Just 8 Tracks, 1", tape. Are you brave enough? (DAPTONE)

[robertbonello]

damn i think i want to go 8 track...

[quantumpsych]

Originally Posted by soundrick

They do a very specific type of music and sound, and the equipment serves that. Hat's off.

What's so revolutionary though?? Seems like a niche to me.

I mean, yeah, it's cool, but proclaiming this as a panacea, or a way to "save" the music industry is ridiculous.

Not everyone wants their record to sound like it came out of the 70s, and there's NOTHING wrong with that either.

It would be nice to see more people on these boards that actually can appreciate modern production as well as "niche", "old school", "hipster" production. Saying one is better than the other is a little short-sighted, not to mention unrealistic.

it is niche, and it comes down to organic or synthetic... far left or far right. the best modern music comes from straddling the middle and embracing both.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by GlennR01

Taking away the colors blue and yellow doesn't immediately qualify the painting as a masterpiece.

LOL

[toneguru]

Hot Damn!

This sheets all over the junk hittin the pop and hop airwaves.

Tape rules, ribbon mics rule and real songs with real musicians and kick ass singers totally rule!

Anybody in San Fran got this going down hit me up... I can help and I will do so with a smile.

[JQ127]

I'm just doing 2" 16 track. I haven't even hooked up my 003 and Lynx Aurora 800. Bands I'm working with are really into recording to tape. Mixing on the console using outboard gear. Simple and straightforward. It works great for me but I understand it wouldn't for a lot of people.

But I gotta tell you-tape makes everybody step up their ballgame. No staring at a computer screen. People interact with each other. They listen. I know I know-they can do that with digital. I agree. I just never saw it happen with a computer screen in the control room.

[Brad McGowan]

The first thing I noticed when I turned off the computer and video monitor: people actually started listening to what they were doing in the studio. I mean really paying attention and listening...not looking at waveforms flash by. Look I even videotaped it happening:

YouTube - Park Street Trio jazz in studio 3

JQ127 is right...I've noticed the same thing. People step up their game. It makes the whole thing way more fun for recording bands trying to make a record.

Brad

[jindrich]

Listen a bit further. Not all Daptone records sound like Whinehouse or like the 60-70s, it only does so if you hardpan and use spring reverbs.

You can use the very same production methods and sound very modern, like the White Stripes, Nirvana, Frank Sinatra/Robbie Williams, Morrisey or Jamiroquai.
This is a quote from the guys at Daptone:

“We try to use as few mics as possible, and we’ve been using a lot of ribbon mics on this record. We figure out who’s coming in too loud and have the players and backup singers balance themselves, get the tones all right, in rehearsal, and then we record,” he said. “When you start using a lot of tracks, you end up having to do all that stuff in the mix. If you do it when you’re recording, it’s not really harder, it’s just sooner. People think it’s scary because you don’t have choices later, i.e. bring up the trumpets, but it’s like you’re going to have to hear that at some point. Whether it’s two months from now when you’re mixing, or now. So you may as well deal with it now.”

The only "problem" with this method is that you need people who can write songs and who can actually play, that's all.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by vincentvangogo

How can you guarantee that?
From what I've read the Daptone guys don't think you can get the same distortion, compression etc without tape-

I didn't mean literally. Try to stay on track here, this isn't a tape vs. digital debate. It's a production choice debate. If they had the last 8 track on the face of the earth and I went in there and stole their it, do you think they would go out of biz because they couldn't turn out basically the same music with PT, 16 track, Radar, ADAT or any other medium? Any experienced engineer/ producer can go back and forth with ease. It's in the production ethic, not in the number of tracks, the medium or the any other gaget or gizmo in the studio.

As for PT, I never said it is for everyone. I agree with UBK's personal choice. For HIM it's 8 track, analog, and an old brown sounding ( Isn't that what you once called it Greg???) mixer. Not for me.

Originally Posted by soundrick

I mean, yeah, it's cool, but proclaiming this as a panacea, or a way to "save" the music industry is ridiculous.

ditto. +1 thumbsup

[Brad McGowan]

I don't know about most folks, but I'm not too keen on clients that can neither write songs nor play well.

I have a very 70's tape deck, use preamps designed or inspired by 70's designs (API, Pacifica) and have never once made a recording that sounds 70's. I just don't know how to do it. My tape recordings sound pretty modern and clean...I think. I think certain "retro" production styles are something that are either part of your musical vocabulary or they aren't. So I hate to agree with Bill on this one, but I think Daptone would still turn out very retro sounding recordings even if forced to record to PT. I'm sure they would certainly hate the process and be cussing the whole time, but it would still have a vibe in the ballpark. It wouldn't be exactly the same sonics they get with tape, but it would definitely be more retro sounding than anything I'm ever going to do with a vintage tape deck.

Brad

[drBill]

Originally Posted by jindrich

The only "problem" with this method is that you need people who can write songs and who can actually play, that's all.

Not to mention old skool engineers that have done it that way before, and visionary producers that can hear it in their head - finished before the first note is played or sang. Oh yeah, and arrangers that know how to make a tune. No arranging by mixing with 8 tracks. Then, add the musicians and writers, and off you go.

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by soundrick

I mean, yeah, it's cool, but proclaiming this as a panacea, or a way to "save" the music industry is ridiculous.

Well, to me, it goes like this. With this sort of production method you can get Stevie Wonder, Police, The Smiths, ABBA, Nirvana, Pixies.. in a studio, make a great record and turn teenagers crazy with music that will change their lives.

On the other hand, with DAWs, Autotune and the billion tracks all we got is "Artists" that can neither write songs, nor play instruments nor sing. The only thing they can actually do is smile at the photoshoots. And then record executives scratch their heads wondering why people don't buy records anymore.


For the record, everyone I have played some Daptone record has turned crazy and couldn't get their feet or fingers to stay put.

[TRANQUILO]

I do 8 tracks to 1/2" tape for initial tracking. From taperecorder to protools 8ch input at 96khz/24bit for mixdown. After overdubs in digital format I have more than 8 tracks, maybe up to 48 tracks, who knows. However, I do an 8 buss output from my interface to the 8 track tape machine. From 8 track tape containing the 8 buss program material it outputs to an analog mixing board. Once the its set in the mixing board to desired mix it is slammed into a stereo 1/4" Tape Recorder. From stereo tape to record plant or back into protools for digital masters at 192khz/24bit WAV and MP3 for release.

TAPED LIVE or MULTI-TRACKED track list.
1.Bass Drum
2.Mono Drums Overhead panned left
3.MID/SIDE drums Overhead panned right
4.Bass Guitar
5.Guitar 1 or instrument 1
6.Guitar 2 or instrument 2
7.Keyboards or vocals or room mic left
8.Keyboards or vocals or room mic right

and these are awlays changing around.

HAVE FUN WITH 8!
HAVE TWICE THE FUN WITH 16!

[Lifted]

Back in the day artists were scared of ****ing up, so they were focused even on heavy drugs putting out their best take.

Nowadays it's: "ohhh shit...yeah man...fix it in the mix"

[drBill]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Well, to me, it goes like this. With this sort of production method you can get Stevie Wonder, Police, The Smiths, ABBA, Nirvana, Pixies.. in a studio, make a great record and turn teenagers crazy with music that will change their lives.

I'll tell you what.

How abut you contact each of those artists and/or their producers/engineers and propose that they do their next record/CD/Free download/whatever on analog 8 track. If they agree, I'll sell my PTHD rig and go 8 track. OK? Get back to me on that.



Internet speculation about what kind of recording chain superstars should use based on your opinion is beyond comedy.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

So I hate to agree with Bill on this one,

Heeeeeeeyyyyyy now. Watch it Brad, you're stepping over the line......

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by soundrick

They do a very specific type of music and sound, and the equipment serves that. Hat's off.

What's so revolutionary though?? Seems like a niche to me.

I mean, yeah, it's cool, but proclaiming this as a panacea, or a way to "save" the music industry is ridiculous.

Not everyone wants their record to sound like it came out of the 70s, and there's NOTHING wrong with that either.

It would be nice to see more people on these boards that actually can appreciate modern production as well as "niche", "old school", "hipster" production. Saying one is better than the other is a little short-sighted, not to mention unrealistic.

+ 1000

What the Daptones do is AWESOME!!! Amazing. we need more of it for sure..... but condemning the rest of the music industry and espousing this is a little hard to swallow. I'd like to think i've produced more than a few pretty nifty, musical, dynamic, beautiful records that i really needed WAY more than 8 tracks to pull off. and i've gotten to mix some guilty pleasure pop juggernaut records that had ungodly amounts of tracks but still make me smile every time i hear em.

Man, i do understand the distain for some disposable modern music, but to be so jaded as to hate almost everything current, i feel sorry for the people who cant let their ears open up and just enjoy music. I HATED pop as a kid, now i really like it. and as someone pointed out, i'm sure there was A WHOLE LOT OF CRAP made in the 60's and 70's. We compare everything nowadays to the stuff thats SURVIVED and become classic, but i'm sure there were a whole lot of completely unlistenable records made in those decades too

[jindrich]

BTW, don't forget about the other argument on this thread.

According to the common Gearslutz, you cannot make a pro record without some U47s, 67s, LA2As, Pacificas, PTHDs, Apogees, API 1608, Bricastis, CLA plugins, Neves/clones, a wall of compressors, ...etc etc etc.

And yet these Daptone guys are putting out records that sound BETTER than anybody else these days, with just a small bunch of "old garbage" equipment collection. Or do you publicly state you're using a shure 55 for drums, a Rode NT1 for vocals or Radioshack condensers, and a 40 year old 8-track recorder?

Listen to this and you tell me...

[MC Blind]

Originally Posted by jindrich

BTW, don't forget about the other argument on this thread.

According to the common Gearslutz, you cannot make a pro record without some U47s, 67s, LA2As, Pacificas, PTHDs, Apogees, API 1608, Bricastis, CLA plugins, Neves/clones, a wall of compressors, ...etc etc etc.

And yet these Daptone guys are putting out records that sound BETTER than anybody else these days, with just a small bunch of "old gargabe" equipment collection. Or do you publicly state you're using a shure 55 for drums, a Rode NT1 for vocals or Radioshack condensers, and a 40 year old 8-track recorder?

Listen to this and you tell me...

I just got through listening to that in the HQ mode. Man, even on youtube that blows away the sound of any Pro Tools production I've ever heard. Crazy stuff...

[RoundBadge]

I've been using a Sculley 8 tk 1 inch machine on/off for a few years.for certain things ala Mowntown Stax old blues/rock/r&b/folk.
paired with the right players and material its brilliant.
We've had the Devendra Banhart/Little Joy crew camped out at the studio on/off for a few years doing a lot of the older school Folk Psych rock type stuff w/ analog tape,old springs,plate,ribbons,etc,etc..sounds great.
but they use PT too,doesn't seem to hurt them.

that limited aesthetic[esp the dead dry thing] doesn't always work on everything though.it just doesn't.
try it w/ a big soundtrack type thing with lots of impatient clients on a strict schedule.
.. big heavy rock with strings and choirs on top..tutt
My wife has a bunch of the Daptones stuff on vinyl..Sharon is great & its sonically cool.
musically ain't no Berry Gordy/Hitsville/Smokey/Stevie Wonder/Gaye/Starr situation though

[raal]

Originally Posted by drBill
I can guarantee you that the Daptone engineer could acomplish the same thing with Pro Tools if he wanted to.

Originally Posted by vincentvangogo

How can you guarantee that?
From what I've read the Daptone guys don't think you can get the same distortion, compression etc without tape- why would they use it if they did? Re. more tracks - George Martin said he thought Sgt Pepper would have been worse if they'd had 24 track - but according to you he must lack creative vision. Use what works for you, but you shouldn't assume its right for everyone.

i tend to agree with drBill's statement. the person/s that produced the Daptone project had a very clear picture of what they wanted before they recorded the first note. this is how it was done in the old days before any type of multitracking was even possible. good arrangement, good players and singer/s all at once.

if the Daptone people decided to use 8 tracks within a DAW and use the same micing techniques with the same vision, i'm pretty sure they could achieve maybe not exactly the same results, but something just as satisfactory. there's more than one way to get the head bump/compression/distortion characteristics, but if they like what they're getting, why try to emulate that some other way? i can certainly understand that, but anyway i think it ain't the car as much as the driver; because they didn't use a U47 or a Bricasti on this stuff it doesn't mean they couldn't get good results with them.

i do think if they were told they had to make a record with U47s, Bricastis and a DAW they could surely figure it out.

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Man, i do understand the distain for some disposable modern music, but to be so jaded as to hate almost everything current, i feel sorry for the people who cant let their ears open up and just enjoy music. I HATED pop as a kid, now i really like it. and as someone pointed out, i'm sure there was A WHOLE LOT OF CRAP made in the 60's and 70's. We compare everything nowadays to the stuff thats SURVIVED and become classic, but i'm sure there were a whole lot of completely unlistenable records made in those decades too

+1. 'bubblegum music' i guess would have been the equivalent to what's considered pop these days, but since people like the Beatles were also considered pop back then i can't say i hated all pop music - but i did break out in hives with some stuff that as you aptly put it, didn't survive, just as most current music won't; but there is some pretty amazing stuff being done without a tape recorder these days, at least IMO.

[robertbonello]

we're obviously not talking about making a kanye or def leppard song here, but when the music/situation allows, the psychological effect of working to 8 tracks definitely can't be underestimated mereckons.

there's something about getting everyone involved(musicians and recordists) zoned into that special place - the stuff which causes the hair on the back of your arm to stand up - that comes when you're either going direct to 2 track, or printing a band playing live to 8 track. I've never honest-to-god managed to get a rhythm section to really lock and melt my spine when we're playing lego in protools. not saying it can't be done, but that's definitely my impression and limited experience

obviously this wouldn't be possible for the next jonas brothers or beyonce record, but just imagine what dylan's last two albums (not counting that xmas one..) would be like if they were done in that daptone way.

Give me a GREAT band and a GREAT song and a boom box to record them on, over semicompetents with beat detective any day. I don't mind my recordings crummy if the music is sublime.

Also, there's a lot to be said about happy accidents and their effect on the rest of the process. It's in the printing effect vein, if you've got it good with the guitar's pedals, have the finished sound coming out of the amp, record it well, and it'll have a knock-on effect(pardon the pun) to the rest of your recording and mixing choices.

I guess the daptone "scene" - the pool of talent or scene those guys have gathered around them - are a much greater resource than the gear they're working with, or the methods they're using.

Also.. there's something to be said about the recordist's performance in this regard. Having a room full of people warming up, and having 10 minutes to get your sounds and balances before you start to lose them makes the recordist perform a hell of a lot more than if he's got a month to pick a mic for a guitar overdub. A vibed singer would give you infinitely better results than one who isn't, isn't this also true for the guy behind the desk?

[nobtwiddler]

Years ago (about 15) I received the 1 inch 8 track masters for the Stones sessions at Muscle Shoals Studios.
On those tapes, were the three songs they cut in that one day session back in 69.
Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move

After listening to those tapes for a while, and realizing that all you really needed was 8 tracks, I dove in head first.
Sonically it can sound the same as any massive multitrack production, but what it does is limit the endless possibilities, it requires everyone in the room make decisions at that moment!
No printing 30 guitar solos, vocals or whatever, and leaving it till mix to decide which one to use.
This in my opinion is a good thing.
You know what you have immediately.

Plus as mentioned before, everyone steps up their game.

From that day on, any productions where I am the producer, and the band is capable of performing as a unit, we cut to 8 tracks.
It really leaves the energy, emotion & soul intact when recording this way.

Originally I used an MCI JH-110C for this type of recording, but recently I switched over to digital using the 8 ins/outs of a Metric Halo UNL-8, only to make things more portable, as I have now taken this concept on the road where I record bands / artists in whatever intimate locations, instead of just my studio.
Loads of vibe.
Very much like the Stones / Ronnie Lane Mobile did years ago.
Some of my favorite records were cut using either of these two mobile units.

Here's a older photo of my portable / remote set up, before the two racks were totally done...

[JQ127]

Originally Posted by nobtwiddler

Years ago (about 15) I received the 1 inch 8 track masters for the Stones sessions at Muscle Shoals Studios.
On those tapes, were the three songs they cut in that one day session back in 69.
Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move

After listening to those tapes for a while, and realizing that all you really needed was 8 tracks, I dove in head first.
Sonically it can sound the same as any massive multitrack production, but what it does is limit the endless possibilities, it requires everyone in the room make decisions at that moment!
No printing 30 guitar solos, vocals or whatever, and leaving it till mix to decide which one to use.
This in my opinion is a good thing.
You know what you have immediately.

Plus as mentioned before, everyone steps up their game.

From that day on, any productions where I am the producer, and the band is capable of performing as a unit, we cut to 8 tracks.
It really leaves the energy, emotion & soul intact when recording this way.

Originally I used an MCI JH-110C for this type of recording, but recently I switched over to digital using the 8 ins/outs of a Metric Halo UNL-8, only to make things more portable, as I have now taken this concept on the road where I record bands / artists in whatever intimate locations, instead of just my studio.
Loads of vibe.
Very much like the Stones / Ronnie Lane Mobile did years ago.
Some of my favorite records were cut using either of these two mobile units.

Here's a older photo of my portable / remote set up, before the two racks were totally done...

That's pretty cool Paul. I worked with Jimmy Miller a few times in Boston (he wasn't at the top of his game)(neither was I) and he said he did a lot of stuff with them that was just 8 tracks. Unreal. Thanks for posting this-it must have been a thrill to listen to those songs on the 1" tape!! Also really cool you're still doing the 8 tracks digital.

[Silvertone]

I sold my 1" 8 track 4 years ago... it was the one piece of equipment that stayed with me for the longest of any and was my personnel writing machine. I always say less is more even in production. Everybody loved that machine for the reason that Paulie states above... it forces you to make decisions!

Since then I switched to Logic with 16 channels of Aurora converters, I still get as fat a sound and like having the options of a few more tracks (even though I can have many many more if I want... I limit myself to 15 tracks as it's what my console has and I still like to mix through an analog board.

If you have the right equipment in front and the right equipment behind, you really don't need the 1" 8 track really. It's more about the skill set of the engineer.

In as much as I love that 8 track set up, it really needs to be transferred to digital as soon as possible or the sound starts to change... especially the high end.

Daptones do killer work! Power to them for showing some people an alternative way of doing things! I try to do the same thing myself.

[Pchicago]

Originally Posted by u b k

I've been doing this for a few months now, I can't say enough good things about it.

No fx, no comping, no autotune, no digital besides final peak limiting. 1/2" 8-track, 8 channel little desk, mix to Studer.

Behold, 8 tracks of love!

Sneaky Little Devil - Who Says This is Love


Gregory Scott - ubk

Hey man, UBK,

Digging this thing you posted, nice job.

Also digging the shit out of this thread, I love this Daptone thing. Thinking about driving to Philly to see them end of this month...

[clearwave]

I just tracked a band that is really into that sound (I dig it too). Unfortunately, I got rid of a Ampex 440b 8 track 6 months ago (because I never used it, and I needed the floor space, and it needed repair, and the owner wanted it back).

For economic reasons, I ended up tracking it into a DAW. My theory is 90% of that sound is with the players/arrangements. I used minimal mics, recorded the band live in the studio and pushed for the right take.

I think I captured the band accurately, now it's on my shoulders to mix this thing. I haven't decided how I'm gonna approach this but I'm sure tape and my spring reverb will be involved. I like the challenge...

[soundbarnfool]

OK, so if anyone wants to come to Nashville and have a wonderful 8 track recording experience, I have been doing this (and location sound) exclusively for over ten years.


Inglewood SoundBarn

[soundbarnfool]

Originally Posted by nobtwiddler

Years ago (about 15) I received the 1 inch 8 track masters for the Stones sessions at Muscle Shoals Studios.
On those tapes, were the three songs they cut in that one day session back in 69.
Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move

After listening to those tapes for a while, and realizing that all you really needed was 8 tracks, I dove in head first.
Sonically it can sound the same as any massive multitrack production, but what it does is limit the endless possibilities, it requires everyone in the room make decisions at that moment!
No printing 30 guitar solos, vocals or whatever, and leaving it till mix to decide which one to use.
This in my opinion is a good thing.
You know what you have immediately.

Plus as mentioned before, everyone steps up their game.

From that day on, any productions where I am the producer, and the band is capable of performing as a unit, we cut to 8 tracks.
It really leaves the energy, emotion & soul intact when recording this way.

Originally I used an MCI JH-110C for this type of recording, but recently I switched over to digital using the 8 ins/outs of a Metric Halo UNL-8, only to make things more portable, as I have now taken this concept on the road where I record bands / artists in whatever intimate locations, instead of just my studio.
Loads of vibe.
Very much like the Stones / Ronnie Lane Mobile did years ago.
Some of my favorite records were cut using either of these two mobile units.

Here's a older photo of my portable / remote set up, before the two racks were totally done...

Right on. I would add that sonically, 8 track one inch can actually sound better than other tape formats because there is less possibility of azimuth phase goofiness with the heads. Theoretically, anyway...

And I don't think anyone here is knocking other formats... Although I am proud to say that I have never learned protools and don't plan to.

Inglewood SoundBarn

[themaidsroom]

i recorded the dap kings here a few years ago.
they played great and had fun.
easy. enjoyable session.
(i think we used 16 track)




be well


- jack

[Plush]

Wonderful music! Totally Pro!

Using their brains and talent to make a recoid.