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Which subwoofer: Bag End or Genelec?
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David Rick
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10th December 2005
Old 10th December 2005
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Which subwoofer: Bag End or Genelec?

I'd always planned to add a subwoofer to my ADAM S2A surround rig, and it's finally time. I don't really mix a lot of deep bass or high-impact stuff; I want the sub more for quality assurance. (We also watch DVD movies in here because there are no other TV's in the house, but that's not the primary use.) What I don't want to do is compromize the basic sound quality I've grown used to with ADAM's.

I need something with built-in 5.1 bass mangement. The obvious candidates seem to be:

Bag End Infrasub 12 Pro and Infrasub 18 Pro
Genelec 7060A and 7070A

My production room is roughly 14' x 18', but opens to a much larger space through an unsealed doorway.

Listening to the Ray Brown Trio on SACD as I type this,

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
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10th December 2005
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If it's any help I've got a 7060A to go with my 1030s...does the job fine. To be fair I haven't tried any other brands - but I give the genelec a thumbsup
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10th December 2005
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7070A sub here (with 5 1031A): absolutely great in sound, size, value-for-money.
I would buy it again anytime.

Stefan
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11th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick
I want the sub more for quality assurance. (David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Best , easy..... VELODYNE....
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11th December 2005
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I run the 18 inch
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11th December 2005
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Demo an S-10 from ADAM. Very tight low end. DBX qualified. Match your ADAM's...

I use with S3a's...2 cents.

...J
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11th December 2005
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Quote:
What I don't want to do is compromize the basic sound quality I've grown used to with ADAM's.
Why don't you go with ADAM's sub then? S10 is a very good sub!
You can also check out K+H's one.
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11th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iziphonics
Why don't you go with ADAM's sub then? S10 is a very good sub!
You can also check out K+H's one.

Adam sub works great here! If you go with anything else, Bag End. But why not ADAMS??? Did you see the new model sub at AES??? Its bigger stike
David Rick
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11th December 2005
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Several folks asked the obvious question: "Why not an ADAM sub?"

ADAM has a 10" and showed a new 12" at AES. Unfortunately, neither model has bass managment. I asked Dave Bryce what he recommended for that, and he sent me down the hallway to the Martinsound booth. They have a little half-rack thing that they said was designed by Thom Holman. OK, so it's got a good pedigree, but the damn thing is unbalanced! I guess Mr. H. has spent too much time in the hifi world lately. Martinsound's solution to that is to sell me another half-rack conversion box. Total cost for these two op-amp filled marvels and their two wall-warts? $1400, a couple hundred less than the smaller Bag End offering which, um, includes the subwoofer.

I guess a lot of people are using surround controllers with bass management built in, but that usually means a digital box like the Tascam. No thanks. I do NOT want two more layers of A/D/A conversion in my monitor chain. Simpler is better, methinks, hence the little SPL 2380 sitting to my left.

David L. Rick
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11th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick
Several folks asked the obvious question: "Why not an ADAM sub?"

ADAM has a 10" and showed a new 12" at AES. Unfortunately, neither model has bass managment. I asked Dave Bryce what he recommended for that, and he sent me down the hallway to the Martinsound booth. They have a little half-rack thing that they said was designed by Thom Holman. OK, so it's got a good pedigree, but the damn thing is unbalanced! I guess Mr. H. has spent too much time in the hifi world lately. Martinsound's solution to that is to sell me another half-rack conversion box. Total cost for these two op-amp filled marvels and their two wall-warts? $1400, a couple hundred less than the smaller Bag End offering which, um, includes the subwoofer.

I guess a lot of people are using surround controllers with bass management built in, but that usually means a digital box like the Tascam. No thanks. I do NOT want two more layers of A/D/A conversion in my monitor chain. Simpler is better, methinks, hence the little SPL 2380 sitting to my left.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Spot on ... thats why I said Velodyne.... Crossovers and controls.
It is a Audiophile sub, many types for all apps.
Kick the Crap out of the P- whatevers...,
I had the 15 and 18 Inch subs.
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11th December 2005
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PS.... They also have a flat responce down below 10 HZ some go to 7.
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14th December 2005
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Ive used the bag end 2 10 sub for over 10 years. Im my opinion its the best ive ever heard. Sounds like part of my main monitors and not some detached box on the floor. Every other ported sub sounds like a disco to me.

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14th December 2005
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Infinity PS-12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick
... down the hallway to the Martinsound booth. They have a little half-rack thing that they said was designed by Thom Holman. OK, so it's got a good pedigree, but the damn thing is unbalanced! I guess Mr. H. has spent too much time in the hifi world lately. Martinsound's solution to that is to sell me another half-rack conversion box. Total cost for these two op-amp filled marvels and their two wall-warts? $1400, ...
David, you heard me almost correctly . ManagerMAX has an unbalanced signal path, but all signals go through it at unity gain. Unless you have unusually long runs or unusually high levels of RF in your facility, the unbalanced runs typically are not a problem. Input overload is over +23 dBu, so monitor chains, which typically run at less than +4 dBu studio bus level, will have plenty of headroom.
David Rick
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29th December 2005
Old 29th December 2005
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Wanted to let everyone know that I installed a Bag End Infrasub 12 Pro yesterday. I stayed up until 1:30 AM measuring and listening. Eventually my wife wandered in and told me to stop shaking the house and come to bed.

I didn't have a lot of options for placement in my production room, due to other racks, tables, and whatnot, so I put the sub at the foot of the Sound Anchor stand holding my front left ADAM S2A. A quick ETF scan showed that I needed the polarity switch in the "+" position. It also showed some other unflattering things about my room. That sharp notch at 120 Hz is still there -- too high for the subwoofer to have any effect. I'm pretty certain this is a ceiling reflection. I have some Sonex up at the bounce point, but it's no good at 120 Hz. There is also a big suckout at 55 Hz. I'd previously thought that was just the ADAM's rolling off, but it persists with the subwoofer. More investigation needed. Because of that big hole in the measured spectrum, it was a bit difficult to determine the correct level setting for the sub. So I played a lot of good recordings and dialed it in by ear.

Initial sonic impressions:

The low end extension on this thing is absolutely scary. Arvo Paart's De Profundis on SACD sounds truly menacing. The new LSO Shostakovich recordings are very impressive. Jazz acoustic bass sounds like it is right in the room. Irish bohdron still has the nice snap that it did on the unaugmented ADAM's, but a little more bottom. Then there's kick drum... (I have to confess I've never had a monitor system that could do this before. It's not a requirement for the classical and acoustic stuff that I normally work on -- but it sure is fun! ) Michael McDonald's album of Motown covers is really a hoot. (Too bad the top end is so fizzy-- bad ProTools mojo comes through even on DVD-A.)

The sonic character of the ADAM S2A's seems to have been mostly preserved. My chamber music recordings sound pretty much like they did before. Of course that little bass bump due to the porting is gone -- the system has crossed over to the sub by then. Well, that's what was supposed to happen, but I find I'm missing it a bit, because I was relying on it to tell me how stuff would translate to consumer systems. Which brings me to what I think is the biggest deficiency in Bag End's product design: There's no switch for bypassing the thing.

I guess they figured folks would fall in love with it and want it on all the time. Nope; I still want to hear small-monitor-only a lot of the time. Right now that requires repatching, which is a real annoyance. I might have to build myself a relay box before I'm done.

David L. Rick
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29th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick
A quick ETF scan showed that I needed the polarity switch in the "+" position. It also showed some other unflattering things about my room. That sharp notch at 120 Hz is still there -- too high for the subwoofer to have any effect. I'm pretty certain this is a ceiling reflection. I have some Sonex up at the bounce point, but it's no good at 120 Hz. There is also a big suckout at 55 Hz. I'd previously thought that was just the ADAM's rolling off, but it persists with the subwoofer. More investigation needed. Because of that big hole in the measured spectrum, it was a bit difficult to determine the correct level setting for the sub. So I played a lot of good recordings and dialed it in by ear.

Hi David.

You may know this already (I am sure you do) but....

You sound like you have some issues with room nodes. Contrary to popular belief you are going to have a hard time trying to power over the problems with your room using a sub. Even if the sub went up to 120hz it sounds like you have a dip there (pretty standard for smaller rooms) and adding speakers is not going to help.

Check this out.. you can thank me later.



Thanks for the review.
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David Rick
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30th December 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Hi David.
You sound like you have some issues with room nodes. Contrary to popular belief you are going to have a hard time trying to power over the problems with your room using a sub. Even if the sub went up to 120hz it sounds like you have a dip there (pretty standard for smaller rooms) and adding speakers is not going to help.

Check this out
I think the 55Hz thing is a room mode all right. I'll work out the math tomorrow when I'm more awake. I believe that adding another speaker can help when the first speaker is sitting in a standing-wave null and the second isn't. Unfortunately, my sub is basically at the same position as the left main.

The 120 Hz notch is so sharp that I'm sure it's a discrete reflection. I suspect the ceiling, since the notch shows up for all three front speakers.

FYI, my room dimensions are 12' w x 15.3' l x 7.5' h. Room treatment is basically old-school LEDE, with 10 2'x4' panels of 703 in 4" frames hung in the front half of the room, and 6 Skyline diffusers on the rear wall. There is another 24 sq ft of melamine foam on the walls above the absorber frames to reduce slap. Primary bass "absorbtion" is a 4' wide open doorway in the right rear corner. Ceiling is untreated, except for a 4'x4'x2" area of melamine foam between the listening position and the front speakers. Floor is concrete, covered by a thin layer of carpet. It's all pretty primative compared to a Philip Newell design, but it measures +/- 4 dB from 200 Hz up.

Interesting to see how Ethan's business has grown. Both his absorbers and mine owe a debt to the late F. Alton Everest.

David L. Rick
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