World class reverb.....

[steins]

Hi,

I know this has been discussed a lot, and believe me, I've read all the posts on the subject. I'm not able to just drive to my local GC and audition hi-end reverbs, so I have a question for you:

I need a good reverb for vocals. My best reverb is currently Reverb One. I'm not interested in reverb plugs; I've listened to them all, and they don't have what I'm looking for. Even the IR reverbs. I don't mind an extra AD/DA-stage, as long as the converters sound good. I'm doing everything from punk to classical, altough country/roots is what I'm doing best, and most. No 5.1 mixing yet, but it would be nice to have the option for future projects. I like natural, "invisible" reverbs.

What do you recommend, and why? Budget is about $5-7000.

Help!

Stein Tore

[gwailoh]

TCE 6000/4000 seems to be the king of "natural" reverb these days. The VSS4 algorithm shared by those two boxes is particularly good at mono point-source stereo localization. The 6000 is about $6500 new in the U.S. and it gets you four engines which can be used simultaneously. The 4000 is about $2000 new in the U.S. for one engine. They both have AES i/o up to 96k, in case you'd rather bypass the converters.

I have a 4000 and my only quarrel with it is that it's maybe a little too natural-sounding. FWIW, "natural" sometimes sounds kinda thin to my ear. I think it might be perfect for sweetening orchestral recordings. For rawk I like to layer different reverbs, making them thicker; this is right for my particular sound. I'll use the 4000 on an ambience setting, add some ReVibe (which I really like, personally) also on ambience, then a deeper hall kinda IR on TL Space. This makes a large BANG which is what I want on certain drum tracks.

The 4000 also has a particularly nice plate emulation, which I believe the 6000 does not have.

Hope this helps.

[minister]

best sounding verb...

QUANTEC YARDSTICK.

hands down.

LOVE the Lex 480 and 960 .. something a little different

the T.C. 6000 & 4000 (verb only) ALMOST as good as it gets.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by minister

best sounding verb...

QUANTEC YARDSTICK.

hands down..

For vocals?

Uh...no.

[robmix]

Well for vocals I would normally suggest a plate, preferably an EMT but the Ecoplate sounds great as well. Actually with your budget you could get one of each and still have money left over for some digital goodness - find a Lexicon 224xl. But . . . . you said natural reverbs - I'd find a used Sony DRE-777.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by minister

FOR VOCALS! yeah, baby! (of course it can depend on style of music, but i stil go here first and tweak a preset and create my own.)

I am not saying it can't be used.

I am just saying that its not the best for vocals.


The secret to great vocal reverbs is a combination of 2 reverbs.


One that does the closer sound and the other does the tails/decays.


You mix the 2 stressing what aspects you want to hear.


I've gotten the best results by using something older and with a signature(for the decays) and something new and clear(for the closer sound).

Also i've posted that i like using outboard delays for the predelays to make the sounds richer.

[Alexi]

Originally Posted by robmix

Well for vocals I would normally suggest a plate, preferably an EMT but the Ecoplate sounds great as well. Actually with your budget you could get one of each and still have money left over for some digital goodness - find a Lexicon 224xl. But . . . . you said natural reverbs - I'd find a used Sony DRE-777.

i think michael brauer said he's using the sony dre verb a lot.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by robmix

Well for vocals I would normally suggest a plate, preferably an EMT but the Ecoplate sounds great as well. Actually with your budget you could get one of each and still have money left over for some digital goodness - find a Lexicon 224xl. But . . . . you said natural reverbs - I'd find a used Sony DRE-777.

I was thinking the same thing. thumbsup

[u b k]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

The secret to great vocal reverbs is a combination of 2 reverbs.

the more i play this game of sound, the more i realize that multiple stages and processes is the key to everything. cascading compressors, multiple bus compressors, fx stacks, serial eq...

lots of things doing a little bit of work, rather than a few things doing a lot of work. the net result is more bigness, more glue everywhere, everything breathes deeper.

good tip on the vocal verb, i now know how i'll be wiling away the hours late tonight. thanks yet again to mr. thrill .


gregoire
del ubik

[robmix]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I am not saying it can't be used.

I am just saying that its not the best for vocals.

The secret to great vocal reverbs is a combination of 2 reverbs.

One that does the closer sound and the other does the tails/decays.

You mix the 2 stressing what aspects you want to hear.

I've gotten the best results by using something older and with a signature(for the decays) and something new and clear(for the closer sound).

Also i've posted that i like using outboard delays for the predelays to make the sounds richer.

Hmm, that's what I do to. A combination of outboard and plug-in delays usually mean I can go a bit lighter on the actual reverbs, which are all outboard for me. And lately I've been making sure everything all the way down to short predelays are in time with the tune.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by minister

hey, that's a nice tip. thanks

do you adjust pre-delays to be somewhat complementary so you can get the 2 to work together?

.

Yeah you have to.

My favorite outboard units for predelays are the Lexicon PCM 42's and AMS 1580.


The Lexicons are probably best for more modern reverbs.

They naturally roll off the hi's and have the built in compression that bites down on certain words when you hit it hard enough.

It smooths and warms up the initial onset of the reverb.

The new clearer stuff(Impulse reverbs or 96K verbs) will begin to have more depth.

If a pair of PCM42's are out of reach i've posted before that a good replacement is a Lexicon 1300S(i own 2 of them).

Its got the guts of a PCM 42 without the modulation and feed back capabilities.

You can also turn the compressor on and off depending on the vocal.

It also works well as a stand alone short ambience reverb when mixed with the H3000 dual H910 preset when you need a more upfront dry vocal with depth.

The AMS 1580 works great as a predelay for the older reverbs(EMT 140 plates and EMT 250).

Makes the vocal nice and present but lush when it tails out.

Sometimes just running audio through with no processing is the ticket when you send it to the reverb.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by robmix

And lately I've been making sure everything all the way down to short predelays are in time with the tune.

Wow.



I tend to set the predelays and most delays by ear these days.

It really depends on the vocal.


I do know that i like long predelays on vocals with certain units and short on others.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by u b i k

the more i play this game of sound, the more i realize that multiple stages and processes is the key to everything. cascading compressors, multiple bus compressors, fx stacks, serial eq...

Now your learning!

And lately I've been making sure everything all the way down to short predelays are in time with the tune.

Takes a min to calcuate it, but it's worth it

When everythings in time it seems to sit better, in the mix and in the song. I think that could be one of the big verb secrets. Setting all the parameters, pre-delay/decay time/etc to be in tempo with the song. Helps a lot with compressors too...


224XL hall's are sic on vocals

So is an EMT 250..but that's a bit out of your range. Might look into a M5000 too....great verbage there.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by djui5

Now your learning!
Takes a min to calcuate it, but it's worth it

When everythings in time it seems to sit better, in the mix and in the song. I think that could be one of the big verb secrets. Setting all the parameters, pre-delay/decay time/etc to be in tempo with the song. Helps a lot with compressors too...


224XL hall's are sic on vocals

So is an EMT 250..but that's a bit out of your range. Might look into a M5000 too....great verbage there.

Yup, that's what I've been thinking. It's subtle but it's there. And I totally agree with the M-5000 rec. I've been using my newly acquired Ecoplate III ( new in the box I might add) with the M-5000 and man is it lush.

[rickrock305]

i personally love the AMS RMX 16 on the ambience setting. It doesn't work on everything, and i don't think i'd call it natural, but its great for adding ambience without being heard.

[robmix]

Also in this price range but hard to find is the EMT 252. The best vocal reverb I've ever heard. There's a song on Quincy Jones' "Q's Jook Joint" that Bruce Swedien mixed called "Slow Jams". The vocals are all EMT 252 and TC M-5000. To me it's a benchmark mix - the vocals are so wide and beautiful. You have to get the first pressing because it was later recalled without Bruce and his gear, and the result was less than fantastic. Actually most of the vocal processing on that record is this combination along with a pair of Roland SDE-3000.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by robmix

Also in this price range but hard to find is the EMT 252. .

If you dig the 252 wait till you try the Dynatron 255.

Its my EMT 250 in a box.

Better than the 252.

Took me sometime to match it with the right converters but now it really rocks.thumbsup

[robmix]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

If you dig the 252 wait till you try the Dynatron 255.

Its my EMT 250 in a box.

Better than the 252.

Took me sometime to match it with the right converters but now it really rocks.thumbsup

I've read about it, and saw Bruce's endorsement. What's the price ? The G Prime site doesn't have a price.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by robmix

lately I've been making sure everything all the way down to short predelays are in time with the tune.

Crazy.

I've been down that road and I didn't always like the results. Now sometimes I'll match delays and decays to the tempo of the song, but sometimes I like hearing them rub a bit...makes 'em stick out a little more as opposed to blending and washing into the mix.

YMMV.

For the poster with $6K in his pocket...I'd think about getting a real plate and a digital box to go with it. So far I haven't come across any simulations that sound exactly like a real well-maintained plate...the smoothness & depth is unreal.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Any combination of the following:

Lexicon 224XL

Lexicon 480L

Sony DRE-777

EMT 140 or 250 thumbsup

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by robmix

I've read about it, and saw Bruce's endorsement. What's the price ? The G Prime site doesn't have a price.

They are not being made anymore.

Only can be found on the used market.

[eyesore]

A nice sounding room.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Crazy.

I've been down that road and I didn't always like the results. Now sometimes I'll match delays and decays to the tempo of the song, but sometimes I like hearing them rub a bit...makes 'em stick out a little more as opposed to blending and washing into the mix.

YMMV.

I totally agree here.

I prefer some randomnization.

It keeps things interesting and much more natural.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

For the poster with $6K in his pocket...I'd think about getting a real plate and a digital box to go with it. So far I haven't come across any simulations that sound exactly like a real well-maintained plate...the smoothness & depth is unreal.

The only problem with having a plate is finding the space for it.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

EMT 140 or 250 thumbsup

A well maintained 250 alone will eat his budget pretty quick.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

A well maintained 250 alone will eat his budget pretty quick.

Yep agreed - IF he can find one.

Hey thrill quick OT - what is the name of that new 1 space Massive Passive that Mannley has some vague link to? The one that has better "air" on the top freq.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by u b i k

the more i play this game of sound, the more i realize that multiple stages and processes is the key to everything. (snip) serial eq...

Totally off-topic, but your mention of "serial EQ" prompted me to chime in.

I've been really getting into parallel EQ, especially for bass guitar: multing the signal & layering unprocessed, lowpass filtered, highpass filtered, and (sometimes) conventionally EQ'd channels ...and, if necessary, time/phase aligning to compensate for any offsets... then mixing their levels to taste.

It really embiggins the bass.

[Tetness]

Not to hijack this post, but what would be the way to go for verbs with a much larger budget.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Tetness

Not to hijack this post, but what would be the way to go for verbs with a much larger budget.

What do you mean with larger budget?

In terms of the production or just budget for buying for the studio in general?

[Tetness]

Just buying for the studio in general. I've been building my studio up this year. It's small, but fairly hi-end. The one thing that I lack are outboard verbs. I'll spend up to 15gs in that dept. For delays, verbs, etc...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Tetness

Just buying for the studio in general. I've been building my studio up this year. It's small, but fairly hi-end. The one thing that I lack are outboard verbs. I'll spend up to 15gs in that dept. For delays, verbs, etc...

It really depends on if its a personal place or if you will have outside guys.

Also what kind of music will you be doing?

More live stuff than synthetic timbres?

My place is like half and half.

Right now its all me so my collection of gear is more fitting to my taste.

My partner though has outside guys using the place so he is more of a bread and butter dude.


I would say the must haves if you can swing it are:

1)a Lexicon 480L

2)a pair of Eventides

3) At least 4 PCM 42's

4)a real EMT plate

5) a Sony DPSV-77

6)an EMT 250

That's roughly $15K.

Not many remotes though.


Everything else is a personal thing.

I own over 40 effect processors(and still growing).

But the music i do is a mixture of live and synthetic timbres.

I like giving tracks their own signatures.

But i grew up listening to European music in the 80's-90's so my ear goes more n that direction.