Is the API VP26 right for me?

[monkeyxx]

I've had good luck with SM7 -> VP312 on vocals, if that's any indication. the gain doesn't need to be cranked, works nicely

[Radiokopf]

Originally Posted by msquared

I have an RE20 that I use regularly with either the VP25 (kick) or VP26 (floor tom, vocals). It sounds great.

Good to hear. Those are precisely the combinations I was thinking of.

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by Radiokopf

Finished up my VPs a few weeks ago. With the vp26 and Fatheads, I'm really getting some organic "wood on skin" sounds on toms; reminds me a little of the drums on Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous...and I have a JAZZ kit. I love it.


Is there any word on when the "finished" vp26 and vp312 kits will be back in stock? I'd like to get a few more.

Also, has anyone put an RE20 through any of these preamps? I'm very curious.

Hey if you can , post some clips of the sound your getting .

[secret secret]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the interest in the stickers for the bare front panels of the VP26. To make it easier for everyone to get at them, I've put up the Illustrator file on my website: Front Panel Sticker for VP26

Enjoy!

Sam E.

[junior]

Originally Posted by secret secret

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the interest in the stickers for the bare front panels of the VP26. To make it easier for everyone to get at them, I've put up the Illustrator file on my website: Front Panel Sticker for VP26

Enjoy!

Sam E.

Very cool! Thanks, Sam!

[ScumBum]

Hey guys , or maybe Jeff could answer , what DOA is closest to the original thats in Jeff's console which the VP26 is based on ? Also I haven't heard too much about these DOA's , SL-2520 Blue Dot , gar1731 . What instruments are these good for ?

When you record direct bass on the api console , does the signal hit the input transformer or does it go straight to the DOA , like in the 512 and standard 312 ?

[jsteiger]

Originally Posted by ScumBum

Hey guys , or maybe Jeff could answer , what DOA is closest to the original thats in Jeff's console which the VP26 is based on ?

To my ears, the gar2520 and the red dot are the closest. The gar2520 maybe just a few microns closer. The red dot is a little more detailed in the upper mids where the gar2520 is smoother. Across the rest of the spectrum they are both about as close to a vintage Huntington 2520 as you will find. Some opinions may vary.

Also I haven't heard too much about these DOA's , SL-2520 Blue Dot , gar1731 . What instruments are these good for ?

The blue is most like the current version of the 2520. A little cleaner than the red but not in a hard or harsh way. Some guys have reported back to me that a blue dot in a VP312 is their fav for OH and room mics. The 1731 was Melcor's predecessor to the 2520. This is the DOA that the 2520 was based on. It is a little smoother than a 2520 all the way around but ironically still has a cool and familiar mid forward thing going on. From what I have seen, the gar1731 is most preferred in the VP312. It is a fun and cheap build though so maybe some experimenting is in order?

When you record direct bass on the api console , does the signal hit the input transformer or does it go straight to the DOA , like in the 512 and standard 312 ?

There is no DI on my console. The only way is a direct box so yes, you would be going thru the input transformer. From what I know, the straight into the 2520 method did not come around until the 512. I do know that Bo Hansen was doing a DI mod for 325 and 312 cards around the mid 1970's. I don't think the 512 came out until the mid '80's when Paul took over. Brent was also doing something similar around that time. I wouldn't be surprised though if Saul and the boys were doing this or recommending something like this back in their era.

Best, Jeff

[DaVogi]

Hi Jeff,
could you please tell us when the 312DI-Kits will be available again? I'm really looking forward building them... thx!

[ScumBum]

Wow , thanks for all the info Jeff !

Whats the difference between the API 3232 console and a 2488 as far as the mic pres and VC528 ? Any different parts , is the sound different between the two consoles ?

And thanks for making the VP26 and Missing Link . I get excited everytime I get to record now because back when I got into recording gear the only thing I ever really wanted was an API console . Now I finally have that sound !! Never stop making this stuff !!

[skybluerental]

i would like to chime in again here and sing some praise for Jeff and the VP26's.

quick story.
a while back my partner bought 4 of the VP26 kits and built them. he was using them for his personal recordings in our B room mostly, but once in a while on a big session we would bring them up to the A room when we needed a few extra quality pre's.
they always sounded GREAT on whatever they ended up recording and it got me thinking....................

so, i did a bunch of tests comparing my Dakings, BAE 1073's and the VP26's.

the bottom line was, they all sounded great, but any time i actually had a preference in sound on a source, it was the VP26. overall, they stacked up the best and just consistently sounded great. in fact, to my ears the VP26's sounded overall a wee bit BETTER than the Dakings and BAE on several sources. dont get me wrong, the Dakings and BAE sound great too. i could (and have) made whole records that sound great with just the Dakings or BAE's any day...............

long story short, i sold the BAE and 6 of my 8 Dakings and replaced them with a lunchbox full of VP26's. i kept 2 of my old vertical Daking mic pre/EQ's because the EQ is wonderful on those things for certain applications, but for the most part we are now using CAPI VP26's to record almost everything and i could not be any happier.

for me, it was a win/win because for once i actually prefer the sound of the thing that costs less. rare in my world.

bottom line, jeff is great to deal with and the VP26's sound amazing on everything.
a true modern classic in the making.

end story.

[jsteiger]

Originally Posted by DaVogi

Hi Jeff,
could you please tell us when the 312DI-Kits will be available again? I'm really looking forward building them... thx!

As soon as the 2503 transformers arrive, they will be in stock again. I expected the iron last week so hopefully today or one day soon this week. Keeping parts on the shelf has been ridiculous almost all year. Frustrating as can be from this end.

Whats the difference between the API 3232 console and a 2488 as far as the mic pres and VC528 ? Any different parts , is the sound different between the two consoles ?

The input channels including the mic pre circuit should be the same. The PCB's are all the same. The only difference will be when they switched to the Jensen inputs. Sometimes you will find a 2157 instead of 2623-1 but I think they are really the same thing according to Ed. The VC528 part of the circuit is also the same on the input channels. There were some differences with summing, 325's and booster amps but pretty much the same overall circuits.

@skybluerental, thanks for the kind words!

Cheers, Jeff

[ScumBum]

Thanks for the info Jeff .


I wanted a direct comparison with the VP26 with the VP312 overhead , so I recorded something , check it out .

Classic api - VP26 & VP312DI (audio samples)

[Radiokopf]

ScumBum,
I am in the middle of some fairly hectic organization around the house at the moment and don't currently have the means to post any clips, but I'll see what I can do when the dust settles and I can get back to business.


Jeff,
I noticed that the transformers are on their way. Do you have an idea of when the "finished" vp26 and vp312 kits will be back in stock?

[jsteiger]

Originally Posted by Radiokopf

...I noticed that the transformers are on their way. Do you have an idea of when the "finished" vp26 and vp312 kits will be back in stock?

I received the finished faceplates yesterday for both of the above mentioned kits. I know it doesn't help a lot without the iron though. Ed did tell me that the winder was moving to 2623-1's after they finished the 2503's so hopefully not too long. We are at their mercy.

Best, Jeff

[Radiokopf]

Thanks for the info, Jeff.

Originally Posted by monkeyxx

I've had good luck with SM7 -> VP312 on vocals, if that's any indication. the gain doesn't need to be cranked, works nicely

With the RE20, at least on vocals, I've usually got the gain in the late afternoon range (2-3 o'clock) with no attenuation to get a usable signal (vp26).

What style of music/vocalists are you recording with the sm7/vp312 combo, and what are your gain settings looking like? Thanks in advance.

[monkeyxx]

Originally Posted by Radiokopf

Thanks for the info, Jeff.



With the RE20, at least on vocals, I've usually got the gain in the late afternoon range (2-3 o'clock) with no attenuation to get a usable signal (vp26).

What style of music/vocalists are you recording with the sm7/vp312 combo, and what are your gain settings looking like? Thanks in advance.

it's mostly been ballady male vocals, some softer acoustic songs, some slightly louder power pop stuff, and one almost whisper quiet female. gain was around noon plus or minus a quarter turn...never full up. I was afraid to put it full up because I thought there might be some coloration there and I was going for clarity. in the DAW (24 bit) I raised the audio level, and there was plenty to work with. if it's TOO quiet you end up with this lego looking super bit reduced waveform, that didn't occur, there was ample detail in the recording to sound nice and get boosted a bit. I'll have to experiment with higher gains at some point for comparison. with a screamer or a belter you might even have to back the gain down a bit on a VP preamp



today I recorded alto saxophone with an MD441 into the VP312 and the results were excellent, prompting compliments from the musicians. We also used an N72 with a 2247 SE and that sounded amazing as well. I'm sure I could have used the VP312 but the N72 was plugged in and sounded fine/great.

[ScumBum]

I'm selling my VP312DI's if anyones interested http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...di-s-pair.html

[ScumBum]

Hey guys , check out this song I recorded and Mixed . Its all VP26 and Missing Link .


http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...ml#post6936677

[monkeyxx]

here's a quick gain level tweak test with the SM7 and VP312 on vocals. I think it's a good combination, and the attenuator is handy in this case

SM7 into VP312, gain variations

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by monkeyxx

here's a quick gain level tweak test with the SM7 and VP312 on vocals. I think it's a good combination, and the attenuator is handy in this case

SM7 into VP312, gain variations

Its hard to tell which I like better without hearing it in the mix . But solo I like the 60% gain better , more smooth , full low end , thicker vocal . You should try with the gain as low as possible . I've been doing a 57 into the 26 with the gain all the way down . Then with the Link I turn up the level alittle before it goes to Pro Tools .

[TimS]

Originally Posted by rob61

The VP25 has the mid presence, compression, and mellower highs like the VP26, but with more girth in the low end more like the VP312. I would suspect it is a function of the larger output transformer used in the VP25 and VP312. Its a nice mix of the VP26 and VP312. We did a shootout on DI bass, and the VP25 was the winner of the 3. Remember, the DOA can also affect the results as well. We tested with both the gar2520 and the red dots.

Thanks! This is the best description of the VP25 I've heard yet.

I'm curious though: do you also find that the VP25 is a bit more open than the VP26 (a bit more detail in the highs and a bit less compression/saturation overall), or is the bass the only difference between it and the VP26?

And if it's not asking too much, would you mind posting a clip of the VP25 on, well, anything (although acoustic guitar if possible would be awesome)? There are a bunch of VP312 and VP26 clips available but nothing on the VP25, so anything you could share would be greatly appreciated.

[ScumBum]

Hey guys I'm redoing all the stuff I posted because I picked up a BLA Sparrow Converter . So far I've redone the drums , bass and DI Guitar .

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...o-samples.html

[msquared]

Originally Posted by TimS

I'm curious though: do you also find that the VP25 is a bit more open than the VP26 (a bit more detail in the highs and a bit less compression/saturation overall), or is the bass the only difference between it and the VP26?

For the sake of discussion let's say that the opposite of "open" is "focused" rather than "choked" or "anemic". The short answer is yes, that characteristic is across the range of frequencies rather than just in the bass, though it's most obvious at lower frequencies. The TLDR answer is:

The VP26, while great across all frequencies, does tend to have a sound that I consider to be aggressive and mid-focused compression when the input gain is cranked and the output attenuation is brought to bear. When you dial all of that back and just use it for light levels of amplification, the aggression is gone but there is a small sense of focus that remains. In either case it is a large dose of exactly what the doctor ordered for things like drums or electric guitar which often tend to be multiple sound source and multiple mic affairs. Not only do I have to work a lot less hard to make the ensemble recording sound great but I do it without managing to imbue it with some signature thumbprint (eg: '80s Trace Elliot bass amps, Neve mic pres, Evans Hydraulic drum heads). Rather than "repackaging" the sound, it's like the smaller output transformer ever so slightly attenuates all of the crap I didn't really need in the first place.

The VP25 by comparison tends to reproduce everything more "naturally" without so much muscle flexing. Yes, there is more bass. There is more top end as well. The focus is more subtle. The saturation, which I consider different than the compression, seems to be very similar to the VP26. This pre is what I really love if I'm recording a solo acoustic guitar section because there is a richness I get that would annoy the crap out of me if I had six other instruments to bring into the mix. I also like it a lot on synths. There is still some focus there, and I find it to be nice on kick drum and floor toms - especially if I'm going to be doing a mix where the low end will be owned by the drums with the bass guitar frequencies being in a different place.

Thankfully I don't have to pick between a console full of the VP25 or the VP26 because both are essential to me. The VP25 would win by a nose, though.

Caveat: The above is a lot of hair splitting, probably more than you'd consider when comparing other mic preamps. There is literally only one component that differs between these two pieces of gear. If you're swapping DOAs you may, depending on your workflow, find the DOA difference to have a greater effect than VP25 vs VP26.

[TimS]

Originally Posted by msquared

For the sake of discussion let's say that the opposite of "open" is "focused" rather than "choked" or "anemic". The short answer is yes, that characteristic is across the range of frequencies rather than just in the bass, though it's most obvious at lower frequencies. The TLDR answer is:

The VP26, while great across all frequencies, does tend to have a sound that I consider to be aggressive and mid-focused compression when the input gain is cranked and the output attenuation is brought to bear. When you dial all of that back and just use it for light levels of amplification, the aggression is gone but there is a small sense of focus that remains. In either case it is a large dose of exactly what the doctor ordered for things like drums or electric guitar which often tend to be multiple sound source and multiple mic affairs. Not only do I have to work a lot less hard to make the ensemble recording sound great but I do it without managing to imbue it with some signature thumbprint (eg: '80s Trace Elliot bass amps, Neve mic pres, Evans Hydraulic drum heads). Rather than "repackaging" the sound, it's like the smaller output transformer ever so slightly attenuates all of the crap I didn't really need in the first place.

The VP25 by comparison tends to reproduce everything more "naturally" without so much muscle flexing. Yes, there is more bass. There is more top end as well. The focus is more subtle. The saturation, which I consider different than the compression, seems to be very similar to the VP26. This pre is what I really love if I'm recording a solo acoustic guitar section because there is a richness I get that would annoy the crap out of me if I had six other instruments to bring into the mix. I also like it a lot on synths. There is still some focus there, and I find it to be nice on kick drum and floor toms - especially if I'm going to be doing a mix where the low end will be owned by the drums with the bass guitar frequencies being in a different place.

Thankfully I don't have to pick between a console full of the VP25 or the VP26 because both are essential to me. The VP25 would win by a nose, though.

Caveat: The above is a lot of hair splitting, probably more than you'd consider when comparing other mic preamps. There is literally only one component that differs between these two pieces of gear. If you're swapping DOAs you may, depending on your workflow, find the DOA difference to have a greater effect than VP25 vs VP26.

Thanks - this post is a huge help for me!

I think the main thing that was bugging me about the clips I heard of the VP26 wasn't the bandwidth so much as I just wanted to hear the instruments breathe more. I love the way the VP26 seems to naturally get rid of all the unnecessary sonic clutter, but it just seems a little too focused for my tastes. Your description of the VP25 as having a more subtle focus sounds like it could be just what I'm looking for.

Regarding that extra richness in the VP25 that you said works great for sparser mixes but would be troublesome in denser ones: do you think that issue could be resolved by running the VP25 in conjunction with high and lowpass filters, or is it more than just the increased bandwidth that gets in the way?

[msquared]

Re: the VP25 vs VP26 and density, it's horses for courses. Just how troublesome it would be would really depend on a lot of things. Yeah, a high pass and low pass would probably be one way to fix that, compression might be another. It just depends. It's certainly not an insurmountable obstacle, even for the novice mixer.

Re: breathing (or not), the problem with any sound clips is that you never really get a feel for how the gear works in a variety of situations. It's a decent sampler but knowing its place in your workflow only really happens with hands-on use. If you didn't hear something breathe, you never really know if it was the settings of the preamp or the characteristics of the preamp itself. Everyone has different ideas of what the right settings for input gain vs output attenuation for a different situation.

[drBill]

My VP-26's breathe just fine. When I wake them up and tell them it's time to play, they breathe REALLY sexy. Enough to freak me out if I'm wearing phones...... Makes me want to sell all my other pre's when I hear them singing their siren song......

They are the API for the digital age. End of story. That said, I know what you're talking about - this breathing thing - but if you're not hearing air around your sounds, I'd humbly, humbly suggest you listen again or do your own test or choose a different mic, reposition said mic, or check your monitoring.










Of course, all are allowed to disagree with me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Sold my Shadow Hills GAMA, my API 512C's, some chiNeve clones, a pair of spare D&R's to make money and room for the 26's, and I'd probably even sell my La Chapelle's for more 26's or maybe some Missing Links. They FIT in the digital mix like nothing else. Of course, IMNSHO.....




PS - DISCLAIMER - I haven't tried the 25's, so who knows, maybe I'd like them better, but I find the thought distressing, and I'm trying to buy less pre
s not more pre's......tutt

[monkeyxx]

for my money the 26 didn't "breathe" enough for me, which was my main complaint with them, so that's why I switched to VP312, which do, and which is why I want a ton of those now as my main preamps. drBill don't kill me! it's nice to have three choices in this product line. I'd be curious to hear the VP25 sometime

[TimS]

Yeah, at the moment I think I'm leaning toward building a couple VP25s with red dots and maybe a couple of VP312s with 1731s. The idea being that the VP25s will hopefully get me in the ballpark of the VP26s with just a touch more detail and openness, and that the combination of the far more open VP312s with the smoother 1731 opamps will make for a nice sound that's a bit more even and less aggressive in the mids, but will still mix nicely with the VP25 recorded tracks.

And if nothing else I figure I can always swap the transformer out and turn the VP25s into VP26s if I'm not happy with them.

[msquared]

I can't really contribute to the "breathing" discussion. I always thought that was a compressor term more than anything else.

Tim, I also recommend checking out Compatible Operational Amplifiers - Eisen Audio, LLC during your DOA investigations. Lots of info there, most of it not relevant but it's certainly a list of stuff. If you don't mind spending a little extra for prebuilt, definitely check out Purple Audio's KDJ4 DOA in whatever preamps you end up building.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by monkeyxx

drBill don't kill me!

LOL No way man. Anyone smart enough to use any of the CAPI's is AOK in my book. I think the main variables are - 1. how we hear things; 2. the type/style music we work on; 3. what opamp we have installed. Although, not necessarily in that order.

Here's my main reason for loving the vp26's. HF sexiness is alluring. It always wins out over "dull" (or more in vogue) "warm" sounds. Problem is, recording digitally, I need to put LOW PASS filters or saturation on everything to get it to SIT IN THE MIX right and sound analog. It's a PITA, and not very successfully/easily done in the digital domain. (As much as I mix, it still takes time and experimentation with each tune.) The vp-26 helps out with that tremendously. Although my 512B's sound fantastic, they just don't slide into a mix as easily as the vp26's. That's a fact. And I do everything from chamber music, to huge film scores, to greasy funk, to R&R to smooth jazz to solo piano to everything in between.

The B's sound more "open" and have a degree of sexiness that the 26's don't initially exude.

Honest, I hear what you're saying. Your esthetic is obviously different than mine, and that's 100% cool. Since I'm mixing hybrid or ITB these days, the 26 just gets me there QUICKER, and more elegantly. Different strokes!!!