Mic mod : CK12 clone, or real one ?

[jjblair]

To clarify here. The APEX and AVATON stock capsule have a single back-plate and are center fed while the Peluso CEK12 and the capsule we use in our CM12 and CM414 have two separate back-plates which I think you are referring to as multiple chamber.

The CK12 is probably the most complicated capsule ever mass produced. It's not just dual back plates, there are multiple delay networks that need to be properly tuned. Each backplate has a separate plate that screws into it, which means you essentially have four plates. To say, "You guys make this all too complicated. A capsule is just a piece of brass with holes drilled in it an some mylar pulled over the top at a specific tension. With today's computer and laser technology the quality control is not as much of a problem as it was in the 60's," shows a complete lack of understanding about the complexities of the CK12.

I have listened to a lot of authentic CK12s, and a good number of clones. I own seven of them ... a couple of them are NOS, even. They vary greatly, even when they are of the same period, of the same design revision. There are several reasons for the variations, and if anybody thinks that the Chinese can make a capsule for $95 that is anywhere on par with an authentic AKG CK12, then they need to up their dosage.

If experts like Josephson and Haun have not been able to exactly replicate a CK12, I really doubt the Chinese that make the backplates for Peluso can do it. Additionally, the specific sputtering process, unique to a CK12, makes a huge difference as well. The only maker I know who has the correct AKG mylar is Tim Campbell. Not even Telefishman, who might otherwise have the most physically identical reproduction, has that stuff.

That design is very easy to get wrong, and make sound way too harsh. The magic of a good CK12 is that it can be so forward and bright, yet in the most elegant way. It's very difficult to achieve.

I'll bet $100 that these Chinese and Peluso capsules do not have a delay network that matches the CK12. You can't machine something that complex for $95. It's just not possible.

Here's a pic of the four plates. Then add glueing the mylar to the rings and several spacer rings, and it's easy to see how hard it is to get this right. Lasers and computers can't do this kind of work.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by jjblair

Here's a pic of the four plates. Then add glueing the mylar to the rings and several spacer rings, and it's easy to see how hard it is to get this right. Lasers and computers can't do this kind of work.

i wonder if their using the same glue as audio technica???

[pasarski]

I sure hope Tim Campbell don't run out the mylar in the near future cause I still haven't got the budget for a one for my mic build (it's a bargain but I'm poor). Damn, shouldn't advertise it here open and loud..

[jjblair]

Originally Posted by tapehiss

i wonder if their using the same glue as audio technica???

You mean, THIS glue? LOL.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...1&d=1235955200

[DONNX]

JJblair. Thanks for the post. I just had a wonderful conversation today with Andreas Grosser and we talked alot about the CK12 capsule and along with other things..


I got a question. You stated you own several authentic CK12s. When you tested them. Did you test them compared to newer remakes by Haun and Tim Campbell using the same mic, headbasket and electronics? Or were your test using different mics with the CK12 and its remakes? Or how did you test them?

I have heard good things of the German made Haun CK12. I plan to get a few soon. I had the option to buy a few unused authentic CK12s but I passed them up for some Hauns instead.. But from what I understand from my research. The materials used on the older originals compared to the new are slightly different. The original being more of a non-consistent capsule (aging, materials,etc are contributors to this )and it having less low end than its modern counterparts. It makes sense if the originals do have less low end. Would that partly make it a well reached for mic for female vocals? Love to hear your feedback. Thanks



Thanks

Originally Posted by jjblair

The CK12 is probably the most complicated capsule ever mass produced. It's not just dual back plates, there are multiple delay networks that need to be properly tuned. Each backplate has a separate plate that screws into it, which means you essentially have four plates. To say, "You guys make this all too complicated. A capsule is just a piece of brass with holes drilled in it an some mylar pulled over the top at a specific tension. With today's computer and laser technology the quality control is not as much of a problem as it was in the 60's," shows a complete lack of understanding about the complexities of the CK12.

I have listened to a lot of authentic CK12s, and a good number of clones. I own seven of them ... a couple of them are NOS, even. They vary greatly, even when they are of the same period, of the same design revision. There are several reasons for the variations, and if anybody thinks that the Chinese can make a capsule for $95 that is anywhere on par with an authentic AKG CK12, then they need to up their dosage.

If experts like Josephson and Haun have not been able to exactly replicate a CK12, I really doubt the Chinese that make the backplates for Peluso can do it. Additionally, the specific sputtering process, unique to a CK12, makes a huge difference as well. The only maker I know who has the correct AKG mylar is Tim Campbell. Not even Telefishman has that stuff.

That design is very easy to get wrong, and sound way too harsh. The magic of a good CK12 is that it can be so forward and bright, yet in the most elegant way. It's very difficult to achieve.

I'll bet $100 that these Chinese and Peluso capsules do not have a delay network that matches the CK12. You can't machine something that complex for $95. It's just not possible.

Here's a pic of the four plates. Then add glueing the mylar to the rings and several spacer rings, and it's easy to see how hard it is to get this right. Lasers and computers can't do this kind of work.

[jjblair]

DONNX, I always test using the same mic. Otherwise, how can you tell what's causing what? This is a real pain with a CK12, as well. They do not swap easily, and are very easy to damage.

Aging has less to do with the differences, unless you consider tension loss due to use as aging. The first reason is design revisions. The next reason is backplate tuning, as far as I can determine. Changing the position of those inner plates ever so slightly will change a number of things sonically.

As far as low end goes, I find the Haun in my Pape C12 to have the most piercing top, and least bottom, of any of the clones. The Bock/Haun version of the capsule is better. I don't find that lack of bottom end is anything that I'm noticing consistently in my CK12s. The one with the best bottom I heard is David Bock's black plastic CK12, on which he based his capsules, and that's old for sure.

The only aging thing that should change bottom end, as far as I can tell, would be a stiffening or shrinking of the diaphragm. The mylar won't do that. The very first CK12s in the really early C12s used Styroflex, and I suppose that could be an issue, but I doubt the spares you encountered are Styroflex.

As long as her voice doesn't have a certain type of rasp, CK12 equipped mics are usually what I reach for first for females.

[DONNX]

Cool. Thanks for your observations and experience with Papi C12.

Well when I do get my Haun's built in the mics I am ordering. I surely will report my observations. You got myself thinking at this point, that I should get an original CK12 just to hear the differences with my own ears. I hope that my C12 custom built mic doesn't have the "PIERCING" high end you mentioned. I surely want to preserve my hearing. You think the capsule alone is the culprit for the "piercing" high end you mentioned and not the electronics or head basket?

Peace

Originally Posted by jjblair

DONNX, I always test using the same mic. Otherwise, how can you tell what's causing what? This is a real pain with a CK12, as well. They do not swap easily, and are very easy to damage.

Aging has less to do with the differences, unless you consider tension loss due to use as aging. The first reason is design revisions. The next reason is backplate tuning, as far as I can determine. Changing the position of those inner plates ever so slightly will change a number of things.

As far as low end goes, I find the Haun in my Pape C12 to have the most piercing top, and least bottom, of any of the clones. The Bock/Haun version of the capsule is better. I don't find that lack of bottom end is anything that I'm noticing consistently in my CK12s. The one with the best bottom I heard is David Bock's black plastic CK12, on which he based his capsules, and that's old for sure.

The only aging thing that should age bottom end, as far as I can tell, would be a stiffening or shrinking of the diaphragm. The mylar won't do that. The very first CK12s in the really early C12s used Styroflex, and I suppose that could be an issue, but I doubt the spares you encountered are Styroflex.

As long as her voice doesn't have a certain type of rasp, CK12 equipped mics are usually what I reach for first for females.

[jjblair]

When I say "piercing," I just mean in relation to the AKG CK12. I still love my Pape. That capsule is great.

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by jjblair

When I say "piercing," I just mean in relation to the AKG CK12. I still love my Pape. That capsule is great.

Gotcha thanks

[kendog]

I bought a C12VR from a fellow slut last month and sent it to Jim Williams. I just got it back. Holy Moly. I can't believe how great it sounds. Jim is the man. The mic was OK before, but too dark, too much low mid mud and when you pushed it, it got harsh on top. Now it is AMAZING. Clear, open, and wonderful. Unreal. The Jim Williams C12VR mod is by far the best $150 I have ever spent on a gear related purchase. I have done lots of biz with Jim, the man knows his stuff.

[bace]

Are the remakes by Haun and Tim Campbell real copy's? As I understand it telefunken-usa are building with original design. But the Peluso CEK12 is not a copy and not even the same functions. I compare pics with Tim Campbel's with the original and they are not exactly identical as you can see with the naked eye.

[Tim Campbell]

Bace,
Externally my capsules (and Haun's) look a little different than AKG's. There are no threads around the circumference. This was done by AKG for their lapping machine.

There are other small cosmetic differences but mechanically and operationally my capsule (and Hauns) are built the same as AKG's. They're not K67 types with no center termination as are some chinese capsules.

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by drtaudio

Very serious. I get them from China where else. You guys make this all too complicated. A capsule is just a piece of brass with holes drilled in it an some mylar pulled over the top at a specific tension. With today's computer and laser technology the quality control is not as much of a problem as it was in the 60's. We do reject the odd capsule but not as many as I was led to believe by "the experts" and I was more than surprised with the quality. I do work very closely with the Chinese engineers to insure these capsules are as good as they can be. Are they as good as the originals??? ... I don't know but they make some damn good recordings.

What happens is that really decent sounding microphones get into the hand of a lot more folks for a lot less money. I am not trying to re-create the C12 or ELA M12 but offer folks a microphone with that kind of sound signature for a reasonable price. So, for just under a $1000 you get a microphone that get really close to the "USUAL SUSPECTS" while $9000 more you get a microphone that's gets you even closer to the "real thing".

I can't imagine how much you would have to spend to get the "real thing"!!!

Even as a Canadian I don't think I need to apologize for this.

Cheers, Dave
Advanced Audio Microphones










V

I wish it was that simple and cheap. I would sell all my high dollar mics right now. Chinese mics are horrific. They remind of chinese made pocket knives in a flea market in comparison to an American made Randall knife.

[bace]

Originally Posted by Tim Campbell

Bace,
Externally my capsules (and Haun's) look a little different than AKG's. There are no threads around the circumference. This was done by AKG for their lapping machine.

There are other small cosmetic differences but mechanically and operationally my capsule (and Hauns) are built the same as AKG's. They're not K67 types with no center termination as are some chinese capsules.

Thanks for the quick answer. So what you are saying is that yours have this double back plate? I don't really know what it does and why its good. But it's nice that at least someone do good new ck12 styles capsule.

[gpiccolini]

sorry for reviving this very interesting thread once more, but I wonder if it's possible and can be useful to invest on a Tim Campbell capsule for a Peluso P12. Maybe it's not even possible.
...

[didier.brest]

I have the same question for an Advanced Audio CM12...

[Tim Campbell]

Please email me at tim@timcampbell.dk and I'll be glad to answer your questions. In general, my capsule will work in any microphone with 60v polarization voltage and should excel in a C12/Ela M250 circuit.