Getting an Ampex MM1200 16 Track 2". Setup help???

[judah]

Originally Posted by drBill

Unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what you have been listening to. How much you hear it? Depends on your program material and your ears. BUT, if you're usinig an analog deck as master and PT as slave, it is SLEWING to stay in sync with the deck.

Try this : Generate a click track. Record 15 minutes to your multitrack at the same time as you record it to your PT rig. Both running wild. Then, both still running wild, record the analog click into PT. Line up the first one. How far off is it at the end?

the DAW must SLEW to stay in sync. Physics.

Sure I'm not a wizard but cut my teeth on a Tascam ATR80 for a few years and then moved to digital.
When I first started I only had a lowly Motu 2408mkII to dump my tracks from tape to DAW and I had to do it in 3 pass (obviously). Well I did this very same test to see how much the tape would drift between each pass and to my surprise, at the end of a 4 minute song, the total drift was in the neighboor of tenth of second.

I made sure that stereo tracks (like overheads or keys) where on the same pass, but it never blew the song because of this tiny tiny tiny tiny drift. Was I lucky?

Just my cent.

[banevt]

I'm glad I caught the tail end of working on tape in professional studios and learned how to properly sync machines, even though a lot of those skills are becoming employed less often.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by judah

at the end of a 4 minute song, the total drift was in the neighboor of tenth of second.

Originally Posted by judah

tiny tiny tiny tiny drift.

I wouldn't call being 3 frames off a tiny, tiny drift. If drums are 1/4 to 1/2 a frame out, I start getting really nervous.

Originally Posted by judah

Was I lucky?

You tell us..... thumbsup

[judah]

Originally Posted by drBill

I wouldn't call being 3 frames off a tiny, tiny drift. If drums are 1/4 to 1/2 a frame out, I start getting really nervous.




You tell us..... thumbsup

When you work with sloppy drummers for years you tend to appreciate tenths of second as pretty close...

Half kiddin...

[Steck]

Originally Posted by drBill

Yes. Important to note, and with the limited tape selection these days, I think people who weren't using machines back in their heyday don't realize how much you can personalize and tweak the sound of a machine. Even channel to channel. ie: one sound for kick, a different bias for snare. Slam bass hard, not so much on vocal tracks, etc..



It's true. Although I'm sure once the initial infatuation wears off, you'll be back doing most of your work on PT per normal practice.

+1

[EndlessAnalog]

Thanks Eric Greedy and Dr. Bill for helping to clear some things up on this thread. I don't usually post on here however... With all due respect... There is a reason I spent 5 years developing and designing the CLASP system for Pro Tools, getting licenses from Digi etc... The method Brad M. is pitching (voxengo) does NOT work on Pro Tools. Period. This is mis-information. If you want seamless integration of tape with Pro Tools, CLASP is the solution. Or if you want to monkey screw around all day while your client is getting impatient, there is always that option. And Yes, people bitch about the price... but people bitch about the price of Pro Tools too (and the price of rice in china) . It's obviously not for everyone. But our hi-end clients who have been using analog tape for years and years with Pro Tools absolutely love CLASP. Just ask Mr. Kravitz... We have built a hi quality sample accurate tape management system that gives you seamless pro tools integration. It's built here in the U.S. and it has ZERO latency monitoring. Something you don't get with quick punch with Pro Tools alone. We will be posting more videos on our site in the next few weeks with more testimonials from some of the biggest Artists, Producers, and Engineers in the business. Stay tuned...

Peace and Love,

Chris

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Now this is a thread!

I gotta be honest, I spent the day going around to a bunch of studios and demoing machines and listening to records tracked with both Ampex MM1200 and a Studer A800. That Ampex seems way out of what I can to deal with, the Studer was easier and seemed way more put together. Both sounded great to me. I love vocals on tape, yummy! I looked at a 16 track A800 MKI with the MKIII upgrade today, very nice, super low hours, I also left a message for Charlie Bolius (sp?)

Honestly I'm intimidated by the 1200, it just looks like it would get the best of me and turn this into a bad scene. The way it handles tape freaked me out, the Studer was so smooth and polished. I'm strung out from researching this.

My buddy had an A827, A820, A800 and MM1200 and kept the A800, he liked the sound the best and loved the way it ran. He felt for the style of music I do that the 800 would be way more appropriate and more versatile. I listen to 2 records he did, one with each machine, both styles were very different but both were excellent. I liked the cleaner lesser bottom end of the Studer and the less hiss. I thought the tone sounded a little more modern, what do I know... They were both great.

James

p.s. I am so grateful for all the help, I'm gonna get up in the morning and read through the whole thread.

If it were me and I could choose any machine, it would be the A800.

You could also ask ToddF (Winterland Studios) about it, he has one at the studio along with an API Legacy Plus.

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

If it were me and I could choose any machine, it would be the A800.

You could also ask ToddF (Winterland Studios) about it, he has one at the studio along with an API Legacy Plus.

I have been reading and researching like a madman. It seems that they don't make some parts for the A800 anymore, if this is true are there ways around it? Old stock?

[dbbubba]

Studer is part of Harmann Interntional and they have a guy who handles all of the Studer stuff out in L.A.
He was a limited amount of help when I restored a Studer A810 about two years ago.
He will know who the Studer techs are and who has and where the remaining parts are.

[mbrebes]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I have been reading and researching like a madman. It seems that they don't make some parts for the A800 anymore, if this is true are there ways around it? Old stock?

You would probably run into that problem with the Ampex as well. Worked on a 1200 years ago and it used ECL logic which is not made anymore. Those parts are only available as NOS. Probably some parts on the A800 would be same status.

[drBill]

You're going to start running into those types of problems with any tape machine. Probably sooner than later.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by mbrebes

You would probably run into that problem with the Ampex as well. Worked on a 1200 years ago and it used ECL logic which is not made anymore. Those parts are only available as NOS. Probably some parts on the A800 would be same status.

The Studer is probably a more refined build quality though, some of the parts might last longer. In LA you could probably find one in some old rocker's living room that hasn't been used much.


(the Studer, not the living room)

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

old rocker's living room

I resemble that remark.

I couldn't be more confused about this whole thing. I've got all these number for tape techs and I can't get anyone on the phone.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I resemble that remark.

I couldn't be more confused about this whole thing. I've got all these number for tape techs and I can't get anyone on the phone.

Just find a Studer and make sure everything is working properly before you buy it. These really aren't that hard to figure out, WAY easier than anything involved with computer recording.

I was about 21 when I got the 16 track Scully. My only experience was cassettes and a Teac 3340 four track and the book Modern Recording Techniques. And the machine was in kind of rough shape, but I made it work. No tech ever looked at it in all the years I had it. Believe me, I'm not no tech. But I am good with a soldering iron and made every damn cable needed to get it going with my Tangent 16 X 4 board and an AKG reverb chamber.

Every musician I knew wanted to hang out at my house.

[RyanC]

Originally Posted by EndlessAnalog

Thanks Eric Greedy and Dr. Bill for helping to clear some things up on this thread. I don't usually post on here however... With all due respect... There is a reason I spent 5 years developing and designing the CLASP system for Pro Tools, getting licenses from Digi etc... The method Brad M. is pitching (voxengo) does NOT work on Pro Tools. Period. This is mis-information. If you want seamless integration of tape with Pro Tools, CLASP is the solution. Or if you want to monkey screw around all day while your client is getting impatient, there is always that option. And Yes, people bitch about the price... but people bitch about the price of Pro Tools too (and the price of rice in china) . It's obviously not for everyone. But our hi-end clients who have been using analog tape for years and years with Pro Tools absolutely love CLASP. Just ask Mr. Kravitz... We have built a hi quality sample accurate tape management system that gives you seamless pro tools integration. It's built here in the U.S. and it has ZERO latency monitoring. Something you don't get with quick punch with Pro Tools alone. We will be posting more videos on our site in the next few weeks with more testimonials from some of the biggest Artists, Producers, and Engineers in the business. Stay tuned...

Peace and Love,

Chris

Hey Chris-

Just to be clear about the method that DOES work in PT. . .

It does not require a plugin at all. 4 steps-

1. Measure your head delay.

2. Set your nudge value to samples and input the head delay.

3. Group all your tracks coming off tape.

4. Click on one of the tracks in the "tape" group, and hit the "-" button to line them up.

For me one mouse click and one button press is hardly "monkey screw{ing} around all day while your client is getting impatient". But that may be different for some. On the other side are you saying that CLASP + PT has lower latency then PT alone? Is it summing also? I'm trying to understand how this is possible without it actually mixing and providing the cue send?

[Eric Greedy]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I have been reading and researching like a madman. It seems that they don't make some parts for the A800 anymore, if this is true are there ways around it? Old stock?

James... like a few people here... I've worked intimately A LOT with all the major brands and models.. of all the ones I strongly urge you to look at a Steadier 827. Some other models (Stephans, Ampex 124, etc) do sound a little better.... BUT... the 827 was the last flagship model made. That means they as a group are a lot newer and in better condition. AND especially for you... they are the easiest to align... you use buttons and a menu on the top of the deck. For example, when you raise or lower the whole level (form say +6 to +9) there 's an "all" button... so in a few pushes your really close... then you zip through the other. Again two stored alignments.. so you can always have your brand/;level stored and then just another for outside clients, etc. The REMOTE is great,.... and it punches as good or better than an tape machine that was made.
Charlie Bolis is the tech... and yes.. Harman isn in Northridge... so all in all this would be by FAR the best choice. A800's had issues with age related things even in the early '90s ...

[drBill]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

and I can't get anyone on the phone.

LOL James, that's the #1 reason I dumped tape. Good tech's are hard to find, and flakey as hell. Seriously, concentrate on getting the studio up and running, and once you are good there, THEN think about tape. You'll sleep a lot better. thumbsup

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by drBill

LOL James, that's the #1 reason I dumped tape. Good tech's are hard to find, and flakey as hell. Seriously, concentrate on getting the studio up and running, and once you are good there, THEN think about tape. You'll sleep a lot better. thumbsup

I hear ya but it may be to late, I'm already on a mission! I'm like a clock, once I get wound there's no turning back.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I hear ya but it may be to late, I'm already on a mission! I'm like a clock, once I get wound there's no turning back.

OK.

I know better than to get between a man and his gear lust. thumbsup

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I hear ya but it may be to late, I'm already on a mission! I'm like a clock, once I get wound there's no turning back.

You really should get a good 16 channel board to go with it. The 16 track deck is like a musical instrument and it needs the proper interface to come alive.

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by drBill

OK.

I know better than to get between a man and his gear lust. thumbsup

It's not really gear lust, I mean I know gear lust. This is more like I'm bored with the way we make music, I'm bored with the approach and I'm bored with the sound. I mean I know protools and how to get good sounds like the back of my hand, zero effort, it's almost like I've lost the love of recording the way I do it now. Last night listening to my buddy tracks and the sound of vocals to 2", wow. Fukkin A! I want real tape saturation and tone. And obviously not for every session but the big rock records and my music, I want the option.

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

You really should get a good 16 channel board to go with it. The 16 track deck is like a musical instrument and it needs the proper interface to come alive.

Been thinkin that. Any suggestions?

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by EndlessAnalog

The method Brad M. is pitching (voxengo) does NOT work on Pro Tools. Period. This is mis-information. If you want seamless integration of tape with Pro Tools, CLASP is the solution. Or if you want to monkey screw around all day while your client is getting impatient, there is always that option. And Yes, people bitch about the price... but people bitch about the price of Pro Tools too (and the price of rice in china) . It's obviously not for everyone. But our hi-end clients who have been using analog tape for years and years with Pro Tools absolutely love CLASP. Just ask Mr. Kravitz... We have built a hi quality sample accurate tape management system that gives you seamless pro tools integration. It's built here in the U.S. and it has ZERO latency monitoring. Something you don't get with quick punch with Pro Tools alone. We will be posting more videos on our site in the next few weeks with more testimonials from some of the biggest Artists, Producers, and Engineers in the business. Stay tuned...
Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm hoping to see a demo of CLASP in person one of these days. I've heard very good things. From what I've learned on this thread, it sounds like ProTools has some limitations with its ADC that preclude the Voxengo plugin from being useful. RyanC has proposed a very reasonable workaround that only requires one extra step. The Voxengo plugin does, however, work very well with Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar, Digital Performer, and most other VST-supporting platforms that have ADC throughout their architecture.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Been thinkin that. Any suggestions?

Do you want functionality or tone? Budget?

I just picked up a Toft ATB24 for my studio...some mods will be in order once I get it cabled up. $5k for console...$1k for cables and patchbay it turns out I didn't have. Doh!

Brad

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

It's not really gear lust, I mean I know gear lust. This is more like I'm bored with the way we make music, I'm bored with the approach and I'm bored with the sound. I mean I know protools and how to get good sounds like the back of my hand, zero effort, it's almost like I've lost the love of recording the way I do it now. Last night listening to my buddy tracks and the sound of vocals to 2", wow. Fukkin A! I want real tape saturation and tone. And obviously not for every session but the big rock records and my music, I want the option.



Been thinkin that. Any suggestions?

I'm sure Jim Williams would tell you an old Soundcraft board. And you certainly can't go wrong there.

But really, you are in luck, there are so many on the used market at great prices because everyone wants to go in the box. So glad you want to come out! thumbsup

Beyond that, better do a search.

[Sounds Great]

How much could you spend on a board?

An Otari in LA:

Otari Concept Elite Mixer 24-trk analog Mixing Console - eBay (item 350264835168 end time Feb-10-10 14:00:04 PST)

[dbbubba]

I was just on the phone with Brian Roth and he mentioned how his friend's Studer A80 (which the guy is the original owner of BTW) went crazy last summer.
It turns out that the microprocessor blew up or died.
There is no source to have the operational code blown into a new microprocessor.

This same thing could happen on a JH-24 or any deck that has an imbedded microprocessor controlling things.
The problem with the Studer is that the microprocceor was handling A LOT of stuff.
The saving grace of MCI decks is that the JH-24 and JH-110 used the same microprocessor, so all you would have to do is find an un-used machine and steal the microprocessor from it.
In an MCI it is mostly the Autolocator that is controlled by the microprocessor.
In the case of the Studer, a large portion of the transport is controlled by the microprocessor.

In the Ampex MM1100's favor.... there is no microprocessor!
It is a much simpler system and easier to fix.

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I hear ya but it may be to late, I'm already on a mission! I'm like a clock, once I get wound there's no turning back.

Nice! It's gonna be a bitch at first (the learning curve kind of sucks). Set aside $1000-$2000+ for a good tech and keep reading...

But man... once you get things up and running the payoff is more than worth it. I have a MM1100 and when running right the thing is a tone monster.

I've kept it simple... used Brad's method for dumping to Nuendo .. it works. thumbsup

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

There is no source to have the operational code blown into a new microprocessor.

Whats the processor? I could probably dump the code out of a known good one and burn another.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by Space Station

Whats the processor? I could probably dump the code out of a known good one and burn another.

Brian ( and others ), would love you!
i'' shoot him a email now.

[analogtodd]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I was just on the phone with Brian Roth and he mentioned how his friend's Studer A80 (which the guy is the original owner of BTW) went crazy last summer.
It turns out that the microprocessor blew up or died.
There is no source to have the operational code blown into a new microprocessor.

I think that was Steve's A800 from last summer. Yeah, microprocessors are no fun!!!!