I hate digital sound...Should I spend big money for expensive converters?

[mdme_sadie]

I think you should either:

a) Just use the tools that you're happy with and not worry what anyone else thinks. You like the sound of Analoue, you enjoy using those tools, therefore what possible gain is there for you to spend the big bucks on something that will only roughly approximate the tone you want while leaving you with the tools and workflow that don't unleash your true creativity.

or

b) Stop working against it start working with it. You dislike what you hear, well too often we get precious about stuff and geeky and anal and oh.. we just screw up because we're not comfortable and scared to screw up. So sometimes it's great to on purpose set out to make something that you don't like, to take what you dislike further than every before. It can help you atune and work around a problem and improve your own critical facility to work out exactly how and why something isn't turning out right and how to fix it so that you're happy. You know why to you your songs on digital sound bad, therefore really push that bad side, be bombastic. If they sound too clinical then try to make something that is so electronic that the 80's calls asking for it's mix back, i bet that if you did you'd end up with something that you liked and you'd work out how to make it sound good, not the same but good in a different way, and still yours. Seriously though it's a great way to push yourself musically and to turn a weakness into an strength and also get over yourself and your issues with digital (I mean that in a nice way, it's how I think of it and about myself).

Or at least you should try those two first and then re-evaluate exactly why it is that you need to be spending so much money (gearlust is a terrible thing for your bank account).

[dibravibra]

for a start buy older Apogee PSX-100 stereo AD/DA. It has great analog feel. Don't buy new stuff from Apogee. I had Rosseta and didn't like it at all..

[lucey]

Originally Posted by dibravibra

for a start buy older Apogee PSX-100 stereo AD/DA. It has great analog feel. Don't buy new stuff from Apogee. I had Rosseta and didn't like it at all..

But Rosetta is not "new stuff" .... AD-16X is relatively new

[ARIEL]

It all leads to your mixing and recording skill in the sense of having to get used to the digital tone of clarity , analogue tends to round and smooth things out at times , If it sounds harsh , then it is your mix or sources you are recording. I have heard some really good stuff done on cheap converters and harsh sounding stuff done all analogue . Mind you good plug ins will help bigtime - UAD , SSL etc. DOnt give up on the digi format too soon .

[pchoworth]

Originally Posted by Knox

I'm with you . . . . that's why I am still analog. Front to back as well as left to right depth is only percieved in digital, to me. I hate the high end without really good converters. And the low end is still not right. Not long ago, a client brought in a big rig to do a transfer. As it was being transferred, I walked out in the tracking room to stretch my legs. I heard him switch from source / back to the transfer a few times . . . man it was like night and day, even though I was 50 feet away. The digital sounded tiny with no balls next to tape. You could even hear the expansion of depth and dimension from the distance I was from the speakers. Why anyone would make rock records on digital is beyond me. Jingles, Britney Spears style pop . . . sure. Classic jazz / rock . . no way. I have a nice old plate here . . I can put a lexicon verb on something in the mix . . sounds nice, but it sounds like a paint or stain across the track and on TOP of the track compared to the plate falling down IN the mix. I am getting to the point where I can't even listen to new records since ProTools / digital has taking over. Given the fact that new engineers have no experience with analog AND new producer / engineers wanting to 'correct' everything . . . plus, the fact that many people have accepted mp3s as good enough, it's a sad time for recording music to me.

Don't know if you'll be reading this real soon, as your message was written 7 years ago, but here goes... When I read about how you detest digital sound as well as the tendency of new engineers to "correct" the sound they encounter, I actually felt a lump in my throat and came the closest that I have to crying in a while. Music as I know it, as a pure, unadulterated pleasure that was meant to be apprehended by technology rather than destroyed by it, died in the early 1980s. I began saying goodbye with the advent of the CD, which to me was another huge kiss of death. Thank God my nine year old daughter feels the same way. BRING BACK ANALOG, tapes, turntables, and tube amps, ASAP to the music industry, so I won't have to keep sampling from a catalog of songs thirty years old or more.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by pchoworth

Don't know if you'll be reading this real soon, as your message was written 7 years ago, but here goes... When I read about how you detest digital sound as well as the tendency of new engineers to "correct" the sound they encounter, I actually felt a lump in my throat and came the closest that I have to crying in a while. Music as I know it, as a pure, unadulterated pleasure that was meant to be apprehended by technology rather than destroyed by it, died in the early 1980s. I began saying goodbye with the advent of the CD, which to me was another huge kiss of death. Thank God my nine year old daughter feels the same way. BRING BACK ANALOG, tapes, turntables, and tube amps, ASAP to the music industry, so I won't have to keep sampling from a catalog of songs thirty years old or more.

I was born in 1981. So I don't quite fit into your experience, but, as a listener, I hear the differences and appreciate the differences. When I hear the types of sounds that I want to go for, I get inspired to create and paint with them, to forge my own sound. I listen to records, for enjoyment mostly, but don't mind the other digital mediums too...whatever....though I'd like to build some tube amps for the speakers in my living room.

Certainly can't tell anyone else what color to paint with, and you really wouldn't want to anyway....We simply need to individualize ourselves. If the world, goes towards bright, thin edgy stuff, than so be it. I will be here in my "warm smooth fat" lazy boy recliner.

As far as BRING BACK ANALOG, yes, I agree...but I think its something that never went away. Well, maybe that's not fair. I would just guess that its not greatly appreciated by the majority. Or maybe they just don't know. I think they would know if they had the chance to hear it, which is a rare occasion. So Times have changed, but everything has to come full circle, eventually. The world is expanding every day. You get all of it...the good with the bad.

To Knox's point, I absolutely do believe I am acclimated to my experiences, and I have understood along the way that everything in audio is about some sort of compromise, sadly. Though with all the choices and facility in our studios, today, we are trying to minimize the degree, and retain as much of the true analog depth that exists within a complex sound, as we can possibly muster. To me, using the gear because of the character it is representing, simply makes more sense in a creative way. Somehow I feel trying to be completely invisible is impossible.

I think we're pretty far along, with all the gear out there today. As far as sound and build quality goes. Sure, they don't make em like they use to! That's for sure!

But, I think there is in fact, gear being made today, that completely fulfills this above request. There are people who build precision analog gear by a process of listening, towards bringing a unique sound into the world, as they hear it. In 2012 we have Replica RCA Ribbons, Tubed/Trafo'd ADDA Converters, CLASP'd up DAW/Tape synchronizers, Mini Console's with Snap Shot recall, Traditional Plate Reverb with Digitally Control Damper, Olden style Trafo'd Tube gear, built with modern spec, and Super High Fidelity Solid amps that sound like they put your head inside the instrument on the front of a digital recording device...

These tools are designed by madmen on a never ending mission....

The way to get the golden analog sound, with a Digital Workstation, is simply to attach the right analog gear to it, and use good sounding ADA converters

This is where the love is, in my book.

peace

[shortstory]

Originally Posted by themaidsroom

i have no nostalgia about analog.
there is only what i hear.
i started with digital.
i spent years making digital sound as good
as it could only to discover that tape with
love and care and great gear sounds
amazing and is easy, very easy.
it translates to all medium

the culture of tape is also the culture
of a social environment with people
together and a culture that is about
documenting great players and encouraging
and inspiring
great players.....i have worked with many top
flight nyc players who all come in the control
room BECAUSE there is a tape machine.....
otherwise they would not care.....
it inspired them to create a great performance
it's magic starts right in the cans at the first
downbeat
it's not about nostalgia
it's about getting to the
heart of this very moment



be well


- jack

I thought this piece of poetry deserved a bump 3 years later.

Carry on-

[Bob Olhsson]

For openers, make sure to use the dithered mixer with a TDM system or some kind of 24 bit dithering plug-in on your outputs. With any kind of acoustically sourced audio, this can make things sound a whole lot less broken. 3 dB of dither prevents 6 dB of added edgy low level distortion.

[lucey]

Metric Halo ULN and LIO 8

[Fezzle]

Originally Posted by sound_forward

I have no experience with very expensive AD-DA converters and I do not have any chance to audition it before buying.

The best converters I have experience with are Protools HD 192 and RME ADI-8 and I also have RME multiface at my project studio.

The problem is that I do not like digital sound at all. Vinly sounds better to me than CD, I like tape, I like analog synths and fx...The only digital equipment I really like are some older effects and samplers (lexicon pcm70, lxp1, roland SDE3000, korg SDD3000, older akai and emu samplers etc.)

I make electronic music (similar production as Rap/hiphop) and I use a lot of vintage analog equipment and mix with analog deck. Sometimes I do everything at my little project studio and sometimes I go to big studio.

The problem is that everytime I get into digital recording I miss the fat tone and warmth and punchyness of analog.

Once we tried recording every track to protools and mix in the box but the result was really bad. Than we went out from PT to analog deck but something was still missing. The best result we found is to keep everything strictly analog and than record final mix to protools.

The funniest thing happened when we tried to record some reverb sounds coming from my little old LXP1 to protools. The result was just funny. Reverb lost its fatness and 3D dissapears. I paid something like 100 EUR for that little box, and it produce superior tone that protools can not reproduce...

My goal is to eliminate the need for big studio because I find better results mixing at my project studio than doing it in a hurry in big one.

The only problem is final conversion because I find RME multiface bad sounding.

Is there a AD-DA converter that can fully record and reproduce analog sound?

I am not looking for superior imaging and amazing signal/noise ratio. I just want a converter that sounds analog but without further coloring.

For example, If I spend big money for 2ch converters like apogee-mytek-lavry...will I get a closer tone to analog or I just pay for lower noise and better imaging?

I really do not need super specs because my production is full of noises and it is nothing like hi-fi production. I just want that analog tone.

Thanks

Apparently this will get you closer to the depth and surround of analog tracking. Worth a serious look, no noise whatsoever, whaattt!?

The AD8 |

[Fezzle]

Originally Posted by themaidsroom

i have no nostalgia about analog.
there is only what i hear.
i started with digital.
i spent years making digital sound as good
as it could only to discover that tape with
love and care and great gear sounds
amazing and is easy, very easy.
it translates to all medium

the culture of tape is also the culture
of a social environment with people
together and a culture that is about
documenting great players and encouraging
and inspiring
great players.....i have worked with many top
flight nyc players who all come in the control
room BECAUSE there is a tape machine.....
otherwise they would not care.....
it inspired them to create a great performance
it's magic starts right in the cans at the first
downbeat
it's not about nostalgia
it's about getting to the
heart of this very moment



be well


- jack

Slammin verse mate, I tinks you have the good idea. Im not surprised alot of music has suffered these days, given technology has overtaken our own systemic nature through purposeful thinking. In my book that 'progress' aint compatible with producing art whether youre wittling wood or recording music.

[Suda Badri]

Manley SLAM digital <--- OP might be interested to look this up, even though manley themselves state its coulourless, its still euphonic. Id save up for one, cranesong is great too, would love to hear the JCF AD8!!

But alas, my metric halo uln8 doesnt leave me wanting for much more....

And also Digital chips are due for haul over sometime in the near future (they evolve all the time really), DSD could perk its head up more (which would be great, given people are willing to invest in it) i think a lot of the magic lost wont be as lost...

[jayson_p]

Funny thing how much advice this thread gave to the OP to just look for a new box. At no point did he mention - nor did anyone ask - what bit depth and sample rate he was working at or what the signal chain before and after the converters was. If he had lousy filters chopping out the harmonics and dynamics because he was working at 16/44.1 that might raise a warning flag to me as being part of his problem.

I used the RME Multiface for years and never found it to be that bad. Granted it's not a Mytec, Lavry, Lynx or even Apogee but when I would play tracks recorded on it back on other systems with better conversion it was OK - especially when you considered the Multiface's price point. I certainly wouldn't have said it was overtly "digital" - especially if you compared it to an ADAT, Mackie D8B or an M-Audio 1010 or a MOTU box from that era.

[WunderBro Flo]

Originally Posted by sound_forward

The funniest thing happened when we tried to record some reverb sounds coming from my little old LXP1 to protools. The result was just funny. Reverb lost its fatness and 3D dissapears. I paid something like 100 EUR for that little box, and it produce superior tone that protools can not reproduce...

Based on that experience you posted, I respectfully would like to bring something to your attention: you sound like you could be very biased, which results in an inability to make proper judgements. We "hear" what we expect/fear/want to hear, this is a scientifically proven fact. I think you should get one good ad/da converter (like a mytek) and then spend time with it together with a buddy and do several sessions where you set up precisely level matched, double blind AB tests. I highly doubt that a good converter (hell, even a not so high endish converter) is unable to capture a digital (!) device from circa 1989 in a way that makes it impossible to tell it from the original. The fact that you heard dramatic quality loss gives me a clue that the error has to be found somewhere else, most probably your perception. I love analog equipment and sound like anyone else, but I know that 99% of all listeners are unable to detect a DA-AD loopback even when using middle of the road converters like SSL Alphalinks, even in good monitoring environments.

I educated myself many years ago by doubting my own impressions and verifying them (or not) with level matched blind tests. Now I know precisely where I can´t trust my gut-judgements and how to get valid judgements when necessary. It made me a better engineer, producer and musician.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by sound_forward

...when we tried to record some reverb sounds coming from my little old LXP1 to protools. The result was just funny. Reverb lost its fatness and 3D dissapears...

That's exactly what it sounds like when you don't dither the output of Pro Tools! Better converters won't fix it.

[the octopuss]

start recording real instuments , played by real people, thru real mics
...
it' more about that ,than a debate of tape vs daw...

or if you "produce" electro

you can use only computer just if you sample other people (dj premier,justice,daft punk..drums on vinyll...etc)

to make your own shit...(be brave)
you will need good sources !!... so... good synths and good DI's and good fx and good ad/da and good eq and good luck also...

or a clever mix of both

[David Spearritt]

Interesting how the human race blames something disagreeable on the wrong culprits. Makes one wonder where we'd be if this didn't happen.

[c1ferrari]

Well, I thought I might as well throw in, too...

The closest analog-sounding digital, in my extremely limited experience, is DSD.
IF you can keep it in DSD w/o PCM conversion -- you might find something which merits pursuit.