New studio plan. What you think.

[davemc]

Hi Guys,

Just finalizing my studio plan, and thought I would post it and see what you guys like or not like.
New Indent Plan
I will be gutting the existing studio and rebuilding from scratch.. Yes I know how much gear this will cost.
I am looking at opening the studio up to a few producers/engineers for tracking and some mixing.
I will probably will split the guitar amp room into two small amp closets.

A friend said maybe just leave the whole place open with a larger room. Make a smaller amp/vocal room where the drum room. To make 3 iso rooms and a large room.

For reference the front of the building/entrance is a rear lane(where the rec area is), the door from the amp room goes to a small courtyard…

Also gearwise I want to know in general if you used the place what gear would you like/expect added to the below. Thinking of getting a set of MD421's…
What else. Thinking mainly tracking at the moment. Thanks again

Monitors: Quested VS2108, Rogers and Boombox.
Daw: PT HD3, 192i/o (extra 8 in), 96 i/o
Control surface: Control24
Outboard: Calrec Dual pre/EQ, API 3124, ISA430, Buzz Audio Dual, Drawmer 1969, Fatso, Distressor(coming)
Mics:
LD: U99, Classic 2
Ribbons: Royer SF12, M160 (2)
SD: KM85, AT 3527(omnis)
Dyn: Sm57 (4), sm58 (2), m88, D112, AT25, AT23e, sen 603

[matucha]

no diffusors? allmost square controll room? impractical place for WC?

I'm no acoustical man, I'm just asking because I read something and confront it with the "reality".

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by matucha
no diffusors? allmost square controll room? impractical place for WC?
.

I agree that the WC may be inconvenient (I've seen enthusiastic use of a WC set in the control room stop a session until everything airs out...), but you have to put it somewhere. And I'm also not quite as converned about the apparent squareness of the Control room, as long as the ceiling height is not the same dimensions as the length or width, you ought to be able to make it work. The side wall treatments that you outline will definitely stop the flutter echo that you might otherwise experience. I personally prefer a large tracking room even for vocal sessions, but different folks have different methods.

It looks to me like the main lack is storage space; where are cases,stands, and extra chairs stored? Where are unused mics stored and completed projects stored? For that matter, where are cleaning supplies, brooms and the vacuum cleaner stored? Youdon't want to leace them stacked in corners...

[Steve Smith]

Hey, I am assuming you alrady know about this place, but be sure to check in at

Recording Studio Design Forum

[davemc]

Thanks for your thought...
The WC worries me as well, it will cost a lot to move it as it is there already.. Thought of moving rec area to back. Although then you open the front door into the control room or tracking room. I do not know which would be worse.

Dave, Roof is just over 3 meters high where I have put the false ceiling, probably almost a metre to the actual roof.
Cleaning products can still go in WC, thats where they are now..
I will set some cupboards up in recording area for mics, or just a case in the control room. gear wise well the cases and such can go in the rec area, I am selling of my drum kit as it takes up space when someone uses thiers.

Plan is done by a local acoustic guy, I have heard a control room done very similar although a little smaller and it sounded really good. Wiggy knows the place, I do think the drum room is a little square though. There is also hanging diffusing on the roof not on the plan.

[davemc]

Originally posted by Steve Smith
Hey, I am assuming you alrady know about this place, but be sure to check in at

Recording Studio Design Forum

Thanks Steve, I know of the place. Pretty sure John and the guy doing my place are mates.
I will see what responses I get here and then revise again..
Then post around the second time(do not want to spam everyone he he).. Want to do it right this time as I did the old plan and building before myself.. Heres a link to the rough as it is now..

Old setup rough

[Jules]

I have a WC that opens into the Control room.

I spec'es a powerfull extractor fan driven by the light switch...

I't stays on for 5 mins after the light is swiched off..

overall it's 'safe'

[Robotnik]

The washroom is located through the control room. What if I really had to go and you were in the middle of tracking? If I did my business on the floor, would somebody be available to clean it up? dfegad

[littledog]

My bathroom (as we Americans say) opens up into the drum room. It's open to debate as to which room's atmosphere is polluting the other...

[jindrich]

(EDIT: hope the img is fixed. I didnt have any problems to display it)

From the architectural point of view, this is what IMHO the Studio should be like. You must provide a clear circulation path, grouping rooms in terms of their functionality and priority of use.
I'm sure Matucha agrees with me

The most drastic change in my drawing is the reallocation of the bathroom, which may not be possible at all (wc pipes can't be moved that easily, if any). On the other hand, I reduced the number of recording rooms to just 3, (you don't need that many), and it's better to have a bigger and much more versatile space.

Anyway, without knowing more about those pipes and location of windows/master walls/columns, this is all I can help you.

[davemc]

Jindrich Sorry the pic did not come up. Its free hold apart from the back and front doors no windows.

Moving the WC is just to expensive...

I thought of flipping the plan as stated before although then you would walk into the tracking room straight from outside.
I could always put the drum room in the WC and give a new meaning to drummers throne.

Functionality is more what I am thinking, personally I like seperate rooms as it allows to record a band with virtually no spillage.
Although for larger drum sounds maybe one large room and a couple of amp rooms might be better.
I have no rec area at the moment and find it hard to get rid of band members when I need to.. That was why the rec area is there, I could always double the tracking size and get rid of the rec area. The live area could then double as a rec area.
Again floating ideas before I settle on a plan and get it done..

Anyone have any gear sugestions.
Thinking of maybe a pultec eq to add.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
... I personally prefer a large tracking room even for vocal sessions..

I do too but the most common mistake I see people make is building control rooms that are too small. When there isn't room for both, my opinion is that an optimum sized control room always has to take precedence even if it means having no seperate studio at all and just a machine closet to isolate any unacceptable noise from gear.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I do too but the most common mistake I see people make is building control rooms that are too small.

Yep - I hate it when I'm working in someone elses studio and there isn't room in the control room even for the whole rhythm section, much less the client and producer...

By the way, Bob - I put a couch in the control room a week or so back; in the next week or so, I'll be moving the keyboards and synth racks (rack will go next to the preamp racks, the controller into the room with the Wurly) and there should be enough extra room for a coffee table. Or a producers desk.

[faeflora]

Ya know, if I were you, I would just install a powerful sucking fan into the WC/bathroom, add weatherstripping to the door, and have a sealing flange on the bottom. And I'd buy a heavy door.

That wouldn't cost more than $200 extra and you'd seal smells, sounds, and even flushing noises.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
... I put a couch in the control room a week or so back
.

That's cool.

You still need some fake big mains above the console for it to really feel "right." If anybody asks to hear them you can always say "these punks blew 'em up last night." What was that company that made those fake Marshall stacks that everybody used to stick in the back line to hide the Marshall 50 with?

Never let yourself forget that we're all in SHOW business...

:-)

[alphajerk]

personally, i would flip the plan... two words [LOAD IN], much easier to dump it in from the front door than dragging equipment through that maze.

also, the drum room is a tad tight for my tastes. i would nix all the iso rooms and make one big room with a couple closets for amps if isolation is desperate... better to have all the players in the same room even if their amps arent in there with them IMO.

oh, and the doors between the CR and vox booth looked ****ed. there isnt enough room to get through the orientation they are now, i would certainly make them open the other way.

[joeq]

unless there is a hallway not shown, it looks to me like the vocal booth is a thoroughfare. You have to go thru two sets of glass doors to bring a bass amp or a kick drum into the live room, it looks like.

I'm getting grumpy just thinking about it.

Put me down as another one who would personally prefer one large space to many small ones. Gobos can be fun. Not all bleed is bad.

[jindrich]

davemc,

I've upgraded my drawing (on the first page of this topic). If you can't see it (my fault, i dont know how to make it appear on this forum ) , email me and i'll send it to you.

btw, there's one thing i still don't get. The main entrance is on the left or on the right?

Another suggestion: Is that front wall on your current control room dark blue? I must advice you to paint the whole studio in VERY LIGHT colors, whites and pastel greens/oranges etc. Make a pattern color to identify places if you wish (reception, control room, studio). But anything you do, keep it very white, and play with electric lights to create ambiences.
This will take strain out of your sessions, and you won't get tired of hard dark colors.
A purple wall may be great the first week, but in a month you'll hate it. If you want *personality* on some wall, just place a heavy abstract picture or a LSD Beatles poster. You can remove them anytime you want.

And BTW, the aspect of the studio is, to me, MORE important than it's gear. When you enter to a modern and well designed place, with comfortable and ample rooms, with nice furniture/lamps/etc, you get that "quality" impression, and figure it out that the people out there really KNOW what they're doing.
That's a special thing to consider if you plan to have freelance engineers/outside projects on your studio.

[davemc]

Hi jindrich. The gif still will not come up(I get a DNS problem) I have tried to click straight on it.
The entrance is oposite end from WC which is the problem. Taking advice into hand I stole space from the rec area and gave it to the live and control rooms, and had another go myself tonight.

Maybe could be cheaper as I kept the current 2 ISO booths(although changed doors) and storage area at the front and most of the wall is already there from the drum room to use as control room wall.
Current
So I chopped up the plan and moved it around.
Chopped up layout
Then I went back to my orginal plan and did it with just lines.
New Plan line draw

Thanks guys for the advice what do you think of it now.

[crispy]

I would go further than Alphajerk on the drum room and state categorically that it is too small. If the kit on the plan is to scale, there will be little 'elbow' room to the rear of the kit and not enough space for mic stands or a bigger kit than the one shown. Some of the poky pubs I play in have a bigger area than that. I'll be honest and say if someone called me into a session (playing) and tried to put me in there I'd walk straight out.

Just have one big room, it will sound better and everyone will feel better.

Also, I find the 'dogleg' control room entrance a little 'interesting'. Why not just square it off, thereby creating true room symmetry and you have a little sound-lock out to reception too.

[davemc]

jindrich email me at Studio the plan as It is not coming through.

I agree the drum room is getting to small...
I was trying to keep the iso booths now I thinking loosing all but two will be fine..
The 'dogleg' door way acts like another type of bass trap I am told. Do not ask me I am no acoustian. We have been bouncing ideas back and fowards for the last month or so, I keep scrapping and redoing... That is why I am asking the question what if??
So as I said all comments are great keep them coming. I just cannot afford to move the WC(it has to be somewhere) and the door at the oposite end is the entrance..

Thanks again guys Dave

[jindrich]

davemc,
i've sent you the gif by email.

I've changed the posted gif to another domain. Maybe this time will work. Anyhow, this have helped me to realize we're having DNS problems with some of our domains. I'll check what's going on.

I'll try to post it here again:



As you say you can't move the Wc room and now that i now where the entrance is, i'll draw another plan for you.

I always wanted to work as a studio designer

[davemc]

Thanks for the plan...
I am thinking more the open plan and a smaller rec area. Well the door next to the WC goes outside anyway.

More suggestions please bring them on. I want to finalise a plan so I can final the guy who is doing it..
So what does everyone think of the new rough plans..

[matucha]

splaying walls this way is smart

[crispy]

Dave, I can't get your new drawings up. I get 'page not found'messages on all of them.

[davemc]

Ok this is how the image thing works...
Current in scale but bad line drawing

New in scale and yes will angle the walls in so not square.
Just getting rooms right. Smaller rec area and keep the current iso rooms although maybe move doors.

And the comp I did of the orginal plan.. This looks messy...


Hope this works..Yes the drawing are not nice...
Just does this look better to people...

[crispy]

Got 'em now.

That's much better.

[jindrich]

Ok, let's see,

I've done a detailed study of your existing floor plan, available dimensions, necessities for your new revamped studio and possible existing shortcomings.
The first and biggest problem is, obviously, the location of the bathroom, just on the opposite side of the Main entrance, wich doesn't allow the creation of a reception room (with it's own WC -just where it should be) right by that entrance. So by keeping the bathroom where it is, this is what after some sketching I visualized:



I listed your necessities, and what should be done to let room for everything, while keeping the place OPEN (my first concern), practical and comfortable at the same time. This is what i thought you needed:

-Keep bathroom where it is, but out of the way of the recording places
-allow to open the Street Entrance door without disturbing a recording session going on in either iso rooms
-create a very needed resting room (which could be used as another rec room) with direct WC access, as well as granting easy access to the courtyard (thus making the courtyard useful), so the final resting room gets bigger
-allow SUNLIGHT to bathe ALL ROOMS (i assume the courtyard is sky open)
-keep 3 studio zones: Live, vocal and drums
-reserve a place for storing things/machine room


My proposal requires a drastic change in every existing wall. It's not going to be cheap, but in my not so humble opinion , you can turn the existing Studio into a really nice and high standard place (especially if you invest in good wood, fabrics, doors, painting etc).

Hope this helps,
Jindrich, the New Studio Designer

[davemc]

Hi,

That is very similar to the orginal plan from the acoustic guy

Problems I had with it apart from the littel amp rooms where to small. Is that the band would have to look through the control room for eye contact. I already have a control room that is side on, and I find this eye line annoying even after a year.


I updated the new plan with pretty colors and some more angles.

Thanks again everyone..
If I leave the big room open where would the best place for the drums be? I though middle of the wall on left or right?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by davemc

If I leave the big room open where would the best place for the drums be?

It really depends.

I'm a fan of drums in corners provided there is enough insulation that the drummer doesn't hear too much mud and yet not so much trapping that nothing comes back into the drummer's ears.

To me the single most important part of any room treatment is having a flat reflected frequency response. I've always found that what people hear acoustically in the room makes a huge difference in how they play or sing even if they're using cans. Too dead a space makes people play too loud and with strange dynamics rather than the natural dynamics and punch that will really make a mix gel. Players will compensate for an unnatural sounding room and you end up fighting that compensation in the mix.

I also think the use of iso booths has a negative impact on performing. We built the first ones I know of at Motown and we ended up usually leaving the doors open because we needed the floor space for the musicians but the isolation really got in the way of their playing.