Just 8 Tracks, 1", tape. Are you brave enough? (DAPTONE)

[MC Blind]

I wonder if there where any engineers or studios that stuck to their guns and or ears and never bought into the digital hype? If they have been recording for the last 30 years they've probably saved a ton of money and probably have been putting out quality product that will stand the test of time.

Good point on archiving the mix to tape. If properly stored from what I understand tape will last much longer than any cd, dvd or hard drive that I know of.

[Paul_G]

i'm brave enough but not stupid enough.
i can't believe this thread is still going.

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by Paul_G

i'm brave enough but not stupid enough.
i can't believe this thread is still going.

Paul,

you don't have a band, your music is made in a lab. Daptone's methods don't apply to you, but they do fit perfectly music from people as diverse as,

Frank Sinatra, Pixies, The Doors, Stevie Wonder, Smiths, Franz Ferdinand, Rod Stewart, Nirvana, Marvin Gaye, Joao Gilberto, Queen, Emiliana Torrini, Lou Reed, Louis Armstrong, Led Zeppelin, Police, RATM, Sharon Jones, Terence Trent D'arby ....and a thousand others.

Jack Johnson has made his last record with a Studer multitrack, for the first time away from a DAW, and he's found it "liberating", and this is a quote.

Having *just* an 8-16 track tape recorder, a desk, some outboard and mics into a big live room, rather than being 'limiting' actually frees the band from the boundaries of a grid, fixed tempos, visual editing, copy and paste, autotune,... and thousands of hours spent trying to fix in the Tetris-DAW takes/tracks that should have been discarded from the beginning.

It also makes the band to build the song in their heads rather than in the screen.

A DAW could be used just like a tape machine, yes, but nobody does it because the temptation is just too strong, and the result is that DAWs have stolen personality and emotion in music.

Listen to the last decade (noughties) and compare it to anything made in any other decade, back to the 50's. Can you say flatness, soul-less, same-ness?

[JP11]

Originally Posted by jindrich

A DAW could be used just like a tape machine, yes, but nobody does it because the temptation is just too strong, and the result is that DAWs have stolen personality and emotion in music.

People do it...

maybe as much as people on tape do only complete live recordings with no punches or overdubs or edits or splices or FX or any of the myriad of tricks that came long before DAWs that people who use tape can't resist...

but people do it...

[DJamesGoody]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

Speaking of "fabricating parts" that phrase is a little revealing of analog experience as most of the real deal stuff has spare parts.

I guess my joke wasn't obvious....... sorry.

[MC Blind]

I just wanted to post this here. John has become sort of a hero to me. His story is kind of like David and Goliath; the little talented guy making better gear than the huge corporations, pretty cool stuff in my book...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




John Stephens, 1930-2007



Recording innovator John Stephens, founder of Stephens Electronics, died on August 6, at age 76, after a long bout with dementia. Born in Cleveland, Stephens was raised in Burbank, Calif., where he developed an early interest in electronics, learning from his father, an aeronautics engineer and avid amateur radio buff who later became Pacific Director of the FAA. In the post-war era, Stephens joined the Navy, continuing his electronics education and—in an era when RF mic systems were almost non-existent—he developed wireless microphone systems for troop entertainment.

After his Navy stint, Stephens worked for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where he was engaged in ways of employing the new-found transistor technology. As the first commercial 8-tracks came to market, Stephens developed and sold improved record amplifiers and later bought transports from 3M, marketing them with his own electronics. Evidently perturbed about some outsider's designs outperforming its stock recorders, 3M stopped selling transports to Stephens, who then began building his own decks.

The portable 24-track—a Stephens innovation.

Even from the start, Stephens recorders combined excellent electronics, superb heads, a rigid 1-inch-thick deck plate and an innovative, highly accurate transport that was extremely gentle on tape. First unveiled by Stephens in 1971, the unique capstanless/pinch rollerless system required only two motors (supply and take-up), with a clever rotating idler that "chopped" the output of an LED into pulses that were compared to a crystal-locked time base for rock-solid servo transport motor control. (For an explanation of the Stephens transport system, click here.)

Offering a modular construction that made servicing simpler (and allowed the creation of custom portable decks housed in roadcases), the Stephens machines also featured an optional battery supply that operated a deck for up to 16 hours from two car batteries. These were employed on countless live music and location film recordings, including classics such as Robert Altman's Nashville.

The Stephens transport was simplicity defined.

At most, Stephens only made a few hundred decks, ranging from ½-inch 2-track machines to 2-inch 40-tracks—another first—and a couple of custom consoles. Stephens was never much on self-promotion, but searching through some of the company's sales documentation and records revealed an impressive client list. Among his recorder customers were Hollywood Sound Recording, A&R Recording, A&M Recording, Ike & Tina Turner, The Village Recorder, Margaritaville, Enactron, Lions Gate Films, Pioneer Japan, Cornerstone Recording, NBC, UCLA, Spectrum Studios, Wayne Cook, Mark Lindsay, Roy Thomas Baker, Atlantic Sound, The Grateful Dead, Criterion Productions, John Farrar, Effanel, American Zoetrope, Secret Sound, Paramount and Circle Sound—among many others. A good number of these machines remain in service today and are still considered by many to be among the finest sounding recorders ever built.

In an era when so much recording gear is built by large corporations, a pioneer and innovator such as John Stephens was truly a one of a kind. His legacy lives on in the tools he built and the multitude of great recordings made on these machines. He will not be forgotten.

John Stephens, 1930-2007 | Recording Innovator John Stephens, Founder of Stephens Electronics

[superburtm]

what these guys are doing is an act of minimalism..I am a fan of that lifestyle as well..it tends to allow focus on what matters

[Paul_G]

Dude, I don't miss your point, I just don't agree with you.

There has been lots of great music made in the last 10 years, just not necessarily in the mainstream.
Going backwards will not solve today's quality control issues. It's pop culture in general that has no soul, not the technology or the operators.

Originally Posted by jindrich

Paul,

you don't have a band, your music is made in a lab. Daptone's methods don't apply to you, but they do fit perfectly music from people as diverse as,

Frank Sinatra, Pixies, The Doors, Stevie Wonder, Smiths, Franz Ferdinand, Rod Stewart, Nirvana, Marvin Gaye, Joao Gilberto, Queen, Emiliana Torrini, Lou Reed, Louis Armstrong, Led Zeppelin, Police, RATM, Sharon Jones, Terence Trent D'arby ....and a thousand others.

Jack Johnson has made his last record with a Studer multitrack, for the first time away from a DAW, and he's found it "liberating", and this is a quote.

Having *just* an 8-16 track tape recorder, a desk, some outboard and mics into a big live room, rather than being 'limiting' actually frees the band from the boundaries of a grid, fixed tempos, visual editing, copy and paste, autotune,... and thousands of hours spent trying to fix in the Tetris-DAW takes/tracks that should have been discarded from the beginning.

It also makes the band to build the song in their heads rather than in the screen.

A DAW could be used just like a tape machine, yes, but nobody does it because the temptation is just too strong, and the result is that DAWs have stolen personality and emotion in music.

Listen to the last decade (noughties) and compare it to anything made in any other decade, back to the 50's. Can you say flatness, soul-less, same-ness?

[Toro]

Originally Posted by Paul_G

Dude, I don't miss your point, I just don't agree with you.

There has been lots of great music made in the last 10 years, just not necessarily in the mainstream.
Going backwards will not solve today's quality control issues. It's pop culture in general that has no soul, not the technology or the operators.

Pra PRA stike pra tata tat tatata PRAAAA stikestike pra pra tatatata ta ta t tt t t stike

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

I just wanted to post this here. John has become sort of a hero to me. His story is kind of like David and Goliath; the little talented guy making better gear than the huge corporations, pretty cool stuff in my book...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




John Stephens, 1930-2007



Recording innovator John Stephens, founder of Stephens Electronics, died on August 6, at age 76, after a long bout with dementia. Born in Cleveland, Stephens was raised in Burbank, Calif., where he developed an early interest in electronics, learning from his father, an aeronautics engineer and avid amateur radio buff who later became Pacific Director of the FAA. In the post-war era, Stephens joined the Navy, continuing his electronics education and—in an era when RF mic systems were almost non-existent—he developed wireless microphone systems for troop entertainment.

After his Navy stint, Stephens worked for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where he was engaged in ways of employing the new-found transistor technology. As the first commercial 8-tracks came to market, Stephens developed and sold improved record amplifiers and later bought transports from 3M, marketing them with his own electronics. Evidently perturbed about some outsider's designs outperforming its stock recorders, 3M stopped selling transports to Stephens, who then began building his own decks.

The portable 24-track—a Stephens innovation.

Even from the start, Stephens recorders combined excellent electronics, superb heads, a rigid 1-inch-thick deck plate and an innovative, highly accurate transport that was extremely gentle on tape. First unveiled by Stephens in 1971, the unique capstanless/pinch rollerless system required only two motors (supply and take-up), with a clever rotating idler that "chopped" the output of an LED into pulses that were compared to a crystal-locked time base for rock-solid servo transport motor control. (For an explanation of the Stephens transport system, click here.)

Offering a modular construction that made servicing simpler (and allowed the creation of custom portable decks housed in roadcases), the Stephens machines also featured an optional battery supply that operated a deck for up to 16 hours from two car batteries. These were employed on countless live music and location film recordings, including classics such as Robert Altman's Nashville.

The Stephens transport was simplicity defined.

At most, Stephens only made a few hundred decks, ranging from ½-inch 2-track machines to 2-inch 40-tracks—another first—and a couple of custom consoles. Stephens was never much on self-promotion, but searching through some of the company's sales documentation and records revealed an impressive client list. Among his recorder customers were Hollywood Sound Recording, A&R Recording, A&M Recording, Ike & Tina Turner, The Village Recorder, Margaritaville, Enactron, Lions Gate Films, Pioneer Japan, Cornerstone Recording, NBC, UCLA, Spectrum Studios, Wayne Cook, Mark Lindsay, Roy Thomas Baker, Atlantic Sound, The Grateful Dead, Criterion Productions, John Farrar, Effanel, American Zoetrope, Secret Sound, Paramount and Circle Sound—among many others. A good number of these machines remain in service today and are still considered by many to be among the finest sounding recorders ever built.

In an era when so much recording gear is built by large corporations, a pioneer and innovator such as John Stephens was truly a one of a kind. His legacy lives on in the tools he built and the multitude of great recordings made on these machines. He will not be forgotten.

John Stephens, 1930-2007 | Recording Innovator John Stephens, Founder of Stephens Electronics

A friend of mine bought all of Johns machines a few months before he passed away. I think about twelve machines in total with all the spare parts John had. He has two of those suitcase multi-tracks machines, both two inch with 16 track head stacks on them.

He offered to sell me one and I've been debating it for some time now but I think I may just have to pull the trigger on one!

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

I wonder if there where any engineers or studios that stuck to their guns and or ears and never bought into the digital hype? ...

You need to put it in context. The way our hearing works is that the brain always directs our attention. Not having to fight tape hiss and saturation distortion was very alluring. It was easy to ignore what digital was doing wrong because we loved what it was doing right. The early machines like the Mitsubishi and 3M also had much better sounding line stages than the ADAT-grade stuff.

The problem came when folks went back to analog due to various reasons and realized what had been lost.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Paul_G

...There has been lots of great music made in the last 10 years, just not necessarily in the mainstream...

Absolutely. The question everybody needs to ask is how come most of the stuff making it into the mainstream is so lacking?

[Hardtoe]

Big business? Music being made for profit instead of art? The manufacturing of talent? Music companies being run by regular businessmen and not music specialists? The forcing out of the old guard who actually developed talent instead of looking for a quick buck?

I place this solely on the corporatization of the big music biz - corporations have no soul (despite having "rights") thus they produce music with no soul - no big suprise, there is tons of corporate crap everywhere at this point in history. This is why Daptone is so refreshing - they are all about keeping it real and talented.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

...I place this solely on the corporatization of the big music biz ...

While I realize there are lots of hurt feelings over rejection by record labels, that isn't really the problem. The problem is the corporatization of music exposure. If record labels had any power over that, I can assure you that the music would be lots better because nobody's willing to pay for most of what is getting exposed.

This is way off topic so I'm not going to post anything more about the subject here.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Toro

Pra PRA stike pra tata tat tatata PRAAAA stikestike pra pra tatatata ta ta t tt t t stike

I dont get it. speaky englishy?

[Toro]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I dont get it. speaky englishy?

Pra stikestike praaaaa raaaa ra tata u tat stikestike tat utah ra ta ta tatata u a rat aaara attttt PRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Si hablo ingles espanol italiano y un poquito de frances y tu?

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Absolutely. The question everybody needs to ask is how come most of the stuff making it into the mainstream is so lacking?

because we're ruled by the corporate hive-world. vision is not valued. human interaction is not valued. everything is secondary to the bean counters.

the corporate world does not understand artistic value..... as they say, "I dont know how to put a handle on that."

you cant make pie charts which show artistic content and how it benefits stockholders, or keeps your staff busy working, or.....

the problem runs much deeper and more pervasive than ppl realize.... it has to do with initial assumptions which are hard enough for ppl to see, let alone change

[ofajen]

To respond to the original post; yes, though out of habit and preference, not bravery, I pretty much track to an 8-track machine. I'm still tracking and mixing almost exclusively on tape. I used to use an M-56 1" 8 track. These days, by a curious coincidence, I even happen to use two of the same machines that the folks at Daptone appear to use: I'm tracking mostly on a little Otari 1/2" 8 track and mixing to a 3M M-23 1/4" machine. I've been mainly working with 8 tracks on tape since about 1985 or so, IIRC.

Cheers,

Otto

[Toro]

Originally Posted by ofajen

To respond to the original post; yes, though out of habit and preference, not bravery, I pretty much track to an 8-track machine. I'm still tracking and mixing almost exclusively on tape. I used to use an M-56 1" 8 track. These days, by a curious coincidence, I even happen to use two of the same machines that the folks at Daptone appear to use: I'm tracking mostly on a little Otari 1/2" 8 track and mixing to a 3M M-23 1/4" machine. I've been mainly working with 8 tracks on tape since about 1985 or so, IIRC.

Cheers,

Otto

Care to shows us some of your work? Pra !! stike

[MC Blind]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

Big business? Music being made for profit instead of art? The manufacturing of talent? Music companies being run by regular businessmen and not music specialists? The forcing out of the old guard who actually developed talent instead of looking for a quick buck?

I place this solely on the corporatization of the big music biz - corporations have no soul (despite having "rights") thus they produce music with no soul - no big surprise, there is tons of corporate crap everywhere at this point in history. This is why Daptone is so refreshing - they are all about keeping it real and talented.

I agree with pretty much all of your points. I personally think that's spot on. Without patience and developing talent, new music is very cookie cuter and has lost a lot of the creativity in the main stream. Most of my favorite bands from the 80s didn't start out strong but developed into great artists. These days they don't give you a chance to develop, it is run like Wal Mart or something like that, you get the point hopefully...

[vernier]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

I just wanted to post this here. John has become sort of a hero to me. His story is kind of like David and Goliath; the little talented guy making better gear than the huge corporations, pretty cool stuff in my book...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




John Stephens, 1930-2007



Recording innovator John Stephens, founder of Stephens Electronics, died on August 6, at age 76, after a long bout with dementia. Born in Cleveland, Stephens was raised in Burbank, Calif., where he developed an early interest in electronics, learning from his father, an aeronautics engineer and avid amateur radio buff who later became Pacific Director of the FAA. In the post-war era, Stephens joined the Navy, continuing his electronics education and—in an era when RF mic systems were almost non-existent—he developed wireless microphone systems for troop entertainment.

After his Navy stint, Stephens worked for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where he was engaged in ways of employing the new-found transistor technology. As the first commercial 8-tracks came to market, Stephens developed and sold improved record amplifiers and later bought transports from 3M, marketing them with his own electronics. Evidently perturbed about some outsider's designs outperforming its stock recorders, 3M stopped selling transports to Stephens, who then began building his own decks.

The portable 24-track—a Stephens innovation.

Even from the start, Stephens recorders combined excellent electronics, superb heads, a rigid 1-inch-thick deck plate and an innovative, highly accurate transport that was extremely gentle on tape. First unveiled by Stephens in 1971, the unique capstanless/pinch rollerless system required only two motors (supply and take-up), with a clever rotating idler that "chopped" the output of an LED into pulses that were compared to a crystal-locked time base for rock-solid servo transport motor control. (For an explanation of the Stephens transport system, click here.)

Offering a modular construction that made servicing simpler (and allowed the creation of custom portable decks housed in roadcases), the Stephens machines also featured an optional battery supply that operated a deck for up to 16 hours from two car batteries. These were employed on countless live music and location film recordings, including classics such as Robert Altman's Nashville.

The Stephens transport was simplicity defined.

At most, Stephens only made a few hundred decks, ranging from ½-inch 2-track machines to 2-inch 40-tracks—another first—and a couple of custom consoles. Stephens was never much on self-promotion, but searching through some of the company's sales documentation and records revealed an impressive client list. Among his recorder customers were Hollywood Sound Recording, A&R Recording, A&M Recording, Ike & Tina Turner, The Village Recorder, Margaritaville, Enactron, Lions Gate Films, Pioneer Japan, Cornerstone Recording, NBC, UCLA, Spectrum Studios, Wayne Cook, Mark Lindsay, Roy Thomas Baker, Atlantic Sound, The Grateful Dead, Criterion Productions, John Farrar, Effanel, American Zoetrope, Secret Sound, Paramount and Circle Sound—among many others. A good number of these machines remain in service today and are still considered by many to be among the finest sounding recorders ever built.

In an era when so much recording gear is built by large corporations, a pioneer and innovator such as John Stephens was truly a one of a kind. His legacy lives on in the tools he built and the multitude of great recordings made on these machines. He will not be forgotten.

John Stephens, 1930-2007 | Recording Innovator John Stephens, Founder of Stephens Electronics

Yep, John Stephens = total genius. Best sound and small size ..how'd he do it?!

Btw, I saw RTB's 40 ..its portable like the pic above.

[Dave_Amels]

Originally Posted by vernier

Yep, John Stephens = total genius. Best sound and small size ..how'd he do it?!

Btw, I saw RTB's 40 ..its portable like the pic above.

Simplicity... the whole point of this thread. The more crap you put in the way of the audio... the worse it becomes.

[MC Blind]

Originally Posted by vernier

Yep, John Stephens = total genius. Best sound and small size ..how'd he do it?!

Yea, he was a rocket scientist.

I want to record an album in a studio that has Stephens, 8048 Neve desk (Flying faders), 140 EMT plate and a really nice echo chamber among other analog goodies.

[Dave_Amels]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

Yea, he was a rocket scientist.

I want to record an album in a studio that has Stephens, 8048 Neve desk (Flying faders), 140 EMT plate and a really nice echo chamber among other analog goodies.

You could do better without the Neve... Talk about group delay...

[Dave_Amels]

Back at Daptone today: Yfrog - woqx - Uploaded by b3organ

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Dave_Amels

You could do better without the Neve... Talk about group delay...

this is the kind of thing that makes me wanna toss the opinion of techs in the trash.... i mean, it's not like there are no great records made on Neve desks....

who cares how the desk measures if it sounds great?

this is tossing the baby out with the bathwater IMO

[Dave_Amels]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

this is the kind of thing that makes me wanna toss the opinion of techs in the trash.... i mean, it's not like there are no great records made on Neve desks....

who cares how the desk measures if it sounds great?

this is tossing the baby out with the bathwater IMO

Don't like the way they sound. You'd do well to compare it to a desk with less phase shift.

[MC Blind]

Hi Dave, I totally respect your opinion. What desk do you think would pair well with the Stephens? I'm guessing one that has awesome specs but also sounds amazing just like the Stephens.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Dave_Amels

Don't like the way they sound. You'd do well to compare it to a desk with less phase shift.

but can i get all the harmonics and saturation i want from iron without the phase shift?

i'm not technically proficient enough to say yes or no... but i do know how to use a Neve desk to make me smile.

is it possible to design a desk which gives me all of the good and none of the bad?

i just assumed it was "pick your poison"... but that's probably too simple

[Dave_Amels]

Originally Posted by MC Blind

Hi Dave, I totally respect your opinion. What desk do you think would pair well with the Stephens? I'm guessing one that has awesome specs but also sounds amazing just like the Stephens.

Helios