Genelec 1031A - What is wrong with them?

[Purusha]

I just hapend to own a pair for few years now and I still don't trust them so much. I spoke with one friend who told me that they have a problem arround 1Khz. Does anyone have some detailed graph or something about their real EQ curve, so I can use it on the master bus as temporary EQ when mixing. Maybe this would help me to get them more flat sounding.

Anyone?

Purusha

[Igotsoul4u]

i always roll of the treble at -2db tilt.

[SiliconAudioLab]

There's nothing wrong with them. Not biggest woofer in the hood but, still, it's all good.

[84K]

1031As.... some of my favorite speakers that I do not use for working. What do I mean by that? Genelecs are sooooo soft on the ears, that I love them. What I do is, I get the sounds with the Adams or Dyna BM-15As, then when I am just listening back while recording performances, I switch to the Genelecs. Long dog days of drums are much less trying on the ears and brain when I listen through Genelecs for the majority.

[Purusha]

I have big problems with my Genelecs 1031A in my new place. There is no bottom coming out of them. I have studio in the upper room of the house so my ceiling is not flat like in normal rooms:

....... ___7m___
.... /................\
.... l___________l ---> speakers are shoting this way ---->

The room is about 4 x 7 meters.


Ceiling is also not made from concrete, but from special plaster panels. I have a lot of thick rock wool absorbers and diffusers all around the place. In my opinion the ceiling somehow absorbs all the bass. Usually one has problems with too much bass but not in this case. Really weird.

I am thinking of getting a subwoofer. Any suggestions what would go with 1031A. I need something just to give me some bottom. I don't need a blasting woofer which cost a lot also. Any good woofers below 500$?

Any suggestions what to do or what to buy to improve the situation?

Purusha

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Purusha

I have big problems with my Genelecs 1031A in my new place. There is no bottom coming out of them.

1031As are just BAD speakers. too much 10k, huge hole at 2k, 60-100Hz always sounds the same... almost ruined my life.

plaster is very slappy and reflective...

dont listen to me if you normally like the sound of 1031s.. i'm just venting. i've made better mixes on a mono horrortone.

[Igotsoul4u]

You probably have some sort of phase cancellation going on. I would work on fixing the room via acoustic panels etc... before you go and buy new speakers.

Originally Posted by Purusha

I have big problems with my Genelecs 1031A in my new place. There is no bottom coming out of them. I have studio in the upper room of the house so my ceiling is not flat like in normal rooms:

....... ___7m___
.... /...................\
.... l__________l ---> speakers are shoting this way ---->

The room is about 4 x 7 meters.


Ceiling is also not made from concrete, but from special plaster panels. I have a lot of thick rock wool absorbers and diffusers all around the place. In my opinion the ceiling somehow absorbs all the bass. Usually one has problems with too much bass but not in this case. Really weird.

I am thinking of getting a subwoofer. Any suggestions what would go with 1031A. I need something just to give me some bottom. I don't need a blasting woofer which cost a lot also. Any good woofers below 500$?

Any suggestions what to do or what to buy to improve the situation?

Purusha

[SoZo]

If your room has more then 2 layers of a hard material between floors you are loosing bass and keeping highs. The formula is: hard surface - air gap - hard surface. Don’t know if this is your problem but I just wanted to educate you before you get into a sub or spending more unnecessary money.

[RoundBadge]

I'm no acoustics expert but,
It sounds like some weird sonic voodoo goin on in the room..
the speakers are probably fine
just for a test,try placing the speakers in a bunch of different areas of the room to see if things change for the better or worse.sounds like some phase stuff
I sold my gennies for some Adams..missing mid's aside.. they're not THAT bad..

[Jules]

I had some 1031's for about 6 or 7 years.. untill I bought some ADAMS...

HANG ON! I Still HAVE my 1031's, there are in the studios B room..

[drundall]

Originally Posted by 84K

1031As.... some of my favorite speakers that I do not use for working. What do I mean by that? Genelecs are sooooo soft on the ears, that I love them. What I do is, I get the sounds with the Adams or Dyna BM-15As, then when I am just listening back while recording performances, I switch to the Genelecs. Long dog days of drums are much less trying on the ears and brain when I listen through Genelecs for the majority.

I pretty much do the same thing. No horrortones here though.
I miss the ATR 102 sucky speaker but I bought some $6 computer speakers that do the trick.

[Purusha]

Originally Posted by SoZo

If your room has more then 2 layers of a hard material between floors you are loosing bass and keeping highs. The formula is: hard surface - air gap - hard surface. Don’t know if this is your problem but I just wanted to educate you before you get into a sub or spending more unnecessary money.

Can you be more specific, I didn't understand this one. My floor is normal as I understand, concrete and wood on top. Only the ceiling is not concrete because I have a roof of the house for the ceiling. Just the plaster pannels and more rock wooll on the other side...

This is really frustrating me. stike

Purusha

[Purusha]

Just for fun I turned up my Genius computer subwoofer for 50$ along with 1031A and I liked already, but I don't think I can trust such a cheap woofer for some real work. And than when I turn down the woofer it's like somebody seriously reduced the bass under 150dB. It sucks without the woofer. That is all I know for now. Don't know which way to go


Purusha

[perun]

I don't think your problem is with room/acoustics. It's not possible not to hear lows when you stand close to monitors. There are only two way possibility: either they're working OK or not. I think you should call your technician and check amplifiers and drivers. But, to be honest, if something died in there, it's not possible it died on both speakers the same time. Call a professional to solve it!

Regards to Slovenia from Belgrade!!!!!

[Purusha]

Originally Posted by perun

I don't think your problem is with room/acoustics. It's not possible not to hear lows when you stand close to monitors. There are only two way possibility: either they're working OK or not. I think you should call your technician and check amplifiers and drivers. But, to be honest, if something died in there, it's not possible it died on both speakers the same time. Call a professional to solve it!

Regards to Slovenia from Belgrade!!!!!

Thanks,

This came to my mind also, but it's not possible that something went wrong in both speakers at the same time. I guess I'll have to get some other speakers to test the room and take my speakers to some other room to find out where the problem is.

Regards to Belgrade

Purusha

[Trademarkh]

The room can definitely be a problem.
Of course first make sure that they work properly.
As someone suggested try different positions in the room as this will make them interact differently with the room modes.
If the front wall is hard and heavy (multi layered plasterboard or bricks etc.) You can try mooving them back closer to the wall as this will acoustically augment the bass energy.
Stay away from corners.
At 7 meters the room is big enough for bass to develop properly and be heard but phase cancellation is harder to control without proper design.

[SiliconAudioLab]

You have three potential problems (or some combination of the three):

1. Your room needs tuning (almost everybody's does).

2. You NEED a sub - fact is the 1031's don't go down that far (even though you wish they did). A sub is good thing (used lightly).

3. Your cones have started to separate from the outer rubber O rings. This happened to me. It really freaked me out but I was able to Super Glue the sections of the seems that worked their way apart (then I pawned that pair to the CG studio - shhhhhhh - )

Here's how you can tell: push your finger gently around the outer edge of the cone. Go around and see if any seems have worked loose.

Also when you tap hard on the mid area of the cone (not on the bullseye center node but in the meat area of the cone) - it should give a nice bassy thwooooomp

[Purusha]

1.) I agree, I know my room is not hi-end treated but I think it's treated sufficiently to reduce at least the mid and high range problems...

2.) It looks to me that I really need one

3.) I checked this but it seams OK. Should I take the speakers out to check from inside the cones? The taping also gives a nice bassy thwooooomp.

I will upload today some pictures of my place. This will give you some extra informations of where might be the problem.

Thank you so far

Purusha

[SiliconAudioLab]

No need to take the speakers out. You be able to spot the faulty seems (or gaps) from the front.

Yeah - upload some pics maybe we can spot the room problem visually.

[Purusha]

I hope this will help in some way...

[IMG]******//gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php3?attachmentid=11994[/IMG]



Purusha

[SiliconAudioLab]

VERY nice setup.

Just a guess with NO math (because I'm not there and don't have the exact dimensions) but you may have inadvertently created a node of cancellation due to the thickness of those baffles.

Being thick is fine, but I'm guessing the space in between them (especially the ones at the top) is causing nodes.

Take the ones on the top down and see what happens.

The size & shape of the room (without the baffles) looks pretty decent to start with but then you add the baffles (panels) and THEN you added the speaker columns so you might have a couple of dimensions PERHAPS you didn't need to create.

I'm a crazy guy and I have tuned my room - made baffles then ripped them down - then part acoustic foam and semi reflective panels - ripped THEM down and now am in the process of doing all over AGAIN so don't fret if you have to tweak.

So, I would take a few of those panels and HALF them in size so you can adjust them more.

Two things regarding that - you may just need to make a few more to fill in the spots where there are no panels making them (and the new wall they would all create) somewhat flush.

BTW are those scoops on the top of speaker columns?

[Rick Sutton]

The first thing I'd do is get the 1031's out of those cabinets. Try them vertically about 6 feet apart sitting on something solid.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Good advise too.

The more I'm looking at it the more I think you should either push those columns back or soffet mount those speakers into the wall. Your room looks right and you should be able to do that.

Here's the thing: I know you must take pride in those columns (as you should they are VERY cool) but they might serve you better if they were pushed into the walls (construction time) to whatever level you actually CAN integrate them in.

AND I'll bet the scoops at the top are creating a node of cancellation and not letting your room do the work.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Here ya go (little Photoshop hack - sorry):

[Purusha]

Ooooh no! : ) I just made these special stacks a few days ago just because I was not getting enough bass (this was a practical suggestion from a good friend who is in this business much longer than me) Before I had my speakers on the stands in the same place or maybe just a litle more back, but still not enough bass. The bass was louder only in the middle of the room, but not anymore since I build this stacks. The problem is that I am renting this house and I can't realy do what I want. I can't mount them into the wall for example. it must be some other solution.

The scoopes are there so that the sound waves from speakers don't bounce directly from the ceiling back to me. They are made from 4mm wood pannels perforated with 6mm holes. Also suggestion from a friend.

Purusha

[Rick Sutton]

well it's beginning to look like you might have a serious room geometry problem. (By the way, you don't have the bass rollloff switches engaged on the back of the genelecs do you? I assume that this would have been the first thing that has been experimented with.)
I've seen some rooms where one dimension is way too long for the other and the bass has very deep nodes. Like no bass at the board and too much 3 feet back from there etc. The only solution that I have seen work (although there are others. I have only had successful results with this one) is to turn the back wall into a massive bass trap. I don't mean some corner traps. I mean the entire back wall is a bass trap. this can be done with minimal attachment to the existing structure by building a wall that is floated and is 2-3 feet in front of existing wall. I cover the new wall with celotex wall board in approx 2 foot wide strips leaving a 2-3 inch space between strips which turns the cavity into a resonator. Stuff the cavity with rockwool or old mattresses...anything absorbant. The idea is to keep the bass from bouncing off the back wall and then recombining with the direct sound from the speakers which causes all the severe dips and peaks in the bass response.

[Purusha]

tutt I know that the back wall should be like a big bass trap but as I mentioned I will be in this house maybe for a few years so I don't want to waste money on some big changes. I can put some more rock wool absorbers in the back of the room, no problem, but something more expencive...

I will test some things this week. Probably the Dynaudio BM6 in my room, different positions of Genelecs in the room, combinations with small Dynaudio subwoofer... my Genelecs in music shop side by side with other monitors.

I am thinkig at the moment, OK I am losing some bass here, but otherwise the sound is tight and much better with this stacks then before, so why not just add a nice small woofer and that is it? If the room demands more bass than why not have more bass. What matters at the end is anyway that my mixes translate well to other speakers, isn't it? Since I moved to this place, all my mixes started to sound with too much bass. I see the solution with the subwoofer as the less expensive way to solve the problem. Also my NS10 need some extra bass on the long run.

What do you say? thumbsup tutt

Purusha

[mmyohane]

The first thing I'd do is get the 1031's out of those cabinets. Try them vertically about 6 feet apart sitting on something solid.

I think this would improve things very much. The bass also goes to back of the speaker and when summed to the direct bass from the reflex holes and bass woofer things might get strange. No bass etc.

Do you know about frequency cancellation and it's relation to speaker distance from the back wall?

Here's a link: ******//www.genelec.com/support/soffit.php

Might be useful info

[Purusha]

Originally Posted by mmyohane

I think this would improve things very much. The bass also goes to back of the speaker and when summed to the direct bass from the reflex holes and bass woofer things might get strange. No bass etc.

Do you know about frequency cancellation and it's relation to speaker distance from the back wall?

Here's a link: ******//www.genelec.com/support/soffit.php

Might be useful info

Hmm, this is why the stacks were build at the first place. To make some flat surface arround the monitors as much as possible. But it must be that the bass is still coming back from the wall behind and canceling the bass wave coming directly from the monitors. I will put two semi bass diffusor/absorbers behind the stacks also, just did not have the time to finish them yet. Maybe this will help to get the bass on line again.



Purusha

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Purusha

tutt I know that the back wall should be like a big bass trap but as I mentioned I will be in this house maybe for a few years so I don't want to waste money on some big changes. I can put some more rock wool absorbers in the back of the room, no problem, but something more expencive...


Purusha

My experience has been that small traps won't solve room geometry bass problems.
Actually, a full wall bass trap can be built quite inexpensively. 2"x2" studs on 24" centers using strips of whatever 1/2" buliding material that can be found cheap or even used. Stuff with insulation ( I stuffed one with mattress stuffing that a mattress store gave to me free). If it doesn't work, tear it out. If it does work, buy some nice fabric and cover it so it looks good. Not expensive but very effective.
My control room shares some of the shape as your room and this kind of trap solved my problems. ( I've since torn it out to put in a window and rear entrance and I had to learn the room all over again and install a sub to compensate. Now when I mix I have to stand up occassionally to check the bass. standing waves are a bitch. Someday I'm going to put as much of that trap back in as my rear wall allows. By the way, I'm also using genelec 1031's on stands and found that inches made a big difference when placing them.)