Status/opinions up till now on the Toft Audio ATB console ?

[androne]

No price indication known yet ?
Does it have direct inserts that bypass the mic preamps when you want to mix line inputs ?
It sure looks great.... what's the sound quality like compared with Cranesong stuff a la Spider ? Any hints ?

Cant wait actually... :-)

[DrDeltaM]

Check this long thread: ******//gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=29871

[Andrew Kinsey]

From my understanding of the litterature on PMI's website, the ATB is not capable of mixing both mic/ line signals together in the input module in the same way as the Trident 8T.

For more information please visit the following link which compares the Trident 8T with the Toft ATB console, you will find it a very interesting read.

******//www.oram.co.uk/trident_toft_comparison.htm

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

From my understanding of the litterature on PMI's website, the ATB is not capable of mixing both mic/ line signals together in the input module in the same way as the Trident 8T.

That'd be a useless feature anyway

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

For more information please visit the following link which compares the Trident 8T with the Toft ATB console, you will find it a very interesting read.

******//www.oram.co.uk/trident_toft_comparison.htm

Not to say that it simply contains false information...

Take the stereo returns for example, the Toft has 8 stereo returns with level and pan, while your comparision sheet talks about 2 fixed level returns...

[Jack Ross]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

That'd be a useless feature anyway

Actually DrDelta, it's a really useful feature. The mic input has a unity gain mode that accepts full line levels and so I can use it as an extra input when I'm mixing and with both inputs active, I can adjust two inputs there and with the tape return used as well that gives me 3 returns per channel. Only one EQ for the 3, but I do have a lot of samples that don't need any treatment. I've got loads of inputs in tiny real estate here.

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Jack Ross

Actually DrDelta, it's a really useful feature. The mic input has a unity gain mode that accepts full line levels and so I can use it as an extra input when I'm mixing and with both inputs active, I can adjust two inputs there and with the tape return used as well that gives me 3 returns per channel. Only one EQ for the 3, but I do have a lot of samples that don't need any treatment. I've got loads of inputs in tiny real estate here.

I should have added useless feature 'to me', my mistake. I can see your use however.

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Not to say that it simply contains false information...

Take the stereo returns for example, the Toft has 8 stereo returns with level and pan, while your comparision sheet talks about 2 fixed level returns...

The comparison sheet was not compiled by myself but i have been told that all of the specifications for the ATB originate from PMI Audio's website and their ATB PDF.

If you look at the ATB PDF, you will see on the diagram of the output section, that their are only 2, 2 track returns, i believe you are confusing these with the 8 stereo effects returns. Have a look for yourself.
******//www.toftaudio.com/pdf/atb_manual_web.pdf

The comparison sheet looks correct to me, if you properly check it out i think you'll also agree.
******//www.oram.co.uk/trident_toft_comparison.htm

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The comparison sheet was not compiled by myself but i have been told that all of the specifications for the ATB originate from PMI Audio's website and their ATB PDF.

If you look at the ATB PDF, you will see on the diagram of the output section, that their are only 2, 2 track returns, i believe you are confusing these with the 8 stereo effects returns. Have a look for yourself.
******//www.toftaudio.com/pdf/atb_manual_web.pdf

The comparison sheet looks correct to me, if you properly check it out i think you'll also agree.
******//www.oram.co.uk/trident_toft_comparison.htm

Hi

It's just a personal opinion, but I think it's rather a tacky procedure to compare a product's feature with a competitor rather than extolling the virtues of one's own product... which, if it's superior, will sell itself well in any case.

I've not known Neve to list their features against an SSL, for instance, because Neve knew that they made a fine product. You won't find many companies resort to such tactics because it shows that they are bothered by them.

Just my 2c

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

It's just a personal opinion, but I think it's rather a tacky procedure to compare a product's feature with a competitor rather than extolling the virtues of one's own product... which, if it's superior, will sell itself well in any case.

I've not known Neve to list their features against an SSL, for instance, because Neve knew that they made a fine product. You won't find many companies resort to such tactics because it shows that they are bothered by them.

Just my 2c

Hi Geoff,


I fully agree with you its not standard practice but this is a rather exceptional circumstance and not the same as your comparisson between Neve and SSL.

The 8T and the ATB are being compared and have been compared since day one. We all know why this is, forgetting all the madness going on behind the scenes, both these desks are supposedly made using recreated modules which were used in the original Trident Series 80 consoles, people are asking questions like which one sounds better, or which one can do this or that.

Its not surprising that people are comparing them, unfortunately theres alot of misinformation being posted on GS, thats why the comparison sheet was probably put up on the Oram website, to set the record straight.

[Led]

There was one comparison left off -how long it takes the manufacturer to actually get it out selling on the market.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Hi Geoff,


I fully agree with you its not standard practice but this is a rather exceptional circumstance and not the same as your comparisson between Neve and SSL.

The 8T and the ATB are being compared and have been compared since day one. We all know why this is, forgetting all the madness going on behind the scenes, both these desks are supposedly made using recreated modules which were used in the original Trident Series 80 consoles, people are asking questions like which one sounds better, or which one can do this or that.

Its not surprising that people are comparing them, unfortunately theres alot of misinformation being posted on GS, thats why the comparison sheet was probably put up on the Oram website, to set the record straight.

Hi Andrew

Okey Dokey

I guess it's a British, stiff upper lip, sort of thing on my part. I didn't expect it in the UK but, in the USA, anything goes so Hyundai can happily slag off Honda while describing the advantages of their car over the t'other.

[FilmDingo]

Thanks Geoff for daring to have some class and tact. It is much appreciated.

[WidgetNinja]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The 8T and the ATB are being compared and have been compared since day one. We all know why this is, forgetting all the madness going on behind the scenes, both these desks are supposedly made using recreated modules which were used in the original Trident Series 80 consoles, people are asking questions like which one sounds better, or which one can do this or that.

Huh, that's like saying that people were comparing the Mackie mixers to 16 channels of "esoteric preamps" because that's what Mackie said they implemented. I don't recall any chinese condenser manufacturers posting response curves and blow by blow comparisons to Neuman. It's totally tacky.

There's nothing to compare about these boards.
Features: Not the same.
Build: Not the same.
Price: Not the same.

Moreover, the Toft board doesn't have the same preamps as the series 80 any more than the Trident S20 does... yet which is trying to tailcoat on a name? The Toft board has the series 80b EQ.

But, I thought I remembered them talking about a more high-end board at some point to satisfy even the slutz with budgets.

I can see competitive comparisons for things that are analytic, like a car's mpg, accelleration, or a tv's resolution, but people buy mixers for sound, which is subjective. So, why compare your product publicly to another in every way but the single one that matters to the consumer?

[rainsinvelvet]

Originally Posted by androne

No price indication known yet ?
Does it have direct inserts that bypass the mic preamps when you want to mix line inputs ?
It sure looks great.... what's the sound quality like compared with Cranesong stuff a la Spider ? Any hints ?

Cant wait actually... :-)

Odd..

I don't see the anything in the original post where he asks about the Oram console.
Jezz, It never ends.

ERic

[SnakeCained]

Rule number 1:

"Never ever slag off the competition. It makes you look really really small and pathetic"

When I used to sell things some smart arse would always say " oh its not as good as x" and I would say " X is a really good product which I like a lot but I think you can see this is better value" This always disarms them.

Oram and Mr Toft play out this pretend "we really dislike each other" thing as a fantastic marketing idea, not. Personaly I really like and respect one of them and the other could be described as an "audio clown" and a very rude one at that.

Mr Tanner is right maybe it's a British thing, after all we are all cultured and well educated, innit?

[AlphaDingo]

Yeah, Great. Where can I buy one of the ****ing things?

[heyman]

Just one more reason I will not be buying from Oram.. Sorry John, you may build a fine sounding product but at this point I am so turned off by guys pimping your gear that I dont even want to give it an honest listen..

So, back to what this thread is about.. The Toft board..

Thanks for chimming in Geoff..

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by androne

No price indication known yet ?
Does it have direct inserts that bypass the mic preamps when you want to mix line inputs ?
It sure looks great.... what's the sound quality like compared with Cranesong stuff a la Spider ? Any hints ?

Cant wait actually... :-)

The poster who started off the Thread wanted to know if the ATB was capable of mixing mic and line inputs on each channel, this question was answered truthfully and a similar product was mentioned that could mix both, along with an honest specifactions comparison for both products. As far as im aware this is constructive information, and the kind of info you'd expect to find out if you asked such a question.

The next thing you know, theres a 'supposedly knowledeable' moderator saying that the above feature is useless, and that the spec sheet contains false information. Both points are incorrect on his behalf and i can only assume from his posts that he is not independant and favours the ATB for whatever reason, i dont believe for a momment that he is really that ignorant.

Then now, theres a load of very hot headed slutz, trying to say that either myself or indeed John Oram are trying to put down the ATB, in order to market the 8T. (ie: Negative publicity)

No negative comments have ever been posted with regards to the ATB on this thread, only a spec sheet comparing them accurately has been posted.

As far as im concerened all of you who have chimed in to say that this is negative publicity and have tried to slagg off the 8T are all Hippocrates as you are guilty of tyring to spread negative publicity/ information yourselves. Why would you do this i wonder? Perhapps some of you are also not independant and have agenda's.

A spec sheet is not negative publicity, its constructive information. If you are unhappy with the specs of the ATB compared with the 8T, then you need to take that up with Malcom Toft. I only posted in this thread to answer someones question that the moderator failed to do so.

I think that people should only post in threads if they have constructive information. Slagging someone off for the sake of, is very imature and not what i would expect from professional users of this forum.

[TyRip]

If by professional users of the forum, you mean those out for professional gain, speak for yourself.

I just know that every time your logo pops up I can expect you suggesting a product you sell over something else, sometimes when it isn't even mentioned or related.

[Alex Wyler]

Hey Andrew,

GFY!

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The poster who started off the Thread wanted to know if the ATB was capable of mixing mic and line inputs on each channel, this question was answered truthfully and a similar product was mentioned that could mix both, along with an honest specifactions comparison for both products. As far as im aware this is constructive information, and the kind of info you'd expect to find out if you asked such a question.

The thread starter wanted to know if the pre-amp circuit is out of the signal path when he enters the ATB console via line in. At least that's how I understood it

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The next thing you know, theres a 'supposedly knowledeable' moderator saying that the above feature is useless, and that the spec sheet contains false information. Both points are incorrect on his behalf and i can only assume from his posts that he is not independant and favours the ATB for whatever reason, i dont believe for a momment that he is really that ignorant.

I've replied that I indeed should have been more clear by adding 'useless "to me", and even agreed with Jack ross that I could understand his possible use of it. It's just not something I'd do myself.
The spec sheet maybe isn't really wrong, but it's defenately misleading. I was mislead by it anyway in the stereo return comparision. I can see you mean the 2track type of inputs only now. But why is that comparision leaving out the features where the ATB is better then the 8T? Features such as the 8 stereo returns? Features like the optional convertor board?

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Then now, theres a load of very hot headed slutz, trying to say that either myself or indeed John Oram are trying to put down the ATB, in order to market the 8T. (ie: Negative publicity)

No negative comments have ever been posted with regards to the ATB on this thread, only a spec sheet comparing them accurately has been posted.

As far as im concerened all of you who have chimed in to say that this is negative publicity and have tried to slagg off the 8T are all Hippocrates as you are guilty of tyring to spread negative publicity/ information yourselves. Why would you do this i wonder? Perhapps some of you are also not independant and have agenda's.

You didn't make negative comments maybe, but referring to a misleading comparision sheet and claiming it's 100% accurate isn't really fair. The sheet defenately is incomplete and set up as a marketing tool to show why the 8T 'is better' then the ATB.

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

A spec sheet is not negative publicity, its constructive information. If you are unhappy with the specs of the ATB compared with the 8T, then you need to take that up with Malcom Toft. I only posted in this thread to answer someones question that the moderator failed to do so.

I think that people should only post in threads if they have constructive information. Slagging someone off for the sake of, is very imature and not what i would expect from professional users of this forum.

An incomplete spec sheet for promotional purposes is a kind of negative publicity appereantly, as you can see how it comes over to most Gearslutz users.

About me failing to answer the originals poster's question: he's asking about the Toft ATB (not about the Oram 8T), so I show him the huge thread which contains most answers.
Your answer isn't an answer to his question. He wanted to know if the line input passes through the mic preamp circuit on the ATB console, he didn't ask if the mic and line input on the 8T get mixed or not.

[crypticglobe]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi Andrew

Okey Dokey

I guess it's a British, stiff upper lip, sort of thing on my part. I didn't expect it in the UK but, in the USA, anything goes so Hyundai can happily slag off Honda while describing the advantages of their car over the t'other.

It's not just a British thing. I grew up in Texas and now live in Tennessee. I would never talk down a competitor, and I HATE it when companies do that. I usually won't even buy from people that do that. I actually PHYSICALLY threw a health insurance sales person out of my house once because he wouldn't tell me anything about the plan he was selling... only why I shouldn't buy the plan from the others, and how bad they sucked.

No normally... I am not a proponet of physically forcing someone to leave either... but the guy was freaking out my wife and kids and he wouldn NOT leave. I asked him 7 times.

Anyway...in my book it is ALWAYS bad marketing to even mention the competitor, much less talk down about them.

[tomdarude]

f*ck it nevermind....I want a 32ch. Tonelux anyway!














couldn´t resist...

[magnuspater]

i'm new to the whole toft/trident feud and don't know too much about it. i was interested in both consoles, but the comparison list leaned my preference towards the toft console. toft just seems to be more honorable to me after reading the various threads.

[Andrew Kinsey]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

The thread starter wanted to know if the pre-amp circuit is out of the signal path when he enters the ATB console via line in. At least that's how I understood it



I've replied that I indeed should have been more clear by adding 'useless "to me", and even agreed with Jack ross that I could understand his possible use of it. It's just not something I'd do myself.
The spec sheet maybe isn't really wrong, but it's defenately misleading. I was mislead by it anyway in the stereo return comparision. I can see you mean the 2track type of inputs only now. But why is that comparision leaving out the features where the ATB is better then the 8T? Features such as the 8 stereo returns? Features like the optional convertor board?



You didn't make negative comments maybe, but referring to a misleading comparision sheet and claiming it's 100% accurate isn't really fair. The sheet defenately is incomplete and set up as a marketing tool to show why the 8T 'is better' then the ATB.



An incomplete spec sheet for promotional purposes is a kind of negative publicity appereantly, as you can see how it comes over to most Gearslutz users.

About me failing to answer the originals poster's question: he's asking about the Toft ATB (not about the Oram 8T), so I show him the huge thread which contains most answers.
Your answer isn't an answer to his question. He wanted to know if the line input passes through the mic preamp circuit on the ATB console, he didn't ask if the mic and line input on the 8T get mixed or not.

You say that the comparison sheet is incomplete because it doesn't mention the Firewire Option for the ATB and the Stereo Returns. As far as im aware the Firewire Option for the ATB doesn't even exist, not one board has ever been made.

Also i would like to point out that the aim of the comparison sheet was not to slate the ATB, it was to clear up any misconceptions and allow people to see that these mixers, although are being marketed as Trident Series 80 reissues, are infact different and have differnt features.

Also i think you have misunderstood the original posters question, either that or your trying to twist his words, as he never said anything about the line input passing through the mic preamp, he was asking if he could mix line and mic signal together on the same channel. Why would you want the line input going through the mic preamp stage? it doesnt make sense.

I now understand why you come across in such a bias way, i didnt understand it before, but have recently learned that you are a dealer for Toft. At least ive been honest enough to be upfront with people about who i am, not only that, not once have i ever said a bad word about the ATB on this thread.

The same cannot be said for yourself as you have repeatedly tried to put the 8T down, falsely claiming that certain features are useless and then imediately claiming the spec sheet contained false info without properly reading it and checking with the specs of the ATB.

Maybe its about time you started to tell people that your a Toft dealer before you recommend or hype their products and slate other products that compete. You are deceiving people by doing this.

[borau]

Originally Posted by magnuspater

i'm new to the whole toft/trident feud and don't know too much about it. i was interested in both consoles, but the comparison list leaned my preference towards the toft console. toft just seems to be more honorable to me after reading the various threads.

It´s easy, piecy(after following these threads for many years)

Toft=Good guys
"Trident"/Oram= Bad guys, with an almost religious fanatism like following(Scientology?). As examplified by Andrew on this thread.

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by borau

It´s easy, piecy(after following these threads for many years)

Toft=Good guys
"Trident"/Oram= Bad guys, with an almost religious fanatism like following(Scientology?). As examplified by Andrew on this thread.

It is very sad then that the "good guys" havent produced a decent piece of gear yet, unlike the less vocal (less bullshit) "bad guys" who seem to keep making quite good gear.

Inspite of all the Toft fanatics (who haven't yet even heard his desk yet)

Hmmmm

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

You say that the comparison sheet is incomplete because it doesn't mention the Firewire Option for the ATB and the Stereo Returns. As far as im aware the Firewire Option for the ATB doesn't even exist, not one board has ever been made.

Since no actual ATB has shipped when the Oram ppl set up that comparision sheet, they based it on feature specs which were online from Toft, just left out what was inconvenient to them. The Firewire Option is one of those feature specs, and while it is inddeed not shipping yet, this option is very real.

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Also i would like to point out that the aim of the comparison sheet was not to slate the ATB, it was to clear up any misconceptions and allow people to see that these mixers, although are being marketed as Trident Series 80 reissues, are infact different and have differnt features.

The aim of the comparision sheet is of course to show that the 8T is a 'better' console then the ATB. I don't think Alan or Malcolm ever claimed it was an exact 80B. The EQ is straight from the 80B yes, but they always clearly said the pre-amp is a different design.

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Also i think you have misunderstood the original posters question, either that or your trying to twist his words, as he never said anything about the line input passing through the mic preamp, he was asking if he could mix line and mic signal together on the same channel. Why would you want the line input going through the mic preamp stage? it doesnt make sense.

Maybe i did misunderstood it, I welcome any other native english speaker to clarify.
Of course you generally wouldn't want the line input going thru the mic pre-amp stage, but I know of gear (Digi MBox) for example, where you've to be carefull not to do so.

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

I now understand why you come across in such a bias way, i didnt understand it before, but have recently learned that you are a dealer for Toft. At least ive been honest enough to be upfront with people about who i am, not only that, not once have i ever said a bad word about the ATB on this thread.

The same cannot be said for yourself as you have repeatedly tried to put the 8T down, falsely claiming that certain features are useless and then imediately claiming the spec sheet contained false info without properly reading it and checking with the specs of the ATB.

Maybe its about time you started to tell people that your a Toft dealer before you recommend or hype their products and slate other products that compete. You are deceiving people by doing this.

I wonder where or from who you got the idea I'm a Toft dealer. I can clearly say I'm not.
******//www.jukeboxltd.com/ is the distributor for Belgium, give them a call if you like.

[studjo]

note to self: don't buy neither Toft nor Orban gear!!!!



Jo