NS10 and P22A are vertically placed. Horizontal never sounded right with these sorts of speakers.

[Russell Dawkins]

I think that generally the only type of speaker that has a hope of working well when the drivers are arrayed horizontally has very steep (as in 48dB/octave) crossover characteristics, typically from having the crossing over done in the digital domain, before the power amps.
Having said that. I don't hear any obvious problems with my K+H 0300s, even though the crossover between the woofer and the mid dome happens at 650Hz and the driver spacing is close to one wavelength at that frequency. The crossover is analog and 24dB/octave.

[ZFire]

Ironically my Tannoy Reveals sound significantly better and more balanced in a horizontal orientation, the opposite of what the manual goes to pains to say is not recommended! I suspect its because they are quite close to the wall, so I'm probably giving up a bit of imaging accuracy for a better frequency curve.

Bottom line is just try it! In 10 minutes you'll know what works for you.

[UnMix Studio]

Great info in tis thread.
Just place my Adam A7s on their side. After 2 years, i'm now getting a better image then vertical. I'm able to check the image and such on the JBLs and it's just as I hear them on nthe A7s. Whatever works for your room, ears i guess?

[beingmf]

Old thread, I know The last days I've been struggling with some mixes (due to my slightly faulty judgements on location), I even brought my Heybrooks from the living room up in the studio in order to get a 4th (!) picture. Other speakers are Tannoy DMT's, Auratones, and NS10's.
Long story short, the biggest difference when switching speakers was always the NS10's – horizontally, because of the labelling. What nonsense is this?
2 hours ago I thought: let's set them up vertically... OMG!
So that's how they're supposed to sound! Tight, focused, pretty pleasant to listen. Beforehand they were dull, washy, unfocused. I was close to selling them!

I couldn't believe my ears, that's why I was looking for a GS affirmation now
I better had looked when I got them.

btw. Never ever mix on Heybrooks )

[SteelyDani]

Originally Posted by s-boogie

hi

i used to have my genelec 1031 in vertical position and liked them...
then i moved them and used them horizontal and had problems
all over sudden...

so with the 1031 i can second this experience!

my ns10´s and my auratone t6´s are horizontal without problems.
maybe because they are in an immediate nearfield position this way,
and stand together more closely anyways...

The same here.

[Capstan Cappy]

Originally Posted by scruffydog

In his old studio..michael Cretu places the BM 15 A's on their side with the tweeters inside.
As far as I know..in a tight space at least.. perhaps the most important bit is to have the tweeters at ear level.

yes at earlevel but that goes for every system unless they are high-up in the wall but even them are pointed to your ears..but this setup here is a mistake, placing tweeters inside will narrow your stereo image , whatever comes from the woofer is mono , put them butt to butt and the low-freq responce will be much more homogene , i never get these type of setups, whats the use of panning in this situation? it will never transalte correctly to systems that IS placed correctly

[Zep Dude]

My Adam S3A's are designed for either orientation but in both my previous room and my current room I've preferred them vertical. Especially in my current room, which is better acoustically than the previous, the imaging sounded rather smeared in the horizontal orientation. The sound just locked when I put them vertically.

[Bassmankr]

First, all speakers react to the room they are in, even nearfields so try all FOUR positions (vertical tweeters up / vertical tweeters down / horizontal tweeters in / horizontal tweeters out), as well as physical positions in the room and the toe in angle. Get a buddy, a tape measure so you can set both speakers up the same distance from the listening position, some reference CD's, some beer, and take an afternoon to find the spot and speaker rotation where you get the most balanced sound from your speakers running flat. Make sure you check how big the sweet spot is also. Not only will this "set the speaker position" but it will also let you learn the acoustics of your room.

[macartie]

With nearfields, it's extremely important to have the tweeters at ear level. The wavelengths of high frequencies are much shorter than low frequencies (obviously!), so they are therefore more directional.

Many people put the speakers on their side just to get the tweeters at ear level. That's great, but if the speakers aren't designed to be horizontal, you'll have phase issues between the low- and high-frequency drivers (it will take sound longer to reach your ear from the low frequency drivers if they are on the outside).

The obvious solution is to place the nearfields vertically but upside down. Problem solved.

[Zep Dude]

Obviously, changing orientation on any speakers changes where the bass drivers are in relation to the room. Moving the bass even a few inches can drastically effect bass response. As a general rule, the bass drivers should not be at a half way point between floor-ceiling or any other dimension. With an 8ft ceiling, a standard listening position could put the drivers close to this half way point. With my Adams, vertical orientation with midrange drivers on top puts the bass driver off of this half way point (floor-ceiling).

[Kingtone]

My auratone 5C sound so much better vertically than horizontally

[Studiocat]

Originally Posted by macartie

The obvious solution is to place the nearfields vertically but upside down. Problem solved.

This is what I do! Alternatively, prop the backs of the speakers up with something (eg foam) so that the tweeters point down at your ears...

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by macartie

With nearfields, it's extremely important to have the tweeters at ear level. The wavelengths of high frequencies are much shorter than low frequencies (obviously!), so they are therefore more directional.

Many people put the speakers on their side just to get the tweeters at ear level. That's great, but if the speakers aren't designed to be horizontal, you'll have phase issues between the low- and high-frequency drivers (it will take sound longer to reach your ear from the low frequency drivers if they are on the outside).

The obvious solution is to place the nearfields vertically but upside down. Problem solved.

I agree with your answer, (upside down is better) but for a different reason. The speakers cannot be tilted on their sides usually due to dispersion issues. A speaker designed vertical will typically have dispersion optimized for the horizontal plane since its where you need it most-with a trade off of narrower vertical dispersion. Rotate the speaker 90 degrees to its side and the wide horiz become wide vertical, narrow vertical becomes narrow horizontal and things are usually very messed up.

In addition, its important to know the acoustical center of your speaker-that's what needs to be ear level. With ATC's, the midrange in the acoustical center. With two ways, it can often be the spot between the woofer and tweeter.

Brad

[erikdrink]

I have placed my monitors with the woofers and tweeters down! This way I dont have to decide between horizontal and vertical!

[dasnub]

For what it's worth, the manual for my focal cms65s says the speakers can be placed in any position. They even suggest upside down when tweeters must be lower to be at correct height.