new recording / mixing console for a school

[Dirty Gear Pimp]

hey all you true believers out there in studio land.

so here's the skinny on my situation:

i work for a music production program at a community college. and at our facility, our console is turning into a 2 legged horse. she's starting to limp hard. its a soundcraft ghost 24. while it is an OK console, and i have my gripes with it--routing and signal flow limitations, and sound quality wise, it has served its purpose for the past several years. so we are getting into the market to buy a new console.

we have about $65K to spend on a new board. not too shabby, but not enough for a duality or a neve 88 or something of that magnitude. to be quite honest, i dont think our facilities could house something of that size, along with power consumption, etc. i dont think i could justify a rolls royce in here. lol. but i personally would like to have one at my disposal!! self interest out of this.....we are leaning towards buying a new console over a used one because of the question of reliability, warranty, etc. although i know i can find a nice used ssl 4K for about what we are looking to spend. i just dont want to deal with the upkeep of a vintage board.

so my main concerns are the following: a board with quality sound, quality in build, reliable, good routing features--the more the better. automation would be nice, but seems like automation starts at about $1000. per fader. i would like to possibly add automation in the future. we want at least 24 channels. we still have an old otari 2", and we want to show people how a tape machine works. (even though i dare to say its a dying medium..but i still love it. ) we teach pro tools and logic here as well. and have pro tools hd setup in this room the board will go into. not sure if we should get an inline or split line board either. most i see today are all inline. 2 main factors are that students will be touching this thing all the time and it is for students to learn on. i dont want another board that when it starts to break down, you throw it away. so something that is modular and repairable and can be easily repaired. a meterbridge, and patchbay bucket is nice. and a board that would be good to learn on so that when they do walk into another studio, they can relate what they learned on this one to learn the next--to reduce the learning curve from working on one board to the next.

we do have a daw controller in the room as well. currently a control 24 , and we are upgrading to a c24. i was pondering the idea of the ssl aws900 boards. i like the fact that you can control pro tools or any daw with it and still mix analog. but i think there are a few short comings on that board--8 busses that dont route internally, limited to 24 channels only with no monitor path . (unless you get another xrack). and it seems like it is more daw suited, than tape friendly. but i do like the automation and total recall on the board. i also dont like the idea of buying into something that is too digital as digital technology is always rapidly advancing forward (i know, the board is mostly analog summing and channelstrip wise-- i mean about daw control being digital), and we can never really see where technology going to be in 5 or 10 years. (maybe things will be like in metalocolypse where the latest in recording technology would be recording to water! lol ). anyway... but if you have a different pov, ill welcome it. not to sound harsh, i think a noob would be walking out of here more likely pushing faders on a mackie than sitting in front of a ssl 9K.

we did just order an api dsm24 system. i wanted to show people how a summing system works, and that one seems to have to have alot of routing and patching involved compared to other summing systems, which i think would be good for students to learn signal flow. i was going to put that in a road case to wheel around the studios as a sidecar mixer.

consoles i have been looking at are the following. any suggestions are welcome.

neotek elite 2
neotek elan 2
api 1608
neve 5088
that new trident board that is still in the works. but i dont know much about it. im always skeptical of some new toy on the block but hasnt been fully tested in the field.

i have been leaning toward the neoteks. based on from what i been reading, that it is repair friendly. most components are off the shelf, it has good routing on it--24 bus routing matrix, mute groups, automation upgradable, inline. etc. and they are reliable.

so any info on any of these boards or your suggestions would be greatly appreciated. we are a school and our main concern is students to learn how this stuff works. so when they get out there to be freelancers, they at least have an idea on how to work this stuff. or if you were going to hire an intern for your studio with good chops, work ethic, proper studio etiquette, can make a damn good cup of coffee and can competently take a midnight lunch order, what you would expect them to know if they were going to work on your large format console...or small format console, or whatever you got. i would prefer suggestions from well seasoned professional people who actually have worked on one of these boards, or the consoles they think would be good for our facility. i DO NOT want a flame war on why people should or should not get a degree in music production or bother going to school for that matter. we are a state institution. but im not going to mention any names. also, if you havent worked on the console, please dont tell me your dream console and how you would love to work on it, so i should buy it.

[Ben B]

Audient?

That way, there's some money left over for automation or other stuff.

-Ben B

[bananerosabroso]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Audient?

That way, there's some money left over for automation or other stuff.

-Ben B

+1 on the audient.

I couldn't speak as to the long-term reliability/repair as I didn't use it but for a couple of months, but it was at another recording school (I'm sure it'd been put through its paces before I got there) and I thought things ran smoothly.

It isn't modular, but it has the patchbay and a musical eq. It ain't color, but it'll certainly get the job done, and as Ben said, you'll have some left over for the automation.

Speaking of modular, have you looked at the 500 series consoles?

[Ken Lewis]

My suggestion would be to buy a used SSL AWS 900 or 900+. Make sure it has a full patch bay, recall and awesomeation (the plus has both, the old 900 you can upgrade for recall and awesomeation).

The console is small, sounds amazing, plugs into the wall, generates very little heat, doesnt need a separate machine room, sounds like an SSL, has full recall and automation, all the things you'd want for teaching. Plus you'd be teaching on an SSL which should raise your prestige level of your program over other programs teaching on a Neotek or the like.

Abandon your Otari. prepare your students for what they'll face in the real world and most (not all) of the tape machines left around stay turned off.

I've never used the Neve so i dont know what its like, but i love my AWS. good luck with your program. If you want to speak to someone who uses this board every day, feel free to PM me with your phone number and I'll be happy to call you. -Ken Lewis

[drew]

I agree with Ken 100%. It's a no brainer.

I use and teach on a Duality everyday, and the AWS is the closest thing you'll get to it.

If you pushed the budget (use the $65k as a deposit and finance the rest), you could get a 24 channel Duality for around $150k which would allow you to expand it to 48 channels later. Just a thought.

[waxx]

actually, when i spoke to jim of ssl half a year ago, he said a basic 24 ch duality comes for 80 000€ these days, wich is rufly 120K in dollar. But this is without automation and recall off course

an aws, audient or maybe D&R console would be my choice.

aws is good because it's an ssl, wich is still the most popular brand of hi end top level consoles i think, and it makes your school look better.

Audient is very cheap for what they deliver, and it's at least subtop concerning quality and usability. Idem with D&R Consoles.

The API and RND consoles are a bit limited in my opinion. They sound wonderfull i suppose. i never used them, altough i used a wonderfull API Legacy in the past wich should be similar with the 1608 but bigger. To fully load them you will probally need more money.

I don't know the Neotek's so i can't judge them.

[Ken Lewis]

also a note to the OP, the "8 busses" on the AWS board, as well as the 24 channels, is not as limiting as it might sound.

Each channel has a direct out. I've recorded full band on my console, it was a breeze.

You have 4 stereo echo returns that you can bring anything back on, not just effects. So thats 32 in's really. and they sound good. Further, you can insert a stereo input into the mix bus and combined the board mix bus with that signal, so, for instance if you wanted to run a 16 channel summing box and link it to the SSL, it would be very easy and straightforward.

The console also has two separate Mix busses that you can combined at the end of your mix chain, so i often split my low frequency material to one mix bus and everything else to the other, or sometimes i'll only put my lead vocal on the second mix bus, and it seems to be a bit clearer that way

[chrislongwood]

In the 65K range you can get a nice new 24 channel Neotek Elite from Sytek. I went from a Ghost to a Neotek Elan 2 TT. I love the Neotek. I personally like the Neotek sound better than the other consoles mentioned.

+1 on the neotek.. I work with one on a daily basis. TONS of headroom.. i usually never use the pad, just pull down on the small fader.

also lots of functions and very very tasty eq's


We had to service ours after major electric problems at the studio- Mike Stoica/Sytek was more than helpful making sure we got back online with little downtime

[Marcocet]

Yup. I'm a 1608 user and love the hell out of the thing but it doesn't really sound appropriate for your situation. The SSL 900+ and Neotek sound like the right answers to me. Very different central pieces for a studio though. The Neotek is more of a stripped down, do it the old school way kind of feel. The SSL is more like an SSL. Personally I'd prefer the Neotek but I'm sure not everyone would agree with me.

Good luck! I think it's a good move to try to stay slightly under budget so you have some repair cash around. Even on a brand new board not everything is going to work out exactly as you'd expect.

[Bassmec]

Commy-unity college? Education, education, education. Then 1000's of freelancers!, Since they do the whole thing on a laptop in their bedroom with some software they got off a mate at college, why teach them about consoles, the way this industry is headed.
So you didn't manage to get a job in a commercial studio then?, And freelancing was a little bit lean, eh!
Here our multiple local municipal recording facilities (that now far outnumber commercial ones) run continuos Battle of the Bands competitions, so hopes of free recording studio time abound far more than the ethic of paying for time in commercial facillities that have proper track record.
When you listen to their colleges culture and product on a day by day basis as I do, the lecturers tell them that you don't actually need a great howling guitar amp to record
a truly great guitar sound, there is a plug-in for that now.Etc Etc Etc.
It has now reached the saturation point in the UK that Education its self is the main enemy of this Cottage Industry and the interests of most of those on this site.
Wheres that nice senator Macarthy when we need him most?.

[Dirty Gear Pimp]

thanks to all those who replied so far.

i sat in front of the audient briefly. while it is a pretty straight forward design and layout, i wasnt too crazy about the faders on it. they seemed kind of flimsy. which was a turnoff for me.

as for the 500 series consoles like the tree console and the new petes place mark 8, they seem really really really cool. (id love to have one) i just dont think it would fit the bill for what we need here. they dont have enough aux sends for me to use. the layout on those are straight forward as well, and you get to use all those nice 500 modules, which would be killer. but id like to have something that is either inline or a split line board. i want students to understand that concept because i feel that the majority of the consoles out there work this way, and it would be easier to take the knowledge they learn at school and apply it to where ever they go after school and adjust quickly to the board they will be working on. if they work on one at all.

i havent looked into D&R. so ill scope out their site and their boards.

i have used the aws900+ many times. i like the compact size of it. its a wonderful sounding board. when i used it, it was for mixing only and not tracking. i like the idea it definitely fills the gap between having an analog board and a controller and streamlines the whole room by having only one console and not 2. its a brilliant and innovative idea. but that is both positive and negative. negative being that there is nothing else out there like it on the market except for the duality. im going to contact ssl this week and talk to them and see what they have to say. what worries me the most about the aws is if it starts to break down. we loose both a controller and analog console. not sure how easy it is to repair an aws and the cost of repairing one. i have to take into account that students will be messing with this thing all the time. a pro knows how to treat gear. a noob doesnt even know what a neumann is and how to treat one, let alone which way is the front of the mic. tutt so id like something that is rock solid in the build because it is going to get abused. i also got the impression that the aws works well with digital, but didnt really seem to be tape friendly as far as the console layout. but i do have to take into account that tape is a dying medium. i dont think any more companies are even making tape reels anymore. and i do want something that is long term. i dont see ssl going out of business anytime soon.

chrislongwood--what issues did you wind up having after the electrical problems?
is the neotek all surface mount on the pcb ?

[Dirty Gear Pimp]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Commy-unity college? Education, education, education. Then 1000's of freelancers!, Since they do the whole thing on a laptop in their bedroom with some software they got off a mate at college, why teach them about consoles, the way this industry is headed.
So you didn't manage to get a job in a commercial studio then?, And freelancing was a little bit lean, eh!
Here our multiple local municipal recording facilities (that now far outnumber commercial ones) run continuos Battle of the Bands competitions, so hopes of free recording studio time abound far more than the ethic of paying for time in commercial facillities that have proper track record.
When you listen to their colleges culture and product on a day by day basis as I do, the lecturers tell them that you don't actually need a great howling guitar amp to record
a truly great guitar sound, there is a plug-in for that now.Etc Etc Etc.
It has now reached the saturation point in the UK that Education its self is the main enemy of this Cottage Industry and the interests of most of those on this site.
Wheres that nice senator Macarthy when we need him most?.

im pretty sure that "nice" senator from the 1950s is dead. while i do appreciate that you have an opinion, i did say in my original post that i wanted to keep this post clean of opinions on whether an education is needed or not in our business. tutt if you have any gripes with it, then please post in the moan zone.

[bkbirge]

Originally Posted by Dirty Gear Pimp

killer. but id like to have something that is either inline or a split line board. i want students to understand that concept because i feel that the majority of the consoles out there work this way

If you teach the students to always understand signal flow then the difference in split/inline is moot.

I don't know what's out there now that's new that would work for you but I'm not an Elite/Elan fan, I've used them on many records and I always found them very hard to work on sonically, I've never been a fan of the pres and the eq is just ok, not broad enough for smoothness and not tight enough to be surgical even with the pop tops. Just my opinion so don't flame me, others love 'em. Meters are nice. I'd rather have a Trident 65 than one of the newer Neoteks. The series II/III's I like quite a bit though.

[jensenmann]

I´ve been in the same situation twice the last two years when I was involved in the planning of a small surround room for a professional school (we´re in Germany, different education system) and a large room for live/broadcast work.
The surround room was intended for recording/mixing and hence got PTHD and a Yamaha DM2000 digital desk because of the total recall ability. Students and teachers usually have 1.5h time intervals in the room. Total recall was a must for fast changeovers. Yamaha did support us more than other companies so we went this route. Digital audio is regarded as the future, more than analog, at least here in Germany (let´s not discuss this) so the decision was a nobrainer. But we added a bunch of analog outboard and extremely flexible patchbays (analog and digital) for being able to teach routing.
The broadcast/live room was a different beast. Here I bought an ADT audio C series desk which basically is one of a kind. It´s inline with matrixes and cleanfeed busses which makes it unique. No other manufacturer was able to built something strange. It has an automation, too. In this room the task was to be able to show the students all variations of consoles. Here they have less time with the consoles (we have app. 10 different ones) so the big one is for demostration only with me as operator. The students work with smaller desks. The surface needed to be analog because it´s easier to show them certain things very fast. Changeovertimes are different in this room because it´s only me teaching here, no other guy´s messing up everything. The desk is 48ch which is enough to have two different projects set up at a time. More is not necessary which rendered the need for total recall unnecessary. The manufacturer is a german company which makes support easy and cheaper than other products. They supply a lot of desks to broadcasters, filmstudios, OBtrucks, etc (studios, too) which is a valuable argument because we want to demonstrate gear which is widespread in the upper quality league. But we already had budget gear, too, so to step up in quality was another argument.
I hope some of these arguments are helpful for your decision.
cheers
Jens

[chrislongwood]

Originally Posted by Peacock

The Neotek sounds great with tape.

Oh yeah it does..



GearPimp- We bought our Neotek back when MartinSound owned it. Over the summer, our electrical box outside the studio was hit by lightningstikestikestikestikestikestike, really messed up a lot of stuff.. On the console, most of the meters were lit up red- and not all the lights were turning on the power supply.
We first sent our power supplies over to Sytek. Mike said there were no fuses or any kind of protection. He fixed that.

So when we got our new and improved power supplies, we fired up the console and noticed that some pre's werent working, some of the mute/solo functions werent working. I think we ended up sending 7 modules over to get repaired - and they were back within a week.

But all of the PCB's (in our elite) are stuffed boards, no surface mount... We replaced some resistors, but decided it was best to send them to the guy who designed the stuff.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Dirty Gear Pimp

im pretty sure that "nice" senator from the 1950s is dead. while i do appreciate that you have an opinion, i did say in my original post that i wanted to keep this post clean of opinions on whether an education is needed or not in our business. tutt if you have any gripes with it, then please post in the moan zone.

You got that wrong!, I think you will find that we are in completely different businesses.
I sell recording studio time to musicians.
You lie for a living!. educating gullible young people about ways they might get around paying professionals like me and still get a brilliant result and unlike you the chance of real gainful full time employment?.
If you wanted to be in this business why didn't you get a commercial studio and start properly competing in this business?.
Anything else is just thinly politically disguised theft.
The UK is full of stupid trots that think its OK to steal from the music industry, look
no further than the Labour party, they even nicked one of our songs to use as an election theme without any consultation with the artist or publisher.
Believe it or not!. We don't happen to have jobs for a spare couple of thousand newly qualified? sound engineers in East Anglia every college term.
Which local authority expert told you we where ever likely to?.
But then unlike you I haven't been properly government vetted for kiddy fiddling etc. have I. Due to my customer list including bands like "Cradle of Filth" and "Extreme Noise Terror" I feel quite sure that the historic graffiti in my drum room is far too politically incorrect to be considered in any way shape or form for any purpose what so ever by local government.
Don't arrogantly tell me to take my complaint elsewhere, because I aint some snotty little college kid! I have been known to get quite politically incorrect occasionally.
Don't you know there's a war on laddie!.

[psycho_monkey]

if you're teaching, you owe it to your students to get them something that will allow the use of board automation. Less important than it once was of course, but it's still something that could be taught better at this level - and to not have the option could end up very frustrating.

My vote would be with the AWS as well.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Peacock

Sounds like you are into the heavy metal stuff. I do not listen to that kind of music but the next door kid loves Cradle of Filth.

I read something about them tracking in Chapel studio recently. When did you work with these guys. I would like to hear the tracks.

PS-Your studio looks nice and secluded. Looks like a nice place to track judging from the outside pictures.

We record all over the place mate, With Colin Richardson producing he likes Chapels Drum room a lot, but then guitars get done at Rob Caggiano's place in New York state sometimes. I have been working for the band engineering from about when they signed their first deal and did loads I am credited for. Even some vocals on the new Andy Sneep produced album where tracked at Springvale and Dan Filth was in today and again on monday. My big problem is that my local college charges £25 per day in their Audient desk equipped studio as long as a student gets to do the work.
BMPro
BurySOUND 2009
This is yet more UK government sponsored illegal price fixing and has to stop one way or another.
The office of fair trading think this.
>Mr Mark Fairfax-Harwood
>By email: springvalestudios@btinternet.com



>Our ref
>Epic/Enq/E/39921
>Direct line
>(020) 7211 8511
>Date
>13 August 2008
>Fax
>(020) 7211 8391


>Email
>Enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk


>Dear Mr Fairfax-Harwood,

>Thank you for your email of 6 August regarding your concerns about the competition >that you face from publicly funded recording facilities.

>By way of background the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is responsible for making >markets work well for consumers. We achieve this by promoting and protecting >consumer interests throughout the UK, while ensuring that businesses are fair and >competitive. Our primary duties include the enforcement of competition law, and the >application of consumer protection legislation in respect of matters that adversely >affect the collective interests of UK consumers. We also have a role in educating >consumers, government and business, and taking informal action where appropriate. >For more information on the work we carry out please visit our website at >The Office of Fair Trading: making markets work well for consumers.

>The main law covering competition in the UK is the Competition Act 1998 (the Act). >In brief, the Act contains two main prohibitions. The Chapter I prohibition prohibits >price fixing or other anti-competitive agreements which prevent, restrict or distort >competition. The Chapter II prohibition prohibits conduct by companies which >amounts to an abuse of a dominant position.

>The type of situation you refer to could potentially be considered under the Chapter >II Prohibition. Under the Act, a company is considered dominant if it can operate >independently of its competitors and customers. In assessing this we consider >whether there are any constraints on the company’s behaviour such as the strength >of existing competitors in the market. However a company is unlikely to be dominant >if its share of the relevant market is less than 40 per cent.

>Based on the information provided, it does not appear that any of the organisations >offering studio services that you refer to would be dominant on a relevant market, so >it is unlikely that their actions significantly effect competition.

>Finally, I must stress that the OFT has limited resources and must prioritise its work. >We receive thousands of complaints a year and we are unable to pursue them all. >We therefore must consider whether the issues raised falls within our administrative >priorities. In order to reach a view, we have developed a framework for the >prioritisation of competition cases which includes a number of different criteria, these >are available on our website.

>If you continue to be concerned about the effect of publicly funded recording facilities >we would recommend that you contact the Audit Commission (AC) which is >responsible for issues of corporate governance in local authorities. The AC can be >contacted in writing at:

>Audit Commission
1st Floor, Millbank Tower
Millbank
>London
>SW1P 4HQ

>We appreciate the time you have taken in bringing this matter to our attention. Our >intention, at this time, not to make further enquiries into this complaint does not >preclude the OFT from revisiting the matter should further information come to our >attention.

>Yours sincerely
>Philip Butcher
>Philip Butcher
>Enquiries and Reporting Centre

It may come as a complete surprise but what do you know!? the audit commission
haven't replied yet.
Perhaps the original poster in this thread would like to be honest enough to contact the office of fair trading and join their little bust your self scheme to avoid prosecution.
The Office of Fair Trading: Confess your cartel to the OFT
As nobody in government appears to be at liberty to explain to me what is going on
exactly and more importantly why they think that UK law does not apply to them.
The council I pay my business rates to have employed 30 music teachers and seven
pier mentors in a scheme to provide subsidized rehearsals and demo recording
in community centers funded of course by the rate payers.
9 years ago there was 0 involvement in contemporary music by government, but now you can even get a degree in being a punk.
The worst thing about all of this is I know these people, they are all the also rans who never had the skills or determination or had earned the capitol for investment to run a studio and now the government just hands them one and a living wage to run it. just as long as they remove the sex and drugs from the rock and roll bit. Oh and no expletives or anything politically incorrect in the lyrics will be tolerated.
Go on grass up your local Education Dept "Dirty gear pimp" then get your own gear and premises and feel like the genuine article for a change. I dare you.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

We record all over the place mate, With Colin Richardson producing he likes Chapels Drum room a lot, but then guitars get done at Rob Caggiano's place in New York state sometimes. I have been working for the band engineering from about when they signed their first deal and did loads I am credited for. Even some vocals on the new Andy Sneep produced album where tracked at Springvale and Dan Filth was in today and again on monday. My big problem is that my local college charges £25 per day in their Audient desk equipped studio as long as a student gets to do the work.
BMPro
BurySOUND 2009
This is yet more UK government sponsored illegal price fixing and has to stop one way or another.
The office of fair trading think this. <snip>

As much as I think you have a point, I'd suggest you start your own thread instead of derailing a legitimate one! I don't really think Mr DGP is your competition.

[Titans55]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

We record all over the place mate, With Colin Richardson producing he likes Chapels Drum room a lot, but then guitars get done at Rob Caggiano's place in New York state sometimes. I have been working for the band engineering from about when they signed their first deal and did loads I am credited for. Even some vocals on the new Andy Sneep produced album where tracked at Springvale and Dan Filth was in today and again on monday. My big problem is that my local college charges £25 per day in their Audient desk equipped studio as long as a student gets to do the work.
BMPro
BurySOUND 2009
This is yet more UK government sponsored illegal price fixing and has to stop one way or another.
The office of fair trading think this.
>Mr Mark Fairfax-Harwood
>By email: springvalestudios@btinternet.com





>Our ref
>Epic/Enq/E/39921
>Direct line
>(020) 7211 8511
>Date
>13 August 2008
>Fax
>(020) 7211 8391


>Email
>Enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk


>Dear Mr Fairfax-Harwood,

>Thank you for your email of 6 August regarding your concerns about the competition >that you face from publicly funded recording facilities.

>By way of background the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is responsible for making >markets work well for consumers. We achieve this by promoting and protecting >consumer interests throughout the UK, while ensuring that businesses are fair and >competitive. Our primary duties include the enforcement of competition law, and the >application of consumer protection legislation in respect of matters that adversely >affect the collective interests of UK consumers. We also have a role in educating >consumers, government and business, and taking informal action where appropriate. >For more information on the work we carry out please visit our website at >The Office of Fair Trading: making markets work well for consumers.

>The main law covering competition in the UK is the Competition Act 1998 (the Act). >In brief, the Act contains two main prohibitions. The Chapter I prohibition prohibits >price fixing or other anti-competitive agreements which prevent, restrict or distort >competition. The Chapter II prohibition prohibits conduct by companies which >amounts to an abuse of a dominant position.

>The type of situation you refer to could potentially be considered under the Chapter >II Prohibition. Under the Act, a company is considered dominant if it can operate >independently of its competitors and customers. In assessing this we consider >whether there are any constraints on the company’s behaviour such as the strength >of existing competitors in the market. However a company is unlikely to be dominant >if its share of the relevant market is less than 40 per cent.

>Based on the information provided, it does not appear that any of the organisations >offering studio services that you refer to would be dominant on a relevant market, so >it is unlikely that their actions significantly effect competition.

>Finally, I must stress that the OFT has limited resources and must prioritise its work. >We receive thousands of complaints a year and we are unable to pursue them all. >We therefore must consider whether the issues raised falls within our administrative >priorities. In order to reach a view, we have developed a framework for the >prioritisation of competition cases which includes a number of different criteria, these >are available on our website.

>If you continue to be concerned about the effect of publicly funded recording facilities >we would recommend that you contact the Audit Commission (AC) which is >responsible for issues of corporate governance in local authorities. The AC can be >contacted in writing at:

>Audit Commission
1st Floor, Millbank Tower
Millbank
>London
>SW1P 4HQ

>We appreciate the time you have taken in bringing this matter to our attention. Our >intention, at this time, not to make further enquiries into this complaint does not >preclude the OFT from revisiting the matter should further information come to our >attention.

>Yours sincerely
>Philip Butcher
>Philip Butcher
>Enquiries and Reporting Centre

It may come as a complete surprise but what do you know!? the audit commission
haven't replied yet.
Perhaps the original poster in this thread would like to be honest enough to contact the office of fair trading and join their little bust your self scheme to avoid prosecution.
The Office of Fair Trading: Confess your cartel to the OFT
As nobody in government appears to be at liberty to explain to me what is going on
exactly and more importantly why they think that UK law does not apply to them.
The council I pay my business rates to have employed 30 music teachers and seven
pier mentors in a scheme to provide subsidized rehearsals and demo recording
in community centers funded of course by the rate payers.
9 years ago there was 0 involvement in contemporary music by government, but now you can even get a degree in being a punk.
The worst thing about all of this is I know these people, they are all the also rans who never had the skills or determination or had earned the capitol for investment to run a studio and now the government just hands them one and a living wage to run it. just as long as they remove the sex and drugs from the rock and roll bit. Oh and no expletives or anything politically incorrect in the lyrics will be tolerated.
Go on grass up your local Education Dept "Dirty gear pimp" then get your own gear and premises and feel like the genuine article for a change. I dare you.

+1....This console gets my vote!

[TC Custom Audio]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Commy-unity college? Education, education, education. Then 1000's of freelancers!, Since they do the whole thing on a laptop in their bedroom with some software they got off a mate at college, why teach them about consoles, the way this industry is headed.
So you didn't manage to get a job in a commercial studio then?, And freelancing was a little bit lean, eh!

A little bit bitter? I can't understand why you would disparage the OP for making a living...

[Dirty Gear Pimp]

look mr bassmec, you are making far too many assumptions....

first off, i highly doubt that our meager "commy-unity" college is your competition since we are way across the pond in the USA. so what goes on in your country, has nothing to do with what goes on over here. and those "1000s of freelancers" you mention...well....our program only has about 400 students in it all together, and roughly only 30-50 graduate a year. most of whom go off to 4 year universities like ucf, berkeley, uf, mtsu, etc, to study music, composition, business, electrical engineering, or whatever tickles their pickle. and not all of them are there to be engineers or producers for music. some want to go into post work, business, equipment design, live sound, be a studio musician, or what ever interests them. some realize that this isnt their cup of tea, and drop out of the program. the ones who are really good at doing this, had talent and were good before they even got into the program. or they had previous experience. and it is inevitable for them to go off and succeed in life, no matter what they do. we dont fill their heads with empty promises that they are going to off and become millionares and have no problem finding a job. and another thing, we dont offer rehearsal space. nor do we sell rehearsal space at a rock bottom low price to undercut everyone else in town for just a little extra scratch. if someone comes in and want to rehearse with their band, i tell them to get a practice place. or contact a local studio or business that offers rehearsal space. it is against the law for us to be in competition with businesses, especially local ones. we are non profit. and if you think we are stealing business away from local studios by bringing in bands to record, well id have to say that all of the bands and artists we bring in are people who the students picked to bring in to record. some of them are their friends or other students at the school. we get tons of demos every semester from bands, and only about 30-40 bands/artists record a year with 2-4 songs each. and most of the bands/artists are people who likely wouldnt have paid a pro studio to record their stuff in the first place. anyone who is really good and knows how this business works, realizes that they are working with students, who are learning and dont know all the ins and outs of a studio. and their session is going to take a lot longer. anyone off the street who comes in to book studio time cause they want to start their project right now as if we are a commercial facility, i tell them to call one of the local studios like kds, phat planet, plush, gridlock, greg rike, crush, etc. depending on their budget, style of music, and what gear they are looking to use. if anything, we support local studios.

and yes i own my fair share of nice gear. but i dont come on here to brag about what i own, or who i worked with. i come on here for research and information. im also building a few pieces now in my spare time as well courtesy of the prodigy pro forum. ok so i dont have any platinum records hanging on the wall that i earned. so what! i at least enjoy what i do. gee, sorry pal, i wasnt lucky enough to earn one. maybe someday though. and i did used to help out at a commercial facility here in town. which isnt around anymore. my one friend had a aneurysm one morning and left his wife and 9month old baby alone in this world. probably from working 80 hours a week and stress. another engineer died of a heart attack, and the 3rd is off somewhere.. doing what, i dont even know. so the place was sold. too much energy there, so i dont go back. and if you are implying that im stupid for taking a full time gig managing a studio at a commy-unity college with solid pay, solid hours, pension, benefits, and a vacation. well then you can go fuuck yourself, pal. i dont care how old or young you are. you should at least be respectful of other people.

now that this is said, and completely off topic from my original post, lets get back to the subject at hand. so quit dfegad on my thread, bassmec!

[Dirty Gear Pimp]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

if you're teaching, you owe it to your students to get them something that will allow the use of board automation. Less important than it once was of course, but it's still something that could be taught better at this level - and to not have the option could end up very frustrating.

My vote would be with the AWS as well.

thats a good point about the automation. besides, ssl , what other automation systems are available out there that are still in production and current as far as software and support? ive used the ssl aws and the 9000 before and i do like how their computer software is set up. the 9000 reminds me of DOS back in the day. but we would like to get a board that is more current in production and such.

unfortunately, i think buying a used console might not be an option, im not sure though. if i sweet talk them, who knows. i probably could find an awesome deal out there. the higher-ups would rather buy something new because of a warranty and stuff like that.

[fezza]

Neve Genesys? Same automation as 88R, modular construction - you can pull out a board and keep rockin', tougher than an AWS, there are loads in the SAE places that seem to stand up to plenty of student abuse!

[oudplayer]

Down the road from where I live, the AE program at American University just installed an API 1608 and a Wunderbar. You might want to email them and find out how the API is working out for them, they're doing a related thing to you...