piano in the studio

[lowswing]

I found out that i can have a lot more work in my studio if i'll bring in a good piano.
i can't afford one now but i can rent for unlimited time a very good sounding mini-grand piano for ca.100$ a month.
this piano has very warm sound and techniclly in very good shape.
this situation raise a lot of questions (and many more to come..):
1. how often a professional studio brings in a tunner for the piano?
2. should i be worry about noise coming from the piano(strings ring?other mechanical noise?) when standing unplayed in a room where i record drums/band
3. the recording room in my studio is not very big (5.5x6.5x3.3m) yet very "wet"(what make it one of the best drum rooms in town :-), are screens around the piano a must for this room?
4. is there a way to be sure that this piano is the one to go with BEFORE I bring it to the studio?
5. are mini-grands comfterable for miking? (i always recorded only normal or very big grandpianos)

any other idea/thought will be very welcome.
thanx for telp
GUY

[BevvyB]

1. how often a professional studio brings in a tuner for the piano?

Every time there's a session that needs it ie Classical, Jazz, critical appllications. For rock n roll, depends, use your skill and judgement, if clients mention the piano before they come, ask them

2. should i be worry about noise coming from the piano(strings ring?other mechanical noise?) when standing unplayed in a room where i record drums/band

The main problem with other players in the room is the pedals making clunking sounds

3. the recording room in my studio is not very big (5.5x6.5x3.3m) yet very "wet"(what make it one of the best drum rooms in town :-), are screens around the piano a must for this room?

Wet is good. Piano's sound rotten without a good room. Without the room mics pianos all sound shit (unless you're going for an effect)

4. is there a way to be sure that this piano is the one to go with BEFORE I bring it to the studio?

If you have the opportunity, ask all your pianist friends to try out a selection of pianos independantly. They'll all choose the same one.

5. are mini-grands comfterable for miking? (i always recorded only normal or very big grandpianos)

Yes

--------

If you're renting it's a mixed bag, just try and get the piano that has a nice top end, isn't too muddy in the middle, and has some defined bass. Going for a slightly overall bright sounding piano isn't a bad idea for general use.

You've got to get piano players to choose it. You may be one yourself, but get second and third opinions.

You can get quite a good sound with uprights if they're in the correct room. saying that, I chose a beautiful upright for a studio owner friend of mine, and then he stuck it in his worst room for cosmetic reasons. So now it sounds like any other piece of shit.

Oh well.

[Curious G]

There's a big thread over at rap on the tuning issue:

tuning

[littledog]

Bev's advice is good, except i think he misunderstood question 2. While the strings will resonate to other instruments a little bit, most strings are actually damped when not being used, which just leaves the high treble. If the piano is closed up, that sound would be pretty inaudible in most cases. You can always toss a sound blanket over the piano for even more inaudibility.

I have the piano tuned every session. If it is a multiple day session (two or threee days in a row) it's still prefereable to get it touched up each day, but depending on the piano and the weather (and how hard it's being pounded) you can sometimes get away with just one initial tuning. A top professional studio doing classical music will have a tuner at the session touching up notes as needed throughout the day.

It's not a bad idea to have a tuning hammer and a couple of mutes and learn to at least touch up some unisons yourself. On a lot of pianos there tends to be one or two strings that go out before the rest, so it saves a lot of time and money to hit those yourself.

As far as baby grands go, the biggest disadvantage is lack of bass string length. For me, if the piano is not at least 5'8" (preferably 5'10") than you may be actualy better off timbrally with a good quality vertical (upright). A 5'1" baby grand, for instance, is not going to get you any work from a serious pianist. More a piece of decorative furniture.

[littledog]

Originally posted by Curious G
There's a big thread over at rap on the tuning issue:

tuning

Wow! That was good for a laugh! Now I'm reminded why I don't hang there - bad for my blood pressure.

A piano in a studio need only be tuned every three months. ...

[Curious G]

I hear you littledog, r.a.p. is kinda like the car wreck that although tragic and gruesome you can't help but stare at (just like a lot of NG's). There are some relevent comments if you can filter 'em out. The level of flaming and antagonism there keeps me from posting. Guess I was just born to be mild.

I hope there's something redeeming in that thread that lowswing can take away.

[Roland]

Another for what Bevy said!

Little Dog is also right. Biggest problem with smaller grands is the lack of tone in the bass. Personally I haven't heard many pianos under 7ft I'm happy recording, but then I record mostly classical or jazz when it comes to piano's. Only problem with a small ambient room acoustic is that it may sound a little "cluttered" with a piano. Possibly a few stratigically placed drapes or curtains that can be pulled across walls as needed may help. Tunning should be done just before every session and will often require "touching up" during breaks, depending on who is playing, how hard they are on the instrument and how well the pins are set.

Regards


Roland

[BevvyB]

Originally posted by littledog
It's not a bad idea to have a tuning hammer and a couple of mutes and learn to at least touch up some unisons yourself. On a lot of pianos there tends to be one or two strings that go out before the rest, so it saves a lot of time and money to hit those yourself.

Um, this advice is, erm, hilarious, dangerous, to be actively encouraged, and actively avoided...

...depending on who's doing it!!!

....(rolling on floor imagining various know it all people thinking they have good hearing 'touching up' before a big session rofl!!)

[Roland]

Originally posted by BevvyB
Um, this advice is, erm, hilarious, dangerous, to be actively encouraged, and actively avoided...

...depending on who's doing it!!!

....(rolling on floor imagining various know it all people thinking they have good hearing 'touching up' before a big session rofl!!)

ROFLMAO


I only just read that part of it!

My Dad was a professional piano tuner, reckoned it took half an hour to learn, years to perfect. Needless to say I would also strongly advise anyone (apart from an experienced tuner) against "tinkering" with a piano's tunning. Good tuners "set" the pins and inexperienced fiddling can open a real can of worms.


regards

Roland

[Etnier]

I would suggest avoiding any grand-format piano under 6 feet. You can gain a lot of tuning stability by installing a humidity-control system called Damp-Chaser...

******//www.dampp-chaser.com/

...assuming the folks renting you the piano will let you have it installed.

[littledog]

Originally posted by Roland
ROFLMAO


I only just read that part of it!

My Dad was a professional piano tuner, reckoned it took half an hour to learn, years to perfect. Needless to say I would also strongly advise anyone (apart from an experienced tuner) against "tinkering" with a piano's tunning. Good tuners "set" the pins and inexperienced fiddling can open a real can of worms.

Well, perhaps i wasn't clear...

I never said buying a hammer and would enable you to tune a piano. I'm only talking about touching up the stray unison here and there, which could make the difference between being able to finish a session or having to cancel the rest of the day.

Naturally, i would expect that the piano owner would take it upon themselves to consult with a competent pro piano technician to learn the basic do's and don'ts of basic tuning hammer technique. (Proper torque angle, approaching intonation from above not below, etc.)

i think it is essential for every studio owner to be able to do basic maintenance on their equipment. owning a tuning hammer is no more dangerous than owning a soldering iron - with either one it is incumbent on the owner to learn how to use it properly, or you can end up doing a lot more harm than good.

most of us can't afford to keep a piano tech on staff. so you do what you gotta do.

i've got an 1897 steinway B, and i've had to do on the spot maintenance of all kinds - sticking dampers, squeaking pedals, etc. No, a beginner shouldn't try that stuff. but you shouldn't be afraid to learn either.

Anyway, glad i was able to provide some unintentional amusement for y'all, but you can get up off the floor now. your pants are getting dirty...

[Roland]

Originally posted by littledog
Well, perhaps i wasn't clear...

I never said buying a hammer and would enable you to tune a piano. I'm only talking about touching up the stray unison here and there, which could make the difference between being able to finish a session or having to cancel the rest of the day.

Naturally, i would expect that the piano owner would take it upon themselves to consult with a competent pro piano technician to learn the basic do's and don'ts of basic tuning hammer technique. (Proper torque angle, approaching intonation from above not below, etc.)

i think it is essential for every studio owner to be able to do basic maintenance on their equipment. owning a tuning hammer is no more dangerous than owning a soldering iron - with either one it is incumbent on the owner to learn how to use it properly, or you can end up doing a lot more harm than good.

most of us can't afford to keep a piano tech on staff. so you do what you gotta do.

i've got an 1897 steinway B, and i've had to do on the spot maintenance of all kinds - sticking dampers, squeaking pedals, etc. No, a beginner shouldn't try that stuff. but you shouldn't be afraid to learn either.

Anyway, glad i was able to provide some unintentional amusement for y'all, but you can get up off the floor now. your pants are getting dirty...

By that measure, whilst you are at it, I would spend 5 mins showing the piano tech how to set up a vocal mic and get a good vocal sound!

There are enough piano tuners that have trouble setting up decent unisons, getting out there yourself is really pushing your luck. If its a rock session and the piano is resonable having it tuned once a day should be good enough, twice a day if its heavy takes and the budgets there.


Regards


Roland

[BevvyB]

Littledog I totally agree with what you're saying.

There's just some deaf people out there that's all.

I just figured if a studio owner was pissing you off you could buy a tuning fork and a key for the new assistant engineer with a kindly 'off you go sonny, you'd be doing us all a favor' whisper as you creep out the back door...

[littledog]

Originally posted by Roland


By that measure, whilst you are at it, I would spend 5 mins showing the piano tech how to set up a vocal mic and get a good vocal sound!

There are enough piano tuners that have trouble setting up decent unisons, getting out there yourself is really pushing your luck. If its a rock session and the piano is resonable having it tuned once a day should be good enough, twice a day if its heavy takes and the budgets there.


Regards


Roland

I had no idea setting up a vocal mic was that hard. I usually put it on a stand and plug it in. That actually seems a whole lot easier than tuning a unison. Guess that's why I don't have any platinum on my wall!

If your piano tuners in your area can't tune a unison, you need to import some better ones. Anyone with ears and a bit of training should be able to do a unison. I know i can. Replacing strings or hammers, setting up a temperment, etc. all require a much higher degree of training, and I'm NOT recommending people try that sort of thing.

I don't know if you even have a piano in your studio, Roland, but are you saying you would prefer to shut down a session rather than let either yourself or someone else present touch your tuning pins? Do you let your clients know that ahead of time?

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a fight. Different strokes, etc. When you deal with vintage equipment, it helps if you can do basic maintenance. No different from an old Neve board. I couldn't function in my studio, where I do a lot of solo piano, piano/vox duos, etc. in classical and jazz "exposed" situations without being able to retouch notes as the session progressed. Maybe if all I was doing was metal i wouldn't care - or more to the point, the clients wouldn't...

anyway, I'm not casting aspersions on you as an engineer or a human being. Just agreeing to disagree on this issue!

[Curious G]

hey littledog, I think these guys are just giving you a little good-natured ribbing. I'd never try and tune a piano because I haven't got a clue where to start (and besides I don't have one in my tiny studio...)

I do my own dentistry though, and have 2 of the nicest teeth a guy could wish for!!!

[frenzy]

Apart from the changing temperature and humidity in the room, the time before the piano goes out of tune is very much a quality thing. This is of course obvious, but I didn't know how obvious it was before we changed the custom-made Yamaha grandpiano to a cheaper "factory-made" version of the same grandpiano.

I sometimes work as soundengineer for a big tv-show in Sweden and of course the instruments get carried around much more than they would have been in a recording studio. But even when the piano is fixed in one position, the cheaper one quite easilly goes out of tune.

The custom-made piano, apart from sounding great, could easilly keep the pitch between two shows or more (that was quite obvious when it hadn't been used for a month or so). But the cheaper piano must be tuned right before the show.

I really miss the custom-made Yamaha piano and I would love to have one, but it's around $65k. The factory-made version of the piano is around $20k. But you get what you pay for...


Cheers
Frederick

[FOURTHTUNZ]

I lucked into my baby grand due to a couple breaking up, they told me to come get it or it was going to get chopped up, they were pretty mad at each other! It's been nice having a real piano but you have to realize that for about half of the people that come in, your piano won't be the right one, regardless of what it is. I suppose it's much like a guitar in that way. I tell the client the last time it was tuned and they can opt to have it tuned or not.
Good luck!
daniel

[littledog]

Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
It's been nice having a real piano but you have to realize that for about half of the people that come in, your piano won't be the right one, regardless of what it is.

I wouldn't go that far, although it's probably more true about bottom feeder pianos than really good ones. Although I could certainly agree with that if half of your clients were looking for a fender rhodes...

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by littledog
I wouldn't go that far, although it's probably more true about bottom feeder pianos than really good ones. Although I could certainly agree with that if half of your clients were looking for a fender rhodes...

I not sure if I have a "bottom feeder" piano, never heard of that model.
Many times its the piano/room combo that folks want.
It has been this way for my business, maybe not for yours?
daniel

[littledog]

Sorry if it seemed I was dissing your piano. I was making a more general comment in response to your statement that "half the time" whatever piano you have will be the wrong one. The point being, as the piano gets bigger and more expensive, that tends to be less true. Not too many people will turn up their nose at a 9' Steinway in mint condition, although I'm not saying it can't happen. It just won't happen half the time, I guarantee.

Less than one out of ten musicians have anything even remotely negative to say about my piano. Maybe another two out of ten won't say anything at all. The remaining seven out of ten fall on the ground and kiss it's little feet. (Ok - slight exageration, but you get the point...)

I have an 1897 Steinway B. I don't think I'd get the same reaction with a Kawai or Yamaha, although I will concede that for certain projects the brighter Asian sound might be more appropriate. But hey, that's why they invented EQ!

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by littledog
Sorry if it seemed I was dissing your piano. I was making a more general comment in response to your statement that "half the time" whatever piano you have will be the wrong one. The point being, as the piano gets bigger and more expensive, that tends to be less true. Not too many people will turn up their nose at a 9' Steinway in mint condition, although I'm not saying it can't happen. It just won't happen half the time, I guarantee.

Less than one out of ten musicians have anything even remotely negative to say about my piano. Maybe another two out of ten won't say anything at all. The remaining seven out of ten fall on the ground and kiss it's little feet. (Ok - slight exageration, but you get the point...)

I have an 1897 Steinway B. I don't think I'd get the same reaction with a Kawai or Yamaha, although I will concede that for certain projects the brighter Asian sound might be more appropriate. But hey, that's why they invented EQ!

Oh, no worries My original comment was sort of off handed but it was also based on the original posters parameters and my experiences with a smaller studio space 22*13*9.5, my mini grand and the larger grands in churches,and other remote spaces. Yes if you have a well teched Steinway, and a larger room I'd believe that you might have less instances where the client would want to seek an outside piano. Then again depends on the client and budget. With classical players all bets are off!
Picky, Picky!! As to the original posters intent, baby grand in a small room, 50%
daniel

[littledog]

Can't argue with any of that!

[Bernd G]

LowSwing,
these are all important comments that have been racked up.
Here are some of my observations after dealing with pianos for the last 20 years or so:
1) Pianos, unlike string instruments, do not become better with age. Think of it as a car that needs maintenance according to the conditions that is is placed in. This means that in conditions where the humidity/temperature changes constantly you will have to have it tuned constantly, unless you are going for a "bar piano" sound which I have deliberately sought after in a recent Tango recording.
2) Tuning is an ART similar to sound recording. A tuner who is an artist can make the difference between a piano that sounds "grand" and a piano that sounds miserable. A bad tuner will be able to turn a $ 120,000, 9 ft Hamburg Steinway into a lifeless box of strings. A good tuner can make a mediocre piano sound better. Better start cultivating a good relationship with a competent "artist-tuner."
3) There is no substitute for a large grand piano for certain applications (ie. classical music recording). The minimum size for a piano to sound "large", IMHO is 7ft. Under that you starting to compromise the low resonances and there will be nothing you can do with ANY microphone choices.
4) Certain clients will ONLY accept certain brands of pianos (ie. Steinway, Bosendorfer, etc.), which will turn your 9foot AmericanXBrand into a nice coffeetable.
5) Nothing (samples, synths, electric pianos etc.) sounds like a REAL piano. This point is obvious, no?
6) Too much humidity/dryness will ruin a piano. Pianos built from wood from the native environment will endure those conditions much more readily than imports. I.e. German Steinways imported to Arizona or Virginia and placed in non-climate controlled environments suffer tremendously. Chinese pianos can deal with high humidity conditions much better.
7) A piano can be too large for its space. There is no point, often, to have a piano larger than 7ft in a studio space. The resonances of the room will fight those of the piano.
Oh, one more thing: each piano sounds very different (just like a U47 can sound different from another), even if it is the same maker, size, date of built etc. Similar to a violin bow for instance, wood has the amazing ability for complexity. There are no two pieces of wood that vibrate exactly the same. This is another reason to listen to every instrument BEFORE you buy.
I got off on a tangent here, I think, but maybe some of this bla helps you see the immense issues involved.
Cheers

[littledog]

Great post, Bernd!thumbsup