The smallest high end mixer (with aux and direct outs)

[glava]

Get an Studer before the go up in price!
3000€ for a Studer 169 is without any competition the best sounding, features,
and quality wise mixer you can get.

8 discrete trafo balanced micamps killer sound
10ch of summing and great Eq´s
2 Limiters
2 Aux
talkback and headphone amp

[Mojo Man]

Originally Posted by RonT

Sounds like the API 8200A.

8 channels of everything you need plus a little!

+1. The Studer is also great.
--
Wheels

[trashman]

His needs were CLEARLY stated:

3/4 Tracks - no preamps needed (good preamps get connected before) with Level faders/potis
1 Aux Send, Stereo Return bus (for effects, need to be routed to headphone mix)
>=1 Direct Out(s) (minimal 1, usually 3/4)
1 Stereo Master Out
1 Headphone Out

We need to have a thread dedicated to what this fellow slut is talking about because the need is out there for this type of device!

I give credit to gearslutz for inspiring SSL to make the xdesk. SSL saw the discussion and responded with a great product. We need yet ANOTHER product that is slightly different ... basically a more complex monitoring device .... and I have wondered whether the spl monitoring system might work. But all of the answers so far have been modifications or innovative applications or simply "over buying features" because no such device exists.

I am hoping that SSL will perhaps come up with a more interesting Xrack module with direct aux sends ... MANY AUX SENDS ... this would be very cool indeed. The aux sends could be direct out on the back via dsub and can be returned on an 8 channel module or the "aux input" on the master module... or not! The aux send module could offer 2 mono channels with a few aux sends each and one stereo return channel for blending.... or not. (Depends upon what you're doing with those aux's).

Anyway, c'mon SSL!!! You can do it!!!! Create this module (along with the filters) and the xrack will really be brought up a notch.

[gollumsluvslave]

OP, what audio interface have you got?

How many ins and outs?
How many DAW tracks are you recording simultaneously max?

Reiterating what I said in a previous post, a decent patchbay and a separate 'cue' mixer is all you need here IMO, IF you don't need to submix more than 2 signals to a stereo pair.

Spending a decent amount of time designing your patchbay around all the things you need in your workflow can be a game-changer.

If you need to submix, there's not a lot that gives you everything other than the X-Desk which is overkill and likely not as portable as you want - however it's cheaper than the API 8200 and A LOT more flexible.

It is really strange that there aren't more products that hit this niche!

[RonT]

I still say API 8200A and just add the HP amp and be done with it! The XDesk will give you more options and more inputs but by the time you get done buying all the cables and crap to hook it up you might as well get the Midas board which will give you pres and eqs!

Arrrrrrrrrg I love this stuff!!!!!

[gollumsluvslave]

I still say API 8200A and just add the HP amp and be done with it!

How would the 8200A get the send returns to the headphone amp though with a proper mix level?

You would still need ANOTHER mixer to deal with send returns unless I'm missing something - the 8200A does not have a separate 'cue' buss, so it really doesn't seem very well suited for what the OP needs.

[trashman]

I looooove the api 8200 too. I still use an api 2500 mix bus (when it's working properly .. see other threads) I used the 8200a with an 8200 for quite some time .... for monitoring I shot the outputs into an ssl mynx system (that I picked up on the cheap when the GBP tanked vis a vis the USD last spring). This entire rig cost me $3500 used/new.

The problem is your mixes are only as good as your monitoring. If your room sucks, speakers suck and monitoring sonics suck then your mixes will suffer. Using a cheapo monitoring solution is like driving a ferrari on $30 tread. It will work ... sorta. You'll be missing all sorts of information with poor monitoring.

He wants a very small, portable setup. The Venice desks (yet another that I currently own, use and love) have got to be too big for his needs. He needs something small, without! (my typo) a preamp, with an aux send and return.
He basically needs an advanced monitoring device or a device for mixing a 2 bus ... like the Chandler universal mix control with more inputs and outputs.

The Audio Developments mixers look great, although the headroom on the flagship is +23 which is even below an allen and heath mixwizard....my xtramix had +28 which produced some very larger than life sounds. The venice desk is almost to the same level on the clean side and can get ther when pushed ... and the push sounds pretty cool! I digress again.

For small, that meets his needs, the mynx with 4channel mod looks like a winner. although he would be using the rec bus as the aux send and using the aux return for effects return. this would all blend through the master section which feeds NO LESS THAN 4 STEREO bus outputs ... amazing!!!! all with the mix insert in the signal. Just amazing! ssl just did an amazing job with the xrack. the op would get an insert/direct out on each channel, pan and level. the master module has a headphone jack on the front. no eqs, no mic amps ... the stuff all of these other recommendations (other than 8200a which doesn't have the proper monitoring for the OP).

what else is out there? maybe a tonelux rig. and i believe there are a couple of summing modules for the api 500 series. but i'm not sure if they have a headphone amp on the front.

of course all of this was written respectfully. slutz can disagree and be critical without being offensive or offended. i respectfully offer my critique and advice based upon my own similar quest.

[trashman]

Originally Posted by gollumsluvslave

How would the 8200A get the send returns to the headphone amp though with a proper mix level?

You would still need ANOTHER mixer to deal with send returns unless I'm missing something - the 8200A does not have a separate 'cue' buss, so it really doesn't seem very well suited for what the OP needs.

Oh! it does! it has two independent aux sends! it also has direct outs and two stereo bus outs....depending upon how you would cue. his facility seems fairly rudimentary .... 2 track off the daw, 1 line in for his vocal mic, 2 track in off the fx, 1 aux send, headphone amp. I'm not sure the guy is really in need of "cues" for multiple musicians etc.

[trashman]

Originally Posted by MarkyGoldstein

Requirements minimal:

3/4 Tracks - no preamps needed (good preamps get connected before) with Level faders/potis
1 Aux Send, Stereo Return bus (for effects, need to be routed to headphone mix)
>=1 Direct Out(s) (minimal 1, usually 3/4)
1 Stereo Master Out
1 Headphone Out

High end in quality. Price = whatever (obviously small means cost saving, but without loss in quality).

This is used for tracking - as an DAW frontend. The stereo mix goes into track 1+2, the to be recorded signal goes into an external preamp and then into the 1 (2 in case of stereo) free track(s) of the mixer and then directly out into the DAW/Converter.

It's mainly used for recording vocals with zero latency effects on the headphone (and other stuff in mono, maybe with a little larger unit also stereo).

High end for the to be recorded signal. "Weird" solutions such as a high end splitter box and a Behringer mixing desk are also welcome. But no compromise in the recording.

Any suggestions?

Greetings,
Marky

marky,
Do you plan to print the effects or just monitor? I ask because sometimes smaller setup guys just print the fx with the performance.

Someone asked a great question earlier: what converter are you using?

Also, what mic amp are you using? you might be able to use the insert send or aux output (should it have one) on the mic amp to feed an fx processor that you can monitor on your converter...should it have more than 2 inputs.

cheers

[gollumsluvslave]

Trashman,

Oh! it does! it has two independent aux sends! it also has direct outs and two stereo bus outs....depending upon how you would cue. his facility seems fairly rudimentary .... 2 track off the daw, 1 line in for his vocal mic, 2 track in off the fx, 1 aux send, headphone amp. I'm not sure the guy is really in need of "cues" for multiple musicians etc.

But the 8200A only has SENDS yes? it doesn't have send returns which means that the stereo out and the send returns would still need to be mixed somewhere before being sent to the headphone amp no? Or are you assuming that these would just be sent to the DAW for monitoring?

Still seems to me that the 8200A is a lot of dough for something that doesn't really tick all the boxes (see below), not to mention needing a DB25 cable for Send outputs...

Do you plan to print the effects or just monitor? I ask because sometimes smaller setup guys just print the fx with the performance.

Someone asked a great question earlier: what converter are you using?

Also, what mic amp are you using? you might be able to use the insert send or aux output (should it have one) on the mic amp to feed an fx processor that you can monitor on your converter...should it have more than 2 inputs.

Yup, very important questions - if the monitoring / cue requirements are not too complex (as you suggested above) then a decent patchbay and enough interface ins/outs is all that is needed, assuming the interface has it's own mixer software (e.g. RME Total Mix, even my Edirol UA-1000 is great for zero-latency monitoring simply using the interface ins and outs). (basically 4 ins and 4 outs should be sufficient, any more is bonus)

For more complex cue mixes I simply send patchbay mults to a shitty little behringer mixer (UB602 i think) which then feeds a headphone amp (behringer as well HA4700) - it's simply for cue mixing so sound isn't THAT important and it does a good enough job.

The big question that the OP still needs to clarify is whether he needs to submix - if he does then the patchbay/monitor mixer solution falls apart.

[trashman]

8200a
He'd bring the fx back in on channels 7 and 8 for monitoring and use the direct outs on the the tracking channel to send to the DAW.

I agree. The 8200a is missing some critical monitoring aspects. It needs to hit a monitoring solution. and for the money ($2500 new) it is quite pricey.
Used these can be had for $1500 and this isn't so bad ... but he'd still need to shell out for monitoring.

I would NOT recommend hitting a shitty mixer for monitoring...he's not going to hear what is truly going on. Room treatment, speakers, monitoring sonics, converters.

The micro'est and least expensive route is to pick up an ssk mynx system. It has all the facilities that he needs, plus SSL sonics are stellar.

Should be well under $2k for everything including cables....if he looks around a bit.

[MarkyGoldstein]

I am currently investigating "build it yourself" solutions

A) "High end":
- y-audio-split cable(s)
- Splitters (active, passive, don't know exactly)
This will provide the direct outs, splitting the recording signal in very high quality to send it to the converters or mic pre (I am still think how exactly and in which order).
I ordered an "Active Splitter" (RADIAL ENGINEERING JS 2) for research.

B) Level control(s): to control how much of the signal goes into the FX device (Lexicon PCM 96)
I will order a A Designs ATTY 2'D Passive Audio Line Level Control for research.

C) dirt cheap summing for the monitoring on the headphones
- Behringer Style 6 channels with headphone output: this will mix the splitted "recording" representation signals (1 in case of mono, 2 in case of stereo), the fx return signals (2) and the DAW output (2) and bring it to the head phones.
I have ordered a dirt cheap BEHRINGER RX 1202 FX to throw some money out of the window

I did a little bit of research for splitters, mergers, levels controls, y-audio-split cables, etc. and published it here in case you are interested in this:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...YbWQtSVE&hl=en
Many devices, some geared to Guitarist..

I don't fully understand the topic, like the passive vs. active, or y-audio-split cables, levels, quality vs. quality loss, etc. but I will experiment a little... aren't we all learning? I also need this know how for re-amping guitar stuff - so it's not a waste of time. But I am mainly dealing with microphone signals and vocal recording.

Sure, there is a market for SSL, Neve, Aurora, Chandler, API etc. to build a device that brings exactly what is discussed here (the small DAW frontend end mixer for mobile high end engineers living in hotel rooms tracking track by track...). But meanwhile, I will play a bit with splitters, mergers, etc.

(Some info about my studio: my converters are Apogee 16 AD/DA, preamps from DW Fearn, Aurora Audio, SPL, Avalon U5, no mixing desk at all yet, but SPL Summing MixDream, and in a few years I might also Chandler, Neve/Aurora, Tonelux summing to choose for tone during mix down. I will have an independent tracking setup, and a mixing setup. Stable cabling. Hybrid production ITB/OTB). I try to record all signals in best quality. I mostly record track after track, also multi-mic stereo fields, not much band recording currently.)

And I am getting onto the waiting list for an Aurora Audio GTM-822, but that's another story. Sort of the opposite of the spectrum.

Non experimental ways I maybe would prefer the SSL X-Desk and tonelux, but those modular things are also a bit complex to understand... ( anybody here knows which module you would choose to cover the requirements? )

Feedback welcome.

[trashman]

Truly, good luck with all that. ; )

[surflounge]

high quality audio mixers Speck Electronics

[theeverettdale]

I know this is an old thread but this is for other's reference.

I own a 8200a and it's one of the best O/D monitoring solutions when you want it to mix also. The SSL X-Desk also does this well.

The 2 Aux sends (which can be configured pre/post via the internal jumper) of all the channels sum before the output (on the 8200a) so you can run that output directly out to a headphone in via the Aux Output DB25 for a mono zero-latency monitoring option using 1 Aux.

The 8200a is extremely flexible with I/O in a single rackspace.

One way of interfacing the 8200a is:

-(MIC PRE Outs or line outs) into the Balanced Line Inputs (which is multed to the Insert Send Outputs
-DAW outputs (for summing or whatever) into the Balanced Insert Return
- The Balanced Insert Send Outputs to you DAW for Recording
- The AUX Outputs (which contains: Master Left, Right, Solo L, Solo R, and Aux 1, and Aux 2) to your Main Record, Headphone amplifier for the auxes or effects send, to monitor controller... whatever your fancy.
- It also has the additional XLR Left & Right out on the box to go into whatever monitor controller.

This set up allows you to monitor your pre-amps into your DAW via the aux sends ans switch to Insert Returns for your DAW returns on some channels while you over dub or for mixing down.

I use a Little Labs 8810U8R (8 mono or 4 channel stereo attenuator) for my master control room volume before my monitors or as a master fader for the aux sends or solo sends and it works absolutely beautifully without spending a lot more money or even worse... less money on a cheaper monitor controller which smears the sound.

The only thing I personally dislike about the 8200a is the lack of incorporating faders for the input channels. Other than that, it's got loads of features and definitely has the sound of API.

-steve