Mic mod : CK12 clone, or real one ?

[Avgatzeblouz]

Hi everybody,

I own two AKG "The Tube" (not Solidtube) which sounded fantastic, but one of them does not anymore due to a capsule issue.
I could replace it for a decent amount of money with the actual CK12 from AKG, but I'm afraid it won't sound the same it used to do, won't be close from the other one I have, and worse, could sound like a C12VR which I hate.

So I thought I could put a real brass CK12 into it. Hard to find, and expensive. So I searched into the forums for clones, and found ideas :

The P12 from Peluso
The mod from Korby (with either a real CK12 or his one)
The mod from Stephen Paul
The capsule CT12 from Tim Campbell (Tim Campbell)
JJ audio ?
The capsule from Flea, but it doesn't appear to be sold on their website
The mod from Saturn Sound (conversion to c12 electronics)
And I guess Telefunken USA or Wunder won't sell their capsules.

Now, here is my question : What do I do !!!???

I talked to Korby, and the mod is way too expensive for the money I have. The AKG replacement is in my league. But I wanna make sure I do the good move.

So does anyone of you had his mic "The Tube" modded, or do you know the value of all those clones, what advice could you give me ?

Thanks a lot !

[antoniosolo]

Not that my opinion is worth much but "I" would suggest getting both mics modded with a good pair of capsules, you will then have a great matched pair.

[Avgatzeblouz]

That sounds good to me, but with which capsule ? I can't try them all !

[Dusan]

Have you talked to drefahlaudio microphone service repair reskinning mikrofonreparaturen
They can do wanders for older mics, and they know AKGs rather well.

[Crash]

It was my understanding that "The Tube" and the AKG414B-ULS shared the same capsule. I thought I read that over on the PSW forum where Klaus lives. You may want to research that. I also thought the only difference between "The Tube" and the C-12VR was the VR used the AKG 414TLII capsule, other than that they were identical in terms of electronics. Once again, research it, I may be wrong on this one but that is what I thought I remembered when I was researching "The Tube" when I was looking at buying one.

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by Crash

It was my understanding that "The Tube" and the AKG414B-ULS shared the same capsule. I thought I read that over on the PSW forum where Klaus lives. You may want to research that. I also thought the only difference between "The Tube" and the C-12VR was the VR used the AKG 414TLII capsule, other than that they were identical in terms of electronics. Once again, research it, I may be wrong on this one but that is what I thought I remembered when I was researching "The Tube" when I was looking at buying one.

Correct afaik....the only difference between the The Tube and C12VR is the capsule...both capsules are still made and used in AKG mics today..so just ask for a 'The Tube' capsule, the difference is the CK12 capsule in the VR and other AKG's is supposed to be optimised for vocals.

[antoniosolo]

Thiersch are about $800 and things diminish in cost from there IIRC. Try them over at PSW like they suggested, Klaus will have a recommendation for you possibly.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

And I guess Telefunken USA or Wunder won't sell their capsules.

TELEFUNKEN l USA is now TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik. It depends where we stand with production. There are times when we will offer them as "aftermarket service parts".

There has also been the CK-13™ development [you can read more about it here] and those, as they're available might also be a replacement to consider.

It is kind of an arbitrary thing that mainly depends on what we have on hand vs. what we require for current production.

We won't do the installation to an AKG mic, but if you need the part we may very well be able to make it available to you.

Fair enough?

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

TELEFUNKEN l USA is now TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik. It depends where we stand with production. There are times when we will offer them as "aftermarket service parts".

There has also been the CK-13™ development [you can read more about it here] and those, as they're available might also be a replacement to consider.

It is kind of an arbitrary thing that mainly depends on what we have on hand vs. what we require for current production.

We won't do the installation to an AKG mic, but if you need the part we may very well be able to make it available to you.

Fair enough?

I know you sell the thing so maybe it's unreasonable of me to expect an objective opinion, but what's your thought/impression on the CK13 capsule in comparison to an original CK12?

[Jeff D.]

I tried swapping a vintage CK12 capsule from an old C412 into a C12VR. It didn't turn the C12VR into a vintage C12.... the mic was still soggy in the mids. The high end was different, maybe a bit more extended, but I ended up putting the original capsule back in.

I would put it back to stock if I were you, and use it for what The Tube is good for - taming instruments with unrully upper mids. I always liked using a pair on drum kits with overly bright cymbals.

[PelusoMicrophone]

Hi:
We sell Wunder our CEK12-2 for his C-12 Clone.

John Peluso

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

Hi everybody,

I own two AKG "The Tube" (not Solidtube) which sounded fantastic, but one of them does not anymore due to a capsule issue.
I could replace it for a decent amount of money with the actual CK12 from AKG, but I'm afraid it won't sound the same it used to do, won't be close from the other one I have, and worse, could sound like a C12VR which I hate.

So I thought I could put a real brass CK12 into it. Hard to find, and expensive. So I searched into the forums for clones, and found ideas :

The P12 from Peluso
The mod from Korby (with either a real CK12 or his one)
The mod from Stephen Paul
The capsule CT12 from Tim Campbell (Tim Campbell)
JJ audio ?
The capsule from Flea, but it doesn't appear to be sold on their website
The mod from Saturn Sound (conversion to c12 electronics)
And I guess Telefunken USA or Wunder won't sell their capsules.

Now, here is my question : What do I do !!!???

I talked to Korby, and the mod is way too expensive for the money I have. The AKG replacement is in my league. But I wanna make sure I do the good move.

So does anyone of you had his mic "The Tube" modded, or do you know the value of all those clones, what advice could you give me ?

Thanks a lot !

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by Jeff D.

I tried swapping a vintage CK12 capsule from an old C412 into a C12VR. It didn't turn the C12VR into a vintage C12.... the mic was still soggy in the mids. The high end was different, maybe a bit more extended, but I ended up putting the original capsule back in.

Yes..it wont help much...lots of other stuff needs to be swapped out and rewired to get a VR or 'The Tube' even close to an orignal C12..even finding an original CK12 in good condition is difficult.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by dbjp

I know you sell the thing so maybe it's unreasonable of me to expect an objective opinion, but what's your thought/impression on the CK13 capsule in comparison to an original CK12?

Different.

I think the bass is a bit better defined, in some cases I hear an interesting "airy" quality on some vocals that I don't hear with other tools. Its really a matter of taste. I wouldn't call it better [though I have in some applications], I wouldn't call it worse.

During the time when we had it in initial development I took it over to the Meth Lab at Mercenary and did a bit of a "compare and contrast" on a male vocal I was very familiar recording [it was an actual "vocal session" for the demo version of the song - not yet completed]. At any rate, the M-A guys shot video of the thing which is posted on their website The Meth Lab - Videos

The end combination was the CK-13 [at the time of the production of the video the "working title" for the CK-13 was "Titanium" as it employs a Titanium/Aluminum allow called "Alloy 2213™" as the diaphragm membrane material] for the "lead vocal" with the CK-12 "gold" for whatever double lines we used. The harmony stuff was done with the Jospheson "720". I don't think they have the other mics printed to their multi-track version [I could be wrong about that] and I don't think they have the final vocal arrangement either] I could be wrong about that too.

My point being is that you might be able to gather some rough information about the difference in character between the CK-12 and the CK-13. Yes, I know that this is an application specific example to the singer / song / performance at hand... but for me it was very telling as I have been working with Jim on and off for the last 20 years on various projects.

Peace.

[Haz-Mat-Strat]

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

Hi everybody,

I own two AKG "The Tube" (not Solidtube) which sounded fantastic, but one of them does not anymore due to a capsule issue.
I could replace it for a decent amount of money with the actual CK12 from AKG, but I'm afraid it won't sound the same it used to do, won't be close from the other one I have, and worse, could sound like a C12VR which I hate.

So I thought I could put a real brass CK12 into it. Hard to find, and expensive. So I searched into the forums for clones, and found ideas :

The P12 from Peluso
The mod from Korby (with either a real CK12 or his one)
The mod from Stephen Paul
The capsule CT12 from Tim Campbell (Tim Campbell)
JJ audio ?
The capsule from Flea, but it doesn't appear to be sold on their website
The mod from Saturn Sound (conversion to c12 electronics)
And I guess Telefunken USA or Wunder won't sell their capsules.

Now, here is my question : What do I do !!!???

I talked to Korby, and the mod is way too expensive for the money I have. The AKG replacement is in my league. But I wanna make sure I do the good move.

So does anyone of you had his mic "The Tube" modded, or do you know the value of all those clones, what advice could you give me ?

Thanks a lot !

Hi

The AKG Tube capsule in the 2416k1001 The capsule in the VR is the 2072z0005 it is the same as the TL2 and has a slight high fequency boost for "vocal" applications. The capsule from AKG is under $300. I dont think they sell the "Tube" teflon capsule any more so you may get a sound closer to the VR than you would like.

There are minor differences int the circuit of the "Tube" and the "VR" They are both renditions of the C24 fixed bias. Both have almost the same circuit with minor differences on the B+ voltage resistors and a 3gig resistor on the pattern voltage. The actual vintage C12 is a self bias circuit.


The major differences are the capsule and the transformer. To get the C12 sound you must use components that as as close to the original as possible. The circuit is not exact but close. The closest transformer would be the AMI T14.This is a copy of the early C12 transformer. It has a lot more color than a Jensen or a Cinemag would. All of the capsules except for the CT12 (I have not seen the Telefunken) is not a true "copy" of the brass CK12. Tim Campbell does replicate the capsule and has the sound very close to the original.

I modded an Avant CV12 and compered it with a JJ Audio Dutch. The owner wanted to add the CT12 at a later date. The Avant has a stock capsule and the Dutch has an ADK TT capsule. Both mics have the C12 self bias circuit. The Avant has the AMI transformer and the Dutch has the Cinemag. The AMI has more transformer color in the sound. You can hear the different transformers in this thread.

JJ Audio Cv12 Mod and the JJ Audio Dutch


If I had this microphone I would convert the mic to the original C12 circuit, get rid of the 10db boost, change the 12v heater to 6v heater, change the capsule to a CT12, replace the transformer with a T14 and record some great sounding music. thumbsup

[andrewenson]

Originally Posted by PelusoMicrophone

Hi:
We sell Wunder our CEK12-2 for his C-12 Clone.

John Peluso

oh
my
god....

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Different.

I think the bass is a bit better defined, in some cases I hear an interesting "airy" quality on some vocals that I don't hear with other tools. Its really a matter of taste. I wouldn't call it better [though I have in some applications], I wouldn't call it worse.

During the time when we had it in initial development I took it over to the Meth Lab at Mercenary and did a bit of a "compare and contrast" on a male vocal I was very familiar recording [it was an actual "vocal session" for the demo version of the song - not yet completed]. At any rate, the M-A guys shot video of the thing which is posted on their website The Meth Lab - Videos

The end combination was the CK-13 [at the time of the production of the video the "working title" for the CK-13 was "Titanium" as it employs a Titanium/Aluminum allow called "Alloy 2213™" as the diaphragm membrane material] for the "lead vocal" with the CK-12 "gold" for whatever double lines we used. The harmony stuff was done with the Jospheson "720". I don't think they have the other mics printed to their multi-track version [I could be wrong about that] and I don't think they have the final vocal arrangement either] I could be wrong about that too.

My point being is that you might be able to gather some rough information about the difference in character between the CK-12 and the CK-13. Yes, I know that this is an application specific example to the singer / song / performance at hand... but for me it was very telling as I have been working with Jim on and off for the last 20 years on various projects.

Peace.

Thanks. I'll check the video out.

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by PelusoMicrophone

Hi:
We sell Wunder our CEK12-2 for his C-12 Clone.

John Peluso

How come the Wunder sound 100 time better than your mic if they use the same capsule!!!!!!!!
There are more than the capsule when it come to sound microphone i guess......

[andrewenson]

Originally Posted by bigbone

How come the Wunder sound 100 time better than your mic if they use the same capsule!!!!!!!!
There are more than the capsule when it come to sound microphone i guess......

peluso also charges 1/2 the price you arse. that was pretty blatant.
i'm not a fan of peluso. in fact i dont like his mics but thats not because his mics suck. its because i'm not going for that sound. there are many people who love their pelusos and i've already read about one person on this forum that likes their 2247 better than their cm7gt. we all have different tastes. to say that wunder sounds 100 times better (even if you're exaggerating) is extremely stupid. i admire the amount of mics he sells and parts he sells to a lot of companies (you'd be surprised who buys his parts).

ugh i havent slept yet
i'm gonna stop talking. i dont know if i'm defending someone of offending them anymore. in fact i hate all people that "make" mics
good night, at 10am

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by andrewenson

peluso also charges 1/2 the price you arse. that was pretty blatant.
i'm not a fan of peluso. in fact i dont like his mics but thats not because his mics suck. its because i'm not going for that sound. there are many people who love their pelusos and i've already read about one person on this forum that likes their 2247 better than their cm7gt. we all have different tastes. to say that wunder sounds 100 times better (even if you're exaggerating) is extremely stupid. i admire the amount of mics he sells and parts he sells to a lot of companies (you'd be surprised who buys his parts).

ugh i havent slept yet
i'm gonna stop talking. i dont know if i'm defending someone of offending them anymore. in fact i hate all people that "make" mics
good night, at 10am

Calling name ( stupid and arse ), is not my idea of a discussion....

[tguy]

Originally Posted by bigbone

How come the Wunder sound 100 time better than your mic if they use the same capsule!!!!!!!!
There are more than the capsule when it come to sound microphone i guess......

Have you done a side by side (A/B) comparison of his P12 with the Wunder C12 copy? ...........

[andrewenson]

Originally Posted by bigbone

Calling name ( stupid and arse ), is not my idea of a discussion....

mine neither. thats not the point of calling someone an arse.

Originally Posted by tguy

Have you done a side by side (A/B) comparison of his P12 with the Wunder C12 copy? ...........

the wunder cm12 is amazing. i just received my gtw/m7 and my cm12. both flippin great. although the cm12 i got ended up being an older one. early cm12's (from what i've read on the board the cm12 doesnt sell much anyways. expensive mic but worth it). i'm not sure if wunders changed anything since the one i have was built. well i know one thing was changed but i wont elaborate on it

i have a severe case of insomnia right now due to gear sickness....

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by tguy

Have you done a side by side (A/B) comparison of his P12 with the Wunder C12 copy? ...........

Yes i did, as OH'S. and the Wunder was more detail, more '' beefy'', in general , in my room, with my drums, that was day and night.Sorry for the Peluso fan in here.

And i always talk with first hand experience here by the way.......

[Avgatzeblouz]

Wow ! It is really cool to see that many people jumping in this thread ! Thanks to everyone ! From what I read, I learned several things :

1 - Nobody seems to really know what is the difference between the Tube and the C12VR. I've done a lot of searches around the net, called AKG in Austria (said it was the same capsule, that had been updated since the 80s, but exactly same design, just components upgrades, plus one resistor change !), called the AKG distributor in Canada (said it is the exact same capsule 2072Z0005, minor circuitry changes). Looking at saturn-sound website (AKG's 2072 Z 0005 capsule), it seems the capsule for The Tube is the 2072Z0005, and the one for the C12VR is the 2072Z0009.
When you look at AKG's doc (http://www.akg.com/mediendatenbank2/...5d224571de.pdf) it is said the capsule for the Tube is the 2072Z0005, and the one for the VR is the 2072Z0011 ! Now if I quote Jim Jacobsen in this thread : "The AKG Tube capsule in the 2416k1001 The capsule in the VR is the 2072z0005". Another reference !! Help !

2 - If I don't get the exact same capsule than in the original "The Tube", I will be disapointed. Circuit changes would be required, to just upgrade it (let's hope not downgrade !) to a different mic, which sounds interesting to me.

3 - The capsule is of course very important, but definitely not the whole sound of a microphone !! (discussion about the Peluso and Wunder). Thanks to Peluso and Telefunken to give this thread some very interesting information, by the way !

4 - I'm gonna triple check through all the AKG representatives around the world that I can get the EXCAT SAME CAPSULE as in the original "The Tube", and if yes, I'm gonna get it. If not, I'm gonna have it modded. The mod from JJ audio sounded quite nice !

Do you guys think I'm going to the right direction ? Knowing that I just love the sound of a "The Tube", that I never heard a real C12, that I rave about the unreachable expensive clone from Wunder, that I'm not fan about the one from Telefunken, and that I hate the C12VR !!

Thanks to everyone ! Things are really less cloudy than 2 days ago !

[tguy]

Thanks for the comparison. I dont own any Peluso mics but I have heard his P12 is one of the better ones of his line. But the price difference between the P12 and CM12 is quite large. Anyone could only assume that the CM12 is a better mic (or representation of the original)

[Avgatzeblouz]

Just a quick question about the jump from JJAudio : Isn't the Avant mic a chinese cheap mic ? Not judging, just asking...

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

Just a quick question about the jump from JJAudio : Isn't the Avant mic a chinese cheap mic ? Not judging, just asking...

The Avant is indeed a mic that is manufactured in China.

Thats why when you gut the mic completely, you only have the body sleeve and head grill, 7 pin connector, psu to play with. PSU gets rebuilt btw.

We take out the PCB and replace it with our own circuit, we added the T14/1, GE 5 star 6072a and lo and behold that Apex 460 capsule took on an entirely different character!

The only thing left to do was mod the headbasket and if the end user so pleases, to get one of Tim Campbells CK12 capsules.

I highly doubt there's anything left of the original Chinese mic at that point!

Peace
Illumination

[Avgatzeblouz]

Thanks, I get it now... With a CT12, does it compare to a C12 ?

[illacov]

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

Thanks, I get it now... With a CT12, does it compare to a C12 ?

Definitely!

Tim Campbells CK12 capsule is stellar.

We also have our own JJ12 for the budget minded customer, which we get from our North American supplier.

Both capsules as far as I can attest to sound absolutely gorgeous. The Tim Campbell by far is the superior choice and adds that extra degree of fairy dust. It of course has a higher cost than our JJ12 but we offer both as options. The choice is yours!

This week we will be installing our JJ12 into our Red Schnauzer microphone (251 inspired mic) and will be introducing the mic here on gearslutz!

One mic at a time!

Peace
Illumination

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz

does it compare to a C12 ?

I wouldn't go there...

[andrewenson]

Originally Posted by tguy

Thanks for the comparison. I dont own any Peluso mics but I have heard his P12 is one of the better ones of his line. But the price difference between the P12 and CM12 is quite large. Anyone could only assume that the CM12 is a better mic (or representation of the original)

i love my cm12