Login / Register
 
why compress the 2 buss?
New Reply
Subscribe
boboji
Thread Starter
#1
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #1
Gear maniac
 
boboji's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: san diego
Posts: 231

Thread Starter
boboji is offline
why compress the 2 buss?

If you're going to send out your mix for mastering anyway aren't you getting in the mastering engineers way?

I know this is high end but I read threads about people using the RNC for this.
Dosen't the fact that it is unbalanced just totally #$% you???
#2
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #2
Lives for gear
 
C_F_H_13's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 838

C_F_H_13 is offline
I personally always compress the mixbuss a little. It seems to get my mixes to "gel" together a little better. I also do this so the mastering engineer has a little LESS control. I've had a couple of mixes come back a little too different when i didn't, so a little compression keeps the mastering from F@ckin up my mix too much.

As far as the RNC as a mixbuss compressor, I've never heard that before but I'm sure someone does it. There are 10 million different for compressors out there. Both hardware and software versions on anything you can imagine can really give you anything you want.
#3
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #3
Lives for gear
 
djui5's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 6,661

Send a message via Yahoo to djui5
djui5 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by boboji
If you're going to send out your mix for mastering anyway aren't you getting in the mastering engineers way?
Not if you know what your doing. It's a careful balance. I get the mix the way I like it, then send it out. Not only does it make their job easier, it makes my job easier also. Just don't overdo it.

Quote:
I know this is high end but I read threads about people using the RNC for this.
Dosen't the fact that it is unbalanced just totally #$% you???


Not sure I'd use one of those for the master buss....
__________________
_________________

"What is a crossfire hurricane & why wasn't I born in one?"

Randy Wright
#4
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
JonCraig's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,800

JonCraig is offline
same as what's been said before. a little tasteful (notice the word choice there...) gives a "glue" or "gel" or "yummyness" or (whatever nice word you wanna add here) to the mix.

then the mastering guy slams the hell out of it, boosts 3k, kills it with an L2, and ya call it a record.

also, lots of the demo work i do doesn't ever see a mastering engineer. so it's up to me to slam the hell out of it, boost 3k, kill it with an L2, and call it a record!



(i'm just messing with ya, mastering guys...)

--jon
__________________
"My job is to make music sound great and to not whine too much." --George Massenburg
#5
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #5
Craneslut
 
Brad Blackwood's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: The home of Rock-n-Roll, Memphis, TN
Posts: 1,925

Send a message via AIM to Brad Blackwood
Brad Blackwood is offline
From the Euphonic Masters FAQ:
Quote:
Some mastering engineers will tell you not to compress your mixes, giving various reasons such as the quality of your compressors or your monitoring environment not being up to par, but I disagree. Mix compression radically changes the instrumental balances within the music – if left to the mastering engineer your mix will often come back sounding very different from what you sent. I recommend judicious use of compression, checking the results in various listening environments with varying levels until you are sure it is beneficial. If you feel uncertain, print versions with and without compression, and remember, the mastering engineer is there to polish, not repaint your mixes…
#6
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Musiclab's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Elmont NY
Posts: 8,221
My Recordings/Credits

Musiclab is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by boboji
If you're going to send out your mix for mastering anyway aren't you getting in the mastering engineers way?

I know this is high end but I read threads about people using the RNC for this.
Dosen't the fact that it is unbalanced just totally #$% you???
because it will change you balances. I believe it's also important to get the mix buss compressor on as early as possible and mix into the compressor.
__________________
Lou Gimenez
www.musiclabnyc.com
#7
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #7
Banned
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,099

dbbubba is offline
Do what you need to do to make it sound good!

Nothing makes you feel better than when you send your mixes to a big name mastering house and the guy says, "All I did was add a bit of air at the top and a bit of 50 hz since you said it was tracked to 2" 24 track. The mixes sound very musical."

Not only will this make you feel like you know what you are doing, it also tells you that you have your whole concept of mixing together. At least for the style that you sent him.

Danny Brown
#8
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #8
Banned
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,099

dbbubba is offline
Oh yeah.... this too:

Remeber that compressing and EQing at mastering stage was originally neccesary to fit the master mix tape on vinyl. Compression was used more out of the need to get the dynamic range of analog tape or a live session to fit onto the narrower dynamic range of vinyl. EQ was needed to make the final vinyl version sound somewhat like the master tape. EQ was used to compensate for the fact that vinyl sounded different that the original source.

We just got used to that sound and think of it as normal, but it really wasn't done for asthetic reasons originally.

It does help when done correctly!

Danny Brown
#9
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 3,827

Send a message via Yahoo to Jose Mrochek
Jose Mrochek is offline
my humble opinion is that 2buss should be left for mastering, but play around with it to have a sort of idea of what will happen later, that is what we are doing right now.. trying to imagine what Brad will do later ,inserting a provisional type of compressor and preparing the mix with those calculations.

we do this because 1. we dont have the gear and 2. we don´t know what we are doing : )
__________________
www.thejoti.com

www.myspace.com/thejoti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR116su2Uuo


¨But, then again, I'm British and think you Yanks with your fancy pre for each track are a bunch of weirdos¨ Mark
#10
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: New York Friggin' City
Posts: 2,572

Jim vanBergen is offline
Back when I started, mixing to tape had compressive artifacts. I mixed with VU and not PPM metering. I did not use compression on the mix buss.

After I got into ProTools (hell, it was SoundTools back in 1990) mixing changed significantly, (both for the better and the worse) until I figured out how to mix again inthe computer.

These days, I use a compressor on the mix buss even if it is just gentle limiting. But mixing INTO your buss compressor has a significant impact on your recording. You may or may not like it. But you should try it.
#11
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #11
Banned
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,099

dbbubba is offline
Good point Jose!

I should have said, "Do it IF you have the proper compressor and EQ."

Don't use any compressor available and expect stellar results.

I waited a year to master a project because I wanted to use a specific Neve 33609 and since no one where I live has one or the proper EQ I had to go to a friend's room in Hollywood. Patience paid off big time though.

Danny Brown
boboji
Thread Starter
#12
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #12
Gear maniac
 
boboji's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: san diego
Posts: 231

Thread Starter
boboji is offline
What would be the starting arena for a 2 buss compressor? I have one distressor and four RNC's.
#13
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #13
Lives for gear
 
paterno's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2003
Location: LA
Posts: 1,500

paterno is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
my humble opinion is that 2buss should be left for mastering, but play around with it to have a sort of idea of what will happen later, that is what we are doing right now.. trying to imagine what Brad will do later ,inserting a provisional type of compressor and preparing the mix with those calculations.

we do this because 1. we dont have the gear and 2. we don´t know what we are doing : )
I have to disagree. The last thing you want to be doing is guessing what someone else is going to do to your work, even if you like what they do.

Brad Blackwood's post makes the most sense by far. Make it as great as you can before you turn it over to anyone to even listen to, let alone master. It may take some trial and error to figure out what works for you, but you'll end up disappointed in the end if you are not proactive about it.

And, if you're going to use buss compression, mix with it on all the time -- don't just stick it on at the end. Again, Brad's post has some good advice...

Cheers,
John
__________________
All Music Credits
#14
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #14
Lives for gear
 
paterno's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2003
Location: LA
Posts: 1,500

paterno is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba
Do what you need to do to make it sound good!

Nothing makes you feel better than when you send your mixes to a big name mastering house and the guy says, "All I did was add a bit of air at the top and a bit of 50 hz since you said it was tracked to 2" 24 track. The mixes sound very musical."
Not to bust chops here Danny, but why would someone automatically add a bit of 50 Hz 'since you said it was tracked to 2" 24 track'? Seems a bit odd to me.

John
#15
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #15
Gear Head
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54

jim demetri is offline
if your client is going to be mastering then DONT TOUCH the mix buss . the amount of times i have seen mastering enginerrs freek out at some of the mixes they get is quite frightning . thats what a mastering engineer does nothing more nothing less he ,she works on your 2ch output. start f..king about with it and there is less that he can do . contary to popular opinon he,she cannot undo anything that you did on the mix stage . the mastering engineers worst enemy has got to be those mastering plugins and the finalizer thingy. they try to do in a couple of seconds what a good mastering engineer has take years to learn , and all they do is add loads and loads of distortion and phase cancelations. im a sound engineer NOT a mastering engineer and i allways remind my clients of that .
#16
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #16
Pragmatic Snob
 
u b k's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: The Land of Sunshine
Posts: 12,297

u b k is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim demetri
if your client is going to be mastering then DONT TOUCH the mix buss . the amount of times i have seen mastering enginerrs freek out at some of the mixes they get is quite frightning .

my thinking is that if the ME is freaking out, it's not because something was done, it's because something was done badly.

so the moral of the story is, "if you compress, do it well."

also, IME the rnc is not a good 2 buss comp.


gregoire
del ubik
#17
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 
chriscoleman's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 549

chriscoleman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim demetri
the amount of times i have seen mastering enginerrs freek out at some of the mixes they get is quite frightning
Let there not be confusion between gluing the mix together with a bit of properly-applied compression and smashing the mix with a brickwall limiter.

I'll compress a mix for the euphonic glue and excitement it can impart (if it works for that specific project, of course), but I leave plenty of headroom for the ME. If any ME were to freak out over that, then they're not someone I want to be working with.

Using a finalizer or L2 will tie the ME's hands a bit, and that's still not worth freaking out over. Rather than spaz out, a respectable ME should simply request that they be supplied with an additional mix without the limiting.
#18
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #18
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 285

karl is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
Not to bust chops here Danny, but why would someone automatically add a bit of 50 Hz 'since you said it was tracked to 2" 24 track'? Seems a bit odd to me.

John
Maybe to accentuate any mains hum!
#19
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #19
Lives for gear
 
JonCraig's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,800

JonCraig is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by karl
Maybe to accentuate any mains hum!
depends on which side of the pond you're on, though... or how tight your Q is on that EQ...



--jon
#20
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #20
Gear Head
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54

jim demetri is offline
maybe im to old school but when i finish a mix i tend to monitor it on as many grubby little speakers i can get my hands on . then when im happy i leave it be . yes sometimes i add just a hint of compression on the output but that is only to tiddy some of my mistakes . if im doing a major project i wouldent even think about it . normally there is a budget for me to go to the mastering stage and sometimes i go even if there isent . i have a handfull of mastering engineers that i trust some good at dance some good at rock ect ect . ok if its a young no money client then do what you can to make it sound as good as posible . but the problem is nowdays its not how good it sounds but how load you can get it .
this is one thing that really getts my goat up why the f...k dont you just turn the volume button up instead of compressing the thing so much it sounds like s..t. thats what i mean about leave it alone.
#21
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
 
cdog's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 3,999

cdog is offline
I'm officially off two buss "compression" except in rare cases when I want to make the mix "softer" sounding.

For me, 2-3db clean peak limiting is much more musical and doesn't fukk with my arrangement and transients.

I tend to mix with the kick and snare WAY up, and compression just fights those two to the detriment of the mix.

I used to have a C2 and an Ibis but now I just use the UA Precision Limiter and EQ (yes I just said that), with the occasional Voxengo Marquis Compressor in there for "softening."

The job of a mastering engineer is to transfer your songs into redbook format or prepre it for vinyl.... its not to "fix the mix" or make your mix sound "better."

If your mastering engineer feels its necessary to appreciably alter the equalization or dynamics of your mix, I would work on your mixing.

Its true, some mix engineers need "premastering", as a band aid for poor mix monitoring or bad decision making.

But, a truly great mix needs not even a touch up.

Music is art.

There is no "correct" way. Its what you feel is right.

The again, I'm not trying to crack the Top40, so take everything I say with a shaker of salt.

#22
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #22
Gear nut
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 126

Yoni is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdog
The job of a mastering engineer is to transfer your songs into redbook format or prepre it for vinyl.... its not to "fix the mix" or make your mix sound "better."

If your mastering engineer feels its necessary to appreciably alter the equalization or dynamics of your mix, I would work on your mixing.


Not really. The job of a mastering engineer is whatever you need to hire him for. If you need him to make your mix better because he's got years more experience and higher quality gear for this purpose, then it's his job to treat the 2 buss. If your mix is happening just fine, then I would say it is still his job to make sure your slammin' mix translates well to other systems. That's what a properly treated room for mastering plus his ears do for you. Now if you can take care of all that on your own, hats off to you and there's really no need for a mastering engineer. It's not that hard to make a CD these days.
#23
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Inside my brain...
Posts: 3,242

Lawrence is offline
I will echo what has been said here 2 or 3 times already...

Compression wil change the levels of your mix. Don't believe it? Add a few db and you'll see.

Now the question is do you want the ME to make those decisions or do you want to do that during mixing so that you can adjust for it? I have a routine of mixing something to the point where I think it's done, then I'll apply 2-buss compression to gel it together and make it sound like a record. What happens is that I'll have to go back and rewrite a few tracks of automation because levels will change.

It happens every time. I expect it. It's okay though because the end result will have the balances I want AND the gel I want. This is just my way of doing it. Many will strap a compressor across the 2-buss right at the start. I don't.

This is also why I don't use Wavelab anymore to "master" my songs at home. When the levels/balances change I have to resort to EQ, when I "master" with the entire multitrack mix running in the DAW I can adjust levels and automation without using eq to compensate for the changes that happened.

Sounds much better to me. To each his own.

Lawrence
boboji
Thread Starter
#24
29th November 2005
Old 29th November 2005
  #24
Gear maniac
 
boboji's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: san diego
Posts: 231

Thread Starter
boboji is offline
RNC Yeah or neah until I get something else!!!!!!
#25
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #25
Lives for gear
 
JonCraig's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,800

JonCraig is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by boboji
RNC Yeah or neah until I get something else!!!!!!
does it sound good? isn't that how you should decide? sheesh...

--jon
#26
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #26
Lives for gear
 
PapillonIrl's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 631

PapillonIrl is offline
This should be moved to 'Low End' !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boboji
RNC Yeah or neah until I get something else!!!!!!
When I mix rock tracks I usually have a 2bus comp in pretty early on at 2:1 or so.

I used to think I owned only three compressor that I would consider usin for this.

One is the Waves RComp plug, one the RNC, and the other an old Ashley dual mono unit.

After comparing all three for the first time on the 2bus I realised that only two are up to the job, and neither of them are made by FMR (even though I love the RNC for tracking).

The RNC seems to react weirdly to the low-end, to the point where I find myself playing with eq to compensate...and then things start sounding smeared down there.

Nathan
#27
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 10,982

Send a message via AIM to Kenny Gioia
Kenny Gioia is offline
IMHO - 2 Buss Compression makes up about 25% of the sound of my records.

I would be nuts to give that much power to someone who will spend 2 or 3 hours on it.

I agree with Brad. Make it sound like a record before Mastering or hire a mixer to do it for you.
__________________
It's a journey. Not a destination. Enjoy yours.

#28
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #28
Lives for gear
 
JonCraig's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,800

JonCraig is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapillonIrl
One is the Waves RComp plug
yeah! renncomp rocks (on just about anything!)

--jon
#29
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #29
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 7,897

James Lugo is offline
produceher, now that's what I'm talkin' bout...
JTR
#30
30th November 2005
Old 30th November 2005
  #30
JTR
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 810

JTR is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by boboji
RNC Yeah or neah until I get something else!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig
does it sound good? isn't that how you should decide? sheesh...

--jon
In your defense, I'd say to JC that knowing when something sounds good is a matter of experience

If your best comp is an RNC, and you're not sure whether to use it, I'd suggest that perhaps your ears and experience need some more projects under your belt, until you can hear the nuances in terms of tone coloration, density and dynamic energy that compression creates.

AND most mix specialists follow up the 2bus comp with a high end EQ to add the final polish. So factor that in too.

So consider the following approach, in order, and consciously listen, while A-B'ng the RNC and comparing your final mixes.

do a mix without it,
followed by a mix with it, but applied at the last stage, and only very slightly; don't go by the meters, use your ears and as soon as you hear it working, stop.
finally, a mix where you switch it in relatively early on; say after you've dialed in your basic low end balance between the kik and bass, and then mix to it. it'll get exciting at points, then sound blah, then you'll readjust, and so forth.

forget balanced vs. unbalanced; short run line level signals that are hot and clean don't really need balancing
your patchbay or console insert is probably unbalanced anyway, so it's moot.

Remember; most of your high profile recordings that had 2 bus compression used stuff like SSL, Neve, GML, or similar high end gear, that really can't be approximated by most plugins or semi-pro stuff like the RNC, regardless of its bang for buck.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
PhonoquO / Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production
0
entheon / So much gear, so little time!
2
Alexi / Low End Theory
2

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.