500 series modules and 50Hz (EU) regulators issue ?

[Washington]

In a recent thread pertaining to 110V and 220V equipment usage in a same setup, Fletcher mentionned the following :

Originally Posted by Fletcher

One other interesting thing I picked up a few weeks ago... a 500 Series frame designer was explaining to me why most 500 Series stuff sounds like ass in the EU. The regulators in the great majority of the frames are designed for use with 60Hz power and drop out of regulation when 50Hz power is applied... which allows AC to travel on what should be the DC rails in the unit causing the units plugged into those frames to sound like ass.

My alarm bell rang a bit. I made a few phonecalls, at least enough to gather info on some particular units, and it seems for instance that all Shadow Hills modules run OK in the EU.

Still... is there anybody with knowledge AND patience who could chime in and try to make the hows and whys of the issue understandable to the average Bedroom Pete ? Most notably, [humbly asking]what should one look for in the tech specs of lunchbox processors in order to guarantee 50Hz/220V compatibility ?

Thanx a lot in advance.

[G-Spot]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I did search for a while for a 50Hz to 60Hz converter in order to get it working with a 220 to 115V step down transformer and have some gear from the US to work "properly" in Europe. I actually found a frequency converter but it was a huge device and was really expensive. I managed to talk with some Germany electrical eng. in a forum and he explained me that one of the things that can happen when running 60Hz devices at 50Hz is that they will probably get hotter but he did not mention what it could/would do to the sound quality... anyway, afterwards I forgot about it all together.

But back to topic... which lunchbox processors/modules were than designed for 60Hz, for 50Hz, and for both?

[Tom H]

No issues here with a BAE 11 space rack, diverse modules.

There are are a bunch of 500 series manufacturers from countries running on 230V/50Hz. AL.SO, Buzz, Elysia, JLM Audio, TK audio, just to name a few. I would assume they would spot any problems, if any, during their product development.

Interested in some insight on this.

[Washington]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Thinking of it, if what Fletcher mentionned is indeed a regulation issue (an AC "leak" so to speak), it should be the fact of the host lunchbox only (the PSU, actually), right? Not the modules themselves?

Or...?

[nosebleedaudio]

This is a classic Fletcher making a comment about something he knows very little about..Sorry...

The difference between 50 and 60 Hz is VERY little to NO difference in regulation, the regulators do NOT care what frequency the AC is ONLY how well the main caps filter that DC ripple AND is their enough voltage OVER the unregulated voltage for the regulators to function properly...For example; 16V requires at least 19 to 20 volts at the regulators INPUT...
Most need around 3 Volt minimum, 4 to 5 is better..BUT that also depends on other things..such as how DEEP is the ripple in the resulting sawtooth under load...

On the phantom supply I designed/built for my JM-130 mic pre there is NO ripple on the input of the 48V regulators, I went the extra mile to reduce this to a VERY low level...Does this make some HUGE difference??? All I care about is its as good as I can get it...IMHO....

So my point is; you don't do anything different for 50Hz than for 60Hz..At least I would do the exact same thing...

And YES the caps ARE being charged MORE often in the same time frame..60Hz that is...

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Washington

Thanks for the replies so far.

Thinking of it, if what Fletcher mentionned is indeed a regulation issue (an AC "leak" so to speak), it should be the fact of the host lunchbox only (the PSU, actually), right? Not the modules themselves?

Or...?

Yes It would be the Lunch Box that would be affected, BUT I have measured the Unregulated voltage on the API Lunch Box before and the voltage was over 25Volts (per rail) IF I remember correctly...Way over the 3-4 volt minimum...

Also consider this fact; some use half wave rectification compared to full wave, equivalent of 60Hz to 120Hz...Huge difference..BUT the designer simply adds MORE capacitance..And this is totally dependent on the LOAD expected; light load needs less than a heavy load...

Power amps deal with this ALL the time, and the main voltage is Unregulated...

What COULD have an affect on the regulators is the Main AC voltage..IF it drops too low the secondary voltage on the transformer will ALSO drop the same percentage..120V to say 100V would result in the voltage being lower on the unregulated side of the supply..

Maybe a tech from the UK can tell us for sure what the typical line voltage IS..
220V? 230V? 240V?
In the USA its more like 120/240V..BUT this is dependent on where and other things...This is what I have measured many times in MY area...120V..

[pan60]

no expert but in a recent chat i was given some info very similar to what Fletcher states.
seems like it made sense to me. but i am not a electrical engineer so the experts will have to hash that out: )~

[Tom H]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Maybe a tech from the UK can tell us for sure what the typical line voltage IS..
220V? 230V? 240V?

Not a tech, but I believe the UK voltage should be 230V by now, but still measures 240V in a lot of cases. In Holland 230V is the EU norm, coming from 220V.

[brewery]

while it should be 230V throughout the EU, i get a pretty solid 223V here in germany. (console psus are aligned to 220V)

[Tom H]

I am actually curious what Tim (APA) and Nathan (Buzz) have to say about this subject; they collaborate on modules and a frame for 500 series in both the US and New Zealand. I think if there were electricity issues they are certainly the guys who would adress it in their products.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by pan60

no expert but in a recent chat i was given some info very similar to what Fletcher states.
seems like it made sense to me. but i am not a electrical engineer so the experts will have to hash that out: )~

I have never heard of a supply being designed differently for 50Hz vs 60Hz..
I would build them the same..
And IF AC was getting in as Fletcher mentioned you WOULD hear it VERY clearly...Plus all the other crap on the AC line...

As long as the voltage does NOT drop too low, then ANY well designed supply should work just fine...
That is why I asked about the typical voltage in the UK...

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Tom H

I am actually curious what Tim (APA) and Nathan (Buzz) have to say about this subject; they collaborate on modules and a frame for 500 series in both the US and New Zealand. I think if there were electricity issues they are certainly the guys who would adress it in their products.

The fact is IF it was a big issue it would NOT be ONLY the Lunch Box ect...See what I mean???

You want the AC voltage to be within a certain percentage for the supply to function as designed..Too low OR too high would be BAD..

The modules should NOT be affected by this, they have NO control over the regulators in the supply...

[Tom H]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

The fact is IF it was a big issue it would NOT be ONLY the Lunch Box ect...See what I mean???

Yes, totally!

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

The modules should NOT be affected by this, they have NO control over the regulators in the supply...

And that's exactly the reason I like the format so much, I can purchase a module from any country and screw it in my rack/lunch box whatever; it should work. I can also take the modules around the globe easily.

With 19'' rack gear this isn't always the case.

[Tom H]

I think it will be usefull if some more manufacturers would chime in to clear up this myth. The same goes for 500 series users from around the world.

I am totally convinced for myself that there are no issues with using the gear I have in my studio, but I would hate to see this rumour being taken for reality by some people, we all know how the internet works...

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Tom H

I think it will be usefull if some more manufacturers would chime in to clear up this myth. The same goes for 500 series users from around the world.

I am totally convinced for myself that there are no issues with using the gear I have in my studio, but I would hate to see this rumour being taken for reality by some people, we all know how the internet works...

I agree 100%+++++
My point is if it IS a problem how come MANY from the UK have NOT mentioned it, at least I have not seen ANY thread here regarding this so called problem...

This would be VERY easy to confirm..

[emrr]

I don't see why anyone needs their hands held here; manufacturers already publish specs on power supplies. I believe it is required by law. Here we go:

Mercenary Audio - API L200PS Power Supply for API 500V and L200 Racks

[NathanEldred]

I've never had this reported as a problem, and we've sold plenty of 500 gear to UK, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

Tim would be able to answer more from a technical perspective.

[Tim Farrant]

Mike is entirely correct, in a properly designed power supply where there is sufficient headroom for the regulators then the 50/60Hz makes no difference. I will add that power transformers made from steel laminations are more prone to 50/60Hz changes in that they are usually designed to a specific frequency. This may result in them running hotter with a lower ouput when not at the design frequency, but generally this won't be an issue either. Transformers made from ferrite (eg toroidal) do not suffer from this problem.

Tim.

[Washington]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Mike is entirely correct, in a properly designed power supply where there is sufficient headroom for the regulators then the 50/60Hz makes no difference. I will add that power transformers made from steel laminations are more prone to 50/60Hz changes in that they are usually designed to a specific frequency. This may result in them running hotter with a lower ouput when not at the design frequency, but generally this won't be an issue either. Transformers made from ferrite (eg toroidal) do not suffer from this problem.

Tim.

... and that, if I got it right, concerns the Lunchbox transformer and not the modules' one, right ?

Besides, I remember Great River has a double width preamp due to the size of the unit's transformer. Makes me wonder how such admittedly audio gems like Shadow Hills Mono Gama can pack 3 of them in a 500-series volume...

[Tom H]

That's clear Tim, Cheers! Also 2 Nathan and Mike. thumbsup

[Tim Farrant]

Originally Posted by Washington

... and that, if I got it right, concerns the Lunchbox transformer and not the modules' one, right ?

Besides, I remember Great River has a double width preamp due to the size of the unit's transformer. Makes me wonder how such admittedly audio gems like Shadow Hills Mono Gama can pack 3 of them in a 500-series volume...

Not sure what you mean Washington. The Lunchbox has limited power capacity, and will not power a full compliment of the higher power modules. This is to do with the power transformer power rating, not the frequency of operation.