67 clones

[popmann]

I hesitate to post over here in high end, as I'm a relatively low rent guy. But, I'm on a PERSONAL vocal mic search, and figured this would be the best chance to find someone who's compared or worked with 2 mics:

Korby Convertible 67
Soundelux U99

I've been through a bunch renting...borrowing...the Korby 67 is the first one I've used that I would buy, ONLY...at $4500...well, I'd like to know that's the only option, as the Convertible system-cool as it is, isn't gonna offer me personally a ton more, in terms of what I need. Other caps were beautiful...but, not the right sound for my voice-I even preferred the 67 cap on my acoustic guitar, and was great in combo with my Sm81 for stereo.

I'll tell you what I loved about the Korby...it had the rich, creamy growl in the low mids without being at all boomy or bass heavy. It was very open on the top without being at all "boosted". It's midrange was forward, but not in the upper mid hashy way that others have been (87, 87ai, 4060, etc)

The "next" best I've used is an InnerTubeAudio 87. But, it had the classic hash--just tamed down a bit. I'm gonna check an Innertube87 with the AI cap...as AIs I've used tended to have less of that upper mid hash compared with p48 models. even though they say they're the same...

I've been using a Millenia Hv3b for most of these tests...UA LA610 around...Great River Me1-nv around for a while...FWIW.

So, feel free to toss out any other 67(ish) mics I should try, but particularly if you've used both the Korby and U99...how close are they? I've used a U95s--it was lacking that low mid richness, and bordered on spitty at times. EQ revealed oddness in the high end, while a boost to the highs on the Korby revealed a gorgeous "air".

So...am I on the hook for $4500?

[NathanEldred]

Soundelux E250: It's not based on a U67 per se, but it's a solid rock and roll microphone with a relatively airy (not dark at all) top. It's got less high mid content than the U99, but is a bit more focused. Definitely a nice alternate and sometimes interchangeable to the sound you are describing.

[popmann]

I should point out that I don't do "rock and roll"...

You don't find the low half of the spectrum totally different on 251 style recreations than on Neumanns? This Korby is the first non-Neumann I've ever heard with that low mid warmth...it's like an elastic quality the harder it's pushed. To my ear, the 4060 is a hybrid of a 251 style bottom and KK67 style top.

It has been suggested elsewhere that I check out the M149, as well. FWIW.

[Berolzheimer]

I haven't used the Korby, but fwiw your description sounds just like real u67's that I've had the pleasure to record with.

[squeegybug]

I like M 149 a lot, Pop. It's what I chose to keep after a bunch of comparisons. I could send some samples but probably wouldn't help much, without you trying of course.

Steve

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by popmann

I should point out that I don't do "rock and roll"...

If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, does rock and roll still exist?

I haven't met a genre specific microphone of very high quality (i.e. over $2000) that I can think of, FWIW...but I'm sure there are some that are just for jazz, and some that are just for classical I just haven't found one mic that I can't record at least few different styles with.

You don't find the low half of the spectrum totally different on 251 style recreations than on Neumanns? This Korby is the first non-Neumann I've ever heard with that low mid warmth...it's like an elastic quality the harder it's pushed.

The 250's proximity effect is higher than the regular 251. It's a unique mic that sounds like a couple different things, but I'm probably way off base.

[StoneinaPond]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

...I haven't really met a genre specific microphone FWIW.

Then I guess I can use a pair of SM57s when I next record the NY Philharmonic.

[steins]

Originally Posted by popmann

I hesitate to post over here in high end, as I'm a relatively low rent guy. But, I'm on a PERSONAL vocal mic search, and figured this would be the best chance to find someone who's compared or worked with 2 mics:

Korby Convertible 67
Soundelux U99

I've been through a bunch renting...borrowing...the Korby 67 is the first one I've used that I would buy, ONLY...at $4500...well, I'd like to know that's the only option, as the Convertible system-cool as it is, isn't gonna offer me personally a ton more, in terms of what I need. Other caps were beautiful...but, not the right sound for my voice-I even preferred the 67 cap on my acoustic guitar, and was great in combo with my Sm81 for stereo.

I'll tell you what I loved about the Korby...it had the rich, creamy growl in the low mids without being at all boomy or bass heavy. It was very open on the top without being at all "boosted". It's midrange was forward, but not in the upper mid hashy way that others have been (87, 87ai, 4060, etc)

The "next" best I've used is an InnerTubeAudio 87. But, it had the classic hash--just tamed down a bit. I'm gonna check an Innertube87 with the AI cap...as AIs I've used tended to have less of that upper mid hash compared with p48 models. even though they say they're the same...

I've been using a Millenia Hv3b for most of these tests...UA LA610 around...Great River Me1-nv around for a while...FWIW.

So, feel free to toss out any other 67(ish) mics I should try, but particularly if you've used both the Korby and U99...how close are they? I've used a U95s--it was lacking that low mid richness, and bordered on spitty at times. EQ revealed oddness in the high end, while a boost to the highs on the Korby revealed a gorgeous "air".

So...am I on the hook for $4500?

I haven't heard an U67 clone or even a real U67, so I don't know about clones. But, FWIW, we have the Korby KAT-4 system. The 67 capsule is by far the most used capsule at our place. If I had the time and money to dig up a real, well-maintained, good-sounding U67, I'd be a happy man...for a while.

Santa, are you listening.....?

Stein Tore

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by StoneinaPond

Then I guess I can use a pair of SM57s when I next record the NY Philharmonic.

Probably not, but you could still record rock, jazz, pop, hip hop, R&B, & world music of various types with them....sounds non genre specific to me. But I'm off topic, my apologies.

[Tetness]

Love my Korby U67!!!

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by popmann

So...am I on the hook for $4500?

Get a real U67 or m269c. Clones are nonsense if you're after the U67 sound!

Andreas

[SoZo]

I recommend this 67 Clone..

******//sozoamplification.com/sozo_sounds.html

[popmann]

Actually...I have used an M269, and the Korby kills it for my use in terms of record readiness. The M269 with a generous high shlef had that unreal "80's pop" air that I've heard no where else...but, the 269, at least the one I used required far too much EQ to be worth the upkeep. Great mic...don't get me wrong.

Maybe I should retitle the thread "U99 or Korby 67-differences?"...I think people jump in after reading it and not much else. Never having used a 67...I don't even know if it IS a 67 sound I want. The Korby is intentionally made with a less foward midrange...FWIW. I could stand it to be slightly more forward, actually--in an ideal world. But, if it was gonna screw up what a high shelf does to it now, I'd leave it as is.

Sqeegy...I'll check here. I'm pretty sure I have access to an M149 locally. I think I initially got scared away by blah reviews and reports of high repair bills. Tracy Korby's shop is 10 min from the house...

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by popmann

Sqeegy...I'll check here. I'm pretty sure I have access to an M149 locally. I think I initially got scared away by blah reviews and reports of high repair bills. Tracy Korby's shop is 10 min from the house...

Well Pop, when they first came out they weren't blah, they could be used on everything! And Sarah McLachlan, Paul Simon, yadayada seem to use them ok. Some interesting changes in Neumann perception in forums over the years... somehow folks started expecting the 149 to be 49 (and of course same with 184 v 84, 150 v 50, etc.) I guess they were asking for it with those numbering schemes.

Taken for what it is, the M 149 is a very robust, natural sounding mic. Way lots of power, not harsh, not boomy, very musical. In my experience anyway, on my sources.

re those repairs -- the high costs from the mfgr repair is because they don't replace the tube, they replace the entire PCB that the tube is soldered on. I bought a "pre-qualified" 6111 tube from a respected mic repair shop for $15, and soldered that little guy in in about 10 minutes. Not much to it. Of course it's not "factory serviced" and perfectly matched to the original, if that is even possible. I made before/after recordings, the new one sounds the same So I wouldn't sweat that part of it. And of course Adam or Tracy can certainly take care of you on that. Worth a try anyway, see how it works for you.

You want another sleeper mic that can really work great sometimes -- Sony C-48. That thing is *real*, a beautiful capsule and sound, it can find the truth for you. But like everything, who knows if its response would suit your voice and the sound you want.

Steve

[Sounds Great]

How can the U67 and U99 even be compared? Seems like apples and bananas to me. The U67 has the slightly muted high end and the U99 has a ton of high end.

[PlanB]

Hey Pop, great to see you here!

Well regarding that 149, I heard your voice several times and honestly I think you would be dissapointed. But try it anyway. Don't get me wrong, it is a splendid microphone, I have a pair for about 5 years now
But just in your specific case, I would take Nathan's suggestion and try the 250 by Soundelux. Also, the Korby variation will not be a slouch either.
For your specific application, I think cardioid is more than enough, so try to think whether it is worth to cash up the extra cash, when you could go and get a Great River EQ-NV1 you love so much! Just a suggestion, YMMV etc etc

Cheers
Arthur

[popmann]

How can the U67 and U99 even be compared? Seems like apples and bananas to me. The U67 has the slightly muted high end and the U99 has a ton of high end.

Well...I haven't used a U99, but it's brought into this because Soundelux claims it's their U67 clone...like a 67 modded with it's LPF removed.

Arthur, what qualities would I be disappointed in the M149, do you think? I had the whole convertible set here...tried the 251 (albeit the bright one, I do think he makes a muted one, too, as that was offered up)...nada. Of his caps, the C12 sounded next best to me. The 251, like other clones I've heard sounds like a chick singer mic--slight in the midrange all together, with a low end boost and a sweet, but decidedly unique air boost. Pleasant enough (maybe the most solo'd) but, just didn't sit right in a mix. The C12 had much better mids, with a gritty air. It worked well, so long as my voice was fresh...once I started to get a little worn, though, the C12's grittiness got to be too much.

Actually, I ended up using the Innertube87 for the keeper tracks...but, really dug the Korby the best all around-vocal and acoustic gtr. I'm gonna try the Innertube mod in an 87ai and see how it fares. It still was a tad hashy in the 5k range...but, so is a p48 (which is what this was modded from)...I never noticed that with the AIs I've had...

You've listened to the cuts on my site, Arthur? For reference, 4 of the five is an 87ai>Great RiverNV...one is an ADK Hamburg>LA610. Probably all compressed a bit too much with an La3a.

Thanks to all.

[seawell]

I got one of the Korby mics when they first came out with the 67 and 251 capsules. I sold it when I built my first house and tried to find something a little cheaper. I tried the Soundelux U99, E250 as well as the Neumann M149 among many other mics. All were great mics but none of them measured up to the Korby. A few months ago I purchased the Korby again and I'll never sell it this time. The 67 capsule is a pleasure to sing into, it really encourages your performance while some of the other mics felt like you were singing against a brick wall. So, if you've had the pleasure of using the Korby and you liked it, you'll probably not be happy with anything less, at least that was my experience.

[popmann]

Doh...you had to tell me that!

Since you've used both the U99 and the Korby67...are they way different? What quality did you NOT like about the U99?

[popmann]

Re: being a pleasure to sing into...I normally have to sing with one earphone off, because I don't feel like I can rely on the mic/feedback...I put the Korby67 up, and during the first take, I thought, "Oh my god, this is what I sound like from the outside?" And never took an ear off. Part of me thinks that attribute has as much value than the finished product tone.

[RoundBadge]

I use the Kat 4 here also..along side real 47's and 67's..perfect fit right up there with real ones althought the 47 cap don't do a 47 exactly..it's still useful..the korby 67[my favorite too] has won over the original a bunch of times.
Tracy does an M49 cap now as well..I wanna check it.
also ,if you live close to him...he'll tweak the mic just to your liking..big bonus for you!

[84K]

The U67 is the hardest vintage "sought-after" mic to clone. Why? Because it is illegal... Neumann has a patent on the grill design. The grill surrounding the capsule makes up a big part of the sound of a microphone.

Now, men wiser then I (err-emm Korby) can figure ways to get similar sounds out of different designs. So, that is the reason why U47 clones look like U47s but there are no such clones for the U67.

All that being said, I use U67s regularly, and I love them. They got the Mojo.


But so do a lot of other mics

[popmann]

I retitled the thread for clarification. while I'm open to any suggestions...I really was looking for experience with both the U99 and the Korby67.

[kats]

Just a clarification 84k. D Boch pointed out to me that it's not a patent but rather just a trade mark of it's shape - he also mentioned that the TM is sketchy at best.

On topic, IME I've found that mics can be compared in two catagories. Character & frequency shapes. While clones can nail the frequency shape (on axis) I find that each mic manafacturer create mics that have a character closer to their own different models than to models they're trying to emulate. IE Soundelux sound like Soundelux and Neumann sound like Neumann.

This is by no means a scientific remark, it just my perception. My guess is that the capsule has a significant foot print inspite of any frequency shaping electronics and that is what I'm hearing.

[seawell]

Originally Posted by popmann

Re: being a pleasure to sing into...I normally have to sing with one earphone off, because I don't feel like I can rely on the mic/feedback...I put the Korby67 up, and during the first take, I thought, "Oh my god, this is what I sound like from the outside?" And never took an ear off. Part of me thinks that attribute has as much value than the finished product tone.

I couldn't agree with you more about that. One of the most frustrating things about studio vocals is feeling like the mic is holding you back. The U99 was a good mic but not nearly as good as the Korby 67 in my opinion. Oddly enough since they are both inspired by the U67, I don't think they sound very similar at all.
The best things about the Korby to me are: 1) It sits in the mix without any processing and 2)It is inspirational to sing in to. It doesn't fight against you when tracking vocals. The 251 capsule is killer on acoustic guitars by the way and really great on vocals as well.

[Berolzheimer]

I did a shootout recently recently with a male vocalist between a u99, Zentech tube mic, an older u87 and a 4050, and I found the u99, while it had some nice characteristics, to be a bit "wooly" sounding. The Zentech won that particular comparo, very clear & open sounding, lots of detail & intimacy, though possibly a bit sibilant.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

How can the U67 and U99 even be compared? Seems like apples and bananas to me. The U67 has the slightly muted high end and the U99 has a ton of high end.

Yeah, I've never gotten that either. While the U-99 is a great mic with a rich sounding high end it just didn't have that killer midrange like my 67's. Didn't even sound like it was aiming there. I also think that, regardless of what you think of the M149, it doesn't much sound like a 67.

-R

[Jonathan Starr]

Sounds to me that you are lucky in having found something that really works well for you.

My suggestion is that you rent or borrow a good Neumann U67 and try it out and see if it works as well as the Korby for you. If it's better, then get a U67. If not, do whatever you have to do to get a Korby.

Life is short... and sweet.

[popmann]

While the U-99 is a great mic with a rich sounding high end it just didn't have that killer midrange like my 67's.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm all about the midrange. The way it tracks dynamics. The way it sits without much processing. It's where the fundamentals lie in a voice or acoustic.

I think Jonathan has a point...I'll bring in the 67, Korby 67, and an Innertube87ai (rather than P48)...next time I cut a vocal. Go from there. I really didn't want to adopt an expensive vintage mic...but, if you're going to spend that kind of money, might as well entertain it.

[Seamus TM]

Old thread.
New time.
Anything changed in the past 3 years?

The Korby still the King of the Modern U67?