Outboard gear in a mixerless studio?

[Dirty Halo]

How do you guys route your outboard gear if you're all in Pro Tools? If you have outboard gear like Distressor, Alan Smart compressors... 480L, Neves, Vintechs, whatever.

Are your compressors in line? Your FX? Your pre-amps?

I'd like to know how your studios are set up, please.

Thanks one and all.

-a

[zimv20]

everything's tied into a patchbay. when doing hardware inserts, i route them to the ADAT outs (where my rosetta800 is), patch from there to the gear, then back to the rosetta where it's tied to the ADAT ins.

[OHA]

everything is in a patchbay. Use hardware as inserts from my digi 192's. When I use more than one hardware unit in each track, I patch them in line, so that there is only one da/ad konvertion

[RoundBadge]

yeah patching inserts into 192's with a better clock[bigben,etc] is very cool..
You get the ADC and you also keep your automation intact.

[Dirty Halo]

So, so far all you guys are all Patchbays for all your outboard gear?

Anyone use anything like a mid-sized console as a sort of patchbay/summing?

A digital board?

Just patch things direct as needed?

Thanks for posting your set-ups, very helpful, I'd love to hear more.

-a

[Synthi]

All my gear including Ad and DA is connected to the patchbays, all routing is done there. I also use a custom 16 channels telefunken tube summing mixer and its in the patchbay also so I can insert external fx within nuendo, or before DA when summing.

Synthi.

[kittonian]

We have everything on separate A/D and D/A channels and just pull them up like a plug-in in Nuendo 3.2. The converters go into Lynx AES-16 cards. I usually don't track with anything (comps, eq, etc.). I save all that for the mix and then I can make changes as necessary. If I do feel the need to track with something then I just change the cables to run in-line as I want.

This setup will also work if you have a PT|HD system with the latest software (minus the Lynx cards of course).

Hope that helps!

[RecTeach]

When you guys speak of routing to the PT inserts via the 192 exactly how are you doing this? There has also been a lot of discussion here regarding A/D-D/A conversion.

So for the patching "dummies" like me exactly how would you patch this to be used as an insert in PT?

I'll use 8 channels for this example:

IBIS on 1/2
Neve 5042 on 3/4
GML 8200 on 5/6
TG-1 on 7/8

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by RecTeach

When you guys speak of routing to the PT inserts via the 192 exactly how are you doing this?

you mean in the software? in the insert section of an aux or audio track, select a hardware channel or pair. then make sure, in analog-land, the out of that/those channel(s) eventually get routed to the respective in(s).

so, if you're sticking an la-2a on your lead vocal track on ADAT 1, in analog:

d/a out via ADAT1 -> la-2a in :: la-2a out -> a/d in via ADAT1

[Igotsoul4u]

You need to make your own little I/O setup. I can email you mine if you want to check it out.

[joaquin]

How do you deal with latency when using hardware as a plugin??
I'm still working without ADC in my daw. I plan to calculate the delay in samples, for each buffer size, and adjust forward my audio files accordingly.....Is it the best way??
Thanks........Joaquin.

[ZEUSS]

Originally Posted by joaquin

How do you deal with latency when using hardware as a plugin??
I'm still working without ADC in my daw. I plan to calculate the delay in samples, for each buffer size, and adjust forward my audio files accordingly.....Is it the best way??
Thanks........Joaquin.

The latency is so small you would never notice it. At least it is with HD.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by ZEUSS

The latency is so small you would never notice it. At least it is with HD.

HD has ADC....still in LE over here

[Kenny Gioia]

I have no patchbay.

I never want one and hopefully will never have one.

I don't have much outboard so it really doesn't matter.

I like the fact that I never have to shake a patch cable to hear sound.

When mixing I patch all my interfaces (192 I/O and 2 888/24's) into my folcrom into a Pre (for makeup gain) into a compressor (SSL) for the stereo buss.

Everything else gets printed as I go (Daking EQ, Distressors etc)

I don't want to have to recall all that stuff too. Plus I get a great EQ/Compressor on each and every channel (If I need it)

Oh. And I never compensate for delays unless I'm processing drums. (multiple mics need to be in phase.)

[RecTeach]

Originally Posted by zimv20

d/a out via ADAT1 -> la-2a in :: la-2a out -> a/d in via ADAT1

I know it's just me not understanding here but how do you go ADAT out into a IBIS (or any other outboard) and back in PT via ADAT?

[Trailerman]

We use a 192 IO for all our hardware inserts, via a Signex balanced patchbay. Works a treat, and means that if you're chaining hardware, you don't incurr multiple AD/DA conversions.

If we're running the whole mix through hardware we use better converters than the 192 (currently trying a UA 2192, or otherwise a Digital Audio Denmark 2402). For individual tracks and busses though, I find the 192 converters are fine.

In software: (in a nutshell) - set your IO's up so that you have your 192 ins and outs using the same physical connections. You need to do this on the 'Input' AND the 'Output' AND the 'Insert' pages. Once you've done it, your hardware inserts will appear in the IO section of the insert drop-down menu. Easy as piss!!

Being relatively new to ProTools (18 months), the fact that ProTools HD allows you to use hardware so seamlessly, and without latency is truly awesome. I'd find it hard to go back to a native DAW for mix work.

Jules

[OHA]

Originally Posted by Trailerman

If we're running the whole mix through hardware we use better converters than the 192 (currently trying a UA 2192, or otherwise a Digital Audio Denmark 2402). For individual tracks and busses though, I find the 192 converters are fine. Jules

Not to start a new debate, but many of us considers the converters in digi 192 to be the best on the market today..

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by OHA

Not to start a new debate, but many of us considers the converters in digi 192 to be the best on the market today..

Well that shouldn't start a debate.

Everybody knows that Digidesign makes the best Mic Pre's & Converters!!!!! tutt

It's a shame that we can't all agree with how good their summing bus is.

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by RecTeach

I know it's just me not understanding here but how do you go ADAT out into a IBIS (or any other outboard) and back in PT via ADAT?

forget the ADAT part for now.

PT -> d/a converter -> IBIS -> a/d converter -> PT

hopefully that makes sense. now, the parts in red are digital connections, which could be ADAT. could also be s/pdif, AES, et. al.

[j.b.horns]

I'm pretty sure that ADC doesn't apply to using harware inserts. You have to manually enter the amount of delay compensation you want for each channel. I haven't quite got around to doing this yet, so if anyone could shed some light on the subject, it would be great.

This is the only hang-up I have about using my outboard comps with ProTools. If there is any delay, I'd hate for it to mess with the phase in my drum tracks.

John

[RecTeach]

Originally Posted by zimv20

forget the ADAT part for now.

PT -> d/a converter -> IBIS -> a/d converter -> PT

hopefully that makes sense. now, the parts in red are digital connections, which could be ADAT. could also be s/pdif, AES, et. al.

Ah, crystal clear now. Thanks!
thumbsup

[mltamisin]

I've been using a Digi002 with some outboard compressors on the master bus but haven't tried using a comp on an individual track. Has anybody had delay compensation issues doing this?

[spacewars]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

How do you guys route your outboard gear if you're all in Pro Tools? If you have outboard gear like Distressor, Alan Smart compressors... 480L, Neves, Vintechs, whatever.

Are your compressors in line? Your FX? Your pre-amps?

I'd like to know how your studios are set up, please.

Thanks one and all.

-a

I'm 100% patched into dedicated PT I/Os. Various tube/solid state compressors, vintage digital effects,
analog EQ, etc. No patchbay- to me, that would totally defeat the convenience and recallability of working with a DAW in the first place.
The downside is the expense of all the I/O hardware, but it's uber-fast to work this way,
as well as convenient. Been working this way for about 7 years, couldn't go back.

[Trailerman]

Originally Posted by OHA

Not to start a new debate, but many of us considers the converters in digi 192 to be the best on the market today..

I agree they're amongst the best.

Comparing the 192 converters to the Universal Audio 2192 today, there was very little between them - a couple of things I could pick blind, other material I honestly couldn't tell them apart. They're not identical, but at this level of quality, I really believe the differences are largely subjective - I marginally prefered the 2192 on most mixes because it is fractionally more 'forward' than the 192, but on more ethereal material I was picking the 192 blind.

What did sound better was when I clocked my 192 from the 2192, instead of our Sync IO. It also sounded better than when I used a Rosendahl Nanosyncs as clock master, so I suspect the 2192 will become the new studio master clock.

One or two things I found strange - put a sine wave through the 192 and 2192 and the levels come back absolutely flat, both pinned at -18db. Put pink noise through them and you get up to a db of difference in level, same with some program material. Niether converters were consistently louder or quieter, it varied from one track to another. Does anyone know why this is? I guess it at least demonstrates that there is a difference.

Jules

[neve1073]

In my home studio, I just route them in line, no problem. But I don't ever do more than overdubbing, editing and processing of individual tracks at home. If I had to mix at home, I'd need a patchbay and a good board.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by spacewars

I'm 100% patched into dedicated PT I/Os. Various tube/solid state compressors, vintage digital effects,
analog EQ, etc. No patchbay- to me, that would totally defeat the convenience and recallability of working with a DAW in the first place.
The downside is the expense of all the I/O hardware, but it's uber-fast to work this way,
as well as convenient. Been working this way for about 7 years, couldn't go back.

This is the way I'd like to go, but here's apotentially stupid question... how about your preamps? Do you have synths all on individual 1/0s as well?

Thanks,

a

[T_R_S]

I am slowly tring to get rid of my patch bay I have 40 channels of I/O so all my outborad stays patched all I have to patch is mic inputs. It's nice to insert a piece of outboard like a plug-in.

[Mr. Victory]

I was just thinking. . .

If you spend the dough and truly get enough i/o to match the number of i/o on all your outboard then you can discard the patchbay and hook up all your outboard to your HD i/o directly and truly be able to call up your outboard like plugins. Definitely a plus in terms of recalls.

I'm a mixer kind of guy, but if y'all say HD summing really doesn't sound so bad then this may be an option.

Definitely got me thinking.

[Crushed]

Does anyone else have problems when using external effects in nuendo of a hollow, phasey sound that just sucks bad? I find that most of the time when I use Nuendo to route to outboard effects, it does NOT come back sounding better. It sounds like ringing, buzzing, feedback, out of phase garbage. Anybody have any idea what this is?
I know this is a powerful tool that I'd like to use, cause I got some very nice outboard equipment, but fukk me if I know what I'm doing wrong.

Allen

[spacewars]

Originally Posted by Mr. Victory

I was just thinking. . .

If you spend the dough and truly get enough i/o to match the number of i/o on all your outboard then you can discard the patchbay and hook up all your outboard to your HD i/o directly and truly be able to call up your outboard like plugins. Definitely a plus in terms of recalls.

I'm a mixer kind of guy, but if y'all say HD summing really doesn't sound so bad then this may be an option.

Definitely got me thinking.

Um,
Yeah.
That's quite a concept you've discovered there.

I have had that setup on my Mix 4 rig for the last 7 years (see above post)-
It works extraordinarily well.
The big, crucial thing that's missing is delay compensation, so I'm going HD.
Of course, this means four 192's, but what are you gonna do.
In answer to the preamp question, I just dedicated inputs on my interfaces to them,
like all the other gear. The thing that's really ******** about the 192's is the fact that you can't do 16 pairs of analog I/O on one of them- only 8, because they apparently overdesigned the power supply in those things and ran out of space for more than 8 analog channel pairs with everything else that's in there. So to get the number of inserts that I need just go cover the outboard I presently have, I need 4 of them.
And of course the minute I get more outboard, I need more 192s.

Still better than an expensive, mechanically-unreliable, tedious POS state-of-the-art-1928 patchbay though.

BTW, you know what else is really cool? There's this stuff called "carbon paper".
Apparently, you put it between the thing you want to copy and a blank piece of paper,
and when you write on the top sheet, it comes out on the blank one as well.

What a time to be alive!