PA speakers _ are they hi-fi ?

[ginetto61]

Good evening !

I have read that PA speakers, at least the best examples, can be a very good option even for a stereo home system
Someone here call them "the poor man's Klipsch"
It is possible to get high SPL with low distortion level and a 3D soundstage ?
Only problem is the size and a limited low freq response
Is it true ? can they be audiophile approved ?
Please feel free to redirect this question where it belongs
Even the trash bin ...
Thank you very much indeed
gino

[ears2thesky]

Unless you put together a 3-way multi-amp system in a large room you won't get the full frequency response of decent audiophile speakers.
If you are looking outside of the range of speakers designed for home use you might try studio monitors. While the goal of all studio monitors is to be accurate and uncolored many are not but make for a pleasant hi-fi listening experience.

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=ears2thesky;4842020]
Unless you put together a 3-way multi-amp system in a large room you won't get the full frequency response of decent audiophile speakers

Thank you very much for your kind and helpful reply
How low could they go more or less ?
I could do without the lowest frequencies
I understand that also some Klipsch models are limited in the bass
Nevertheless they are very popular here in Italy
from what I understand the best model of PA speakers (that I do not know ) have high quality transducers inside that give very low level of distortion and high SPL
My point is that if a speaker gives high SPLs with low distortion should give even lower level of distortion at lower SPLs (maybe I am supposing wrongly, do not know)
I search for very low distortion above all


If you are looking outside of the range of speakers designed for home use you might try studio monitors.
While the goal of all studio monitors is to be accurate and uncolored many are not but make for a pleasant hi-fi listening experience

I rate very highly accuracy in reproduction.
I want to listen all what is on a recording, ok leaving that lowest bass out for the moment.
In the future I could add a sub woofer if I should feel the need

In particular I would be very interested to hear from people who have tried/listened these kind of speakers indoor
Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

[kosmokrator]

The best PA-rig I personally know is the V-dosc.
I don't know your house, but I'm sure my girlfriend would not let me have them as a stereo home system:

Originally Posted by ginetto61

Good evening !

I have read that PA speakers, at least the best examples, can be a very good option even for a stereo home system
Someone here call them "the poor man's Klipsch"
It is possible to get high SPL with low distortion level and a 3D soundstage ?
Only problem is the size and a limited low freq response
Is it true ? can they be audiophile approved ?
Please feel free to redirect this question where it belongs
Even the trash bin ...
Thank you very much indeed
gino

[ginetto61]

Hello !

very impressive indeed !
Actually I am thinking to those two ways 15" woofer + horn tweeter
Like this one for instance

http://www.dv247.it/assets/products/5952_l.jpg

Their price goes from about 200 each and up depending on the Brand
I heard that some Electro Voice are very good , rivalling even expensive models by Klipsch
But I have no direct experience, at least indoor experience
I read that poor sound can dipend from the amplification used
But with a very small power but high quality amp the sound could be very exciting but also correct (low distortion e good linearity)

Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

[patfont]

If you want to spend a whole lot of $$$, a good PA speaker will sound very nice in the home, (think Martin, W series for theatre, or dance.) Otherwise look to a reputable high end brand for 3D sound, proper image and excellent sound. try Monitor Audio, Focal, Paradigm, Epos......etc....etc.

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by patfont

If you want to spend a whole lot of $$$, a good PA speaker will sound very nice in the home, (think Martin, W series for theatre, or dance.) Otherwise look to a reputable high end brand for 3D sound, proper image and excellent sound. try Monitor Audio, Focal, Paradigm, Epos......etc....etc.

Thanks a lot for the kind advice.
I understand PA speakers are completely out of place in a house
Kind regards,
gino

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by ginetto61

Hello !

very impressive indeed !
Actually I am thinking to those two ways 15" woofer + horn tweeter
Like this one for instance

http://www.dv247.it/assets/products/5952_l.jpg

Their price goes from about 200 each and up depending on the Brand
I heard that some Electro Voice are very good , rivalling even expensive models by Klipsch
But I have no direct experience, at least indoor experience
I read that poor sound can dipend from the amplification used
But with a very small power but high quality amp the sound could be very exciting but also correct (low distortion e good linearity)

Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

Is not going to even rival a Klipsch Heresy 1 which incidentally had 3 electrovoice drivers per cab a 12 a mid horn and a high freq horn.
PA speakers that sound hi fi are things like passive Altec A7's and JBL 2 X 12 active concert system wedges with a 2 inch horn and a pair of bullets each.
Not some plastic bottom of the range passive 2 unit electrovoice.

[AlexK]

You'll need to aim a little higher than that if you want to get 'vaguely' hifi sound.

JBL/EV make very few good PA speakers (IMO) and both companies offer frankly dreadful sounding speakers at their budget-end. In fact neither seem to make good full-range systems until you start looking at a lot of the arena-sized stuff (so arraying speakers basically, which are useless for home-audio stuff unless you really have very special criteria).

If you want to hear good full-range 'suitable for home use, but goddam loud' PA speakers, listen to d&b audiotechnik (technical, accurate, and monitor like, but still musical at the same time, depending on the model) and Funktion One (not particularly accurate, big, fuzzy, like your dad's hifi).

Other nice (but not quite as good IMO) sounding PA speakers that I've used include KV2, Thunder Ridge and Void. On the budget-end of the range, QSC's new plastic boxes sound great, although they're not hifi by a fair bit...

[KevWind]

These pups might fit the bill as double duty . Hi Fi PA and in the living room
Daedalus Professional Audio :: Audiophile Quality Acoustic Guitar Amplifiers :: W-803

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Is not going to even rival a Klipsch Heresy 1 which incidentally had 3 electrovoice drivers per cab a 12 a mid horn and a high freq horn.
PA speakers that sound hi fi are things like passive Altec A7's and JBL 2 X 12 active concert system wedges with a 2 inch horn and a pair of bullets each.
Not some plastic bottom of the range passive 2 unit electrovoice.

Thank you very much indeed. Message received strong and clear.
Drivers do make the difference
I supposed wrongly that using cheap PA speakers at low listening leves I could get very low distortion, even if they are cheap
They are intended for very high SPLs in comparison with home listening SPLs
By the way I cannot find distortion figures on PA speakers datasheets
Maybe the actual distortion is not that low as I thought.
Thanks a lot indeed.
Kind regards,
gino

[ginetto61]

Thank you very much indeed for all your kind and valuable input
I will look at the mentioned Brands and models.

By the way I see that distortion figures are always missing in the products specifications
On the contrary if I look at the drivers specs of a pro manufacturer like JBL for instance they are always there and very clearly explained
Why this I really do not understand
Practically the only thing I look for in a aspeaker is low distortion
I read a test review where it was clear that variation of up to +/- 5 dB in the freq response can be tolerated
Instead high distortion is what causes listening fatigue
Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

[ferenc]

I sold my very expensive 4 way horn high-end audio speakers and tube amps when I first heard a Danley SH50.

Since this time I was listening the Danley SH100B, SH100 and SHLPM at home. All of them can be used in rooms above 35-40 sqm, the SH100 and SH LPM in small rooms too even in real near or midfield situation. There are only a very few hifi boxes to match their natural sound, coherency and dynamics.

If there is a PA speaker to be used at home, the mentioned Danley speakers are. Quite a few hifi and home theatre enthusiasts are doing this.

I own a pair of SH100B at the moment. If you have room big enough, an SH50 with a TH50 sub with a Xilica or XTA crossover and MC2 Audio MC1250 amps can rival any decent high-end audio rig at any price and it is good enough for live music in a jazz pub up to few hundred seats

[faramita]

I have some EV speakers, I think they are s 200. I do not know if they pass for the cheap plastic boxes, they were dear enough. They sound pretty good especially with a sub. Rival many a "studio monitor" I heard in many studios. Only problem for home use is you have to turn them up quite a bit, at low volume a lot of detail is lost. I feel that about a lot of PA systems. So if you have a large room and like to listen at a high volume it's probably a good option.
(Disregarding the looks.)

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by ginetto61

..Practically the only thing I look for in a aspeaker is low distortion
I read a test review where it was clear that variation of up to +/- 5 dB in the freq response can be tolerated

Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

I'll jump in here only because my transition phases' sort of relate. My first was the 3-way Klipsch pa box version of the Heresy (KP301) which I picked (had to due to $$) to do double duty- house playback and pa. As low end pa and 'hifi stuff go they are fairly flat, as for in house, fairly clean plus more dynamic headroom the typical hifi'. But consider at this price range the whole box is about the cost of a few of the better drivers alone.

I learned to mix on these fair enough, but I will say that moving on to a system that is accurate in all aspects rather than a few tells me 'high efficiency' is not the be all/end all. The system I have now is 'point source to about 600, and in spite of being low efficient (albeit wave guide loaded) is extremely clean and dynamic. (The Klipsch's might go just slightly louder
More important though IMHO is coherency, and low color. Just the lack of odd resonances in the low through mid range alone is a huge factor and not related to 'driver distortion' at all for example.
Would I like to have a second $$KK 4-way pair to play around in the 115+db range? Sure.
If you need low distortion @ 115db that's another job/speaker system all together.

Instead high distortion is what causes listening fatigue

Phooey. Can cause, yes. Though they both 'spec similar flat' it took me dammed near a month to get over the lack of edge' on the new system.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by ferenc

I sold my very expensive 4 way horn high-end audio speakers and tube amps when I first heard a Danley SH50.

Since this time I was listening the Danley SH100B, SH100 and SHLPM at home. All of them can be used in rooms above 35-40 sqm, the SH100 and SH LPM in small rooms too even in real near or midfield situation. There are only a very few hifi boxes to match their natural sound, coherency and dynamics.

If there is a PA speaker to be used at home, the mentioned Danley speakers are. Quite a few hifi and home theatre enthusiasts are doing this.

I own a pair of SH100B at the moment. If you have room big enough, an SH50 with a TH50 sub with a Xilica or XTA crossover and MC2 Audio MC1250 amps can rival any decent high-end audio rig at any price and it is good enough for live music in a jazz pub up to few hundred seats

I would love to hear your system. thumbsup
Yorkville tapped into a bit of his design as well;
Yorkville Sound: Unity™ About $1200 a pop.

[ferenc]

Originally Posted by Wayne

I would love to hear your system. thumbsup

Send me a PM and I send you a link with some video at home and in concert too.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by ginetto61

Hello !

very impressive indeed !
Actually I am thinking to those two ways 15" woofer + horn tweeter
Like this one for instance

http://www.dv247.it/assets/products/5952_l.jpg

Their price goes from about 200 each and up depending on the Brand
I heard that some Electro Voice are very good , rivalling even expensive models by Klipsch
But I have no direct experience, at least indoor experience
I read that poor sound can dipend from the amplification used
But with a very small power but high quality amp the sound could be very exciting but also correct (low distortion e good linearity)

Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino

No way. As a dealer for EV, I can honestly say that no EV PA speaker is going to give you a good home listening experience. There are so many reasons why.

There are lots of high end master rooms with audiophile speakers, not studio monitors. There is no major difference between an honest audiophile speaker and a studio monitor. They both strive for even response, resistance, coverage, accuracy, etc.

PA speakers are made for adverse conditions, to handle more power, play louder (not necessarily cleaner or more accurately) for longer duty cycles. They may not have the pattern control that you need in a smaller residential space. They may have larger compression drivers which can sound harsh and unnatural in the near field, etc.

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=PDC;4860561]
No way. As a dealer for EV, I can honestly say that no EV PA speaker is going to give you a good home listening experience.
There are so many reasons why.
There are lots of high end master rooms with audiophile speakers, not studio monitors. There is no major difference between an honest audiophile speaker and a studio monitor.
They both strive for even response, resistance, coverage, accuracy, etc.
PA speakers are made for adverse conditions, to handle more power, play louder (not necessarily cleaner or more accurately) for longer duty cycles. They may not have the pattern control that you need in a smaller residential space. They may have larger compression drivers which can sound harsh and unnatural in the near field, etc.

I apologize is an old 3D
But now reading again I am not sure to have understood well
PA speakers have no possibility to be also accurate ?
I understand that in some of them high quality drivers can be found
For HG I intend low distortion, reasonable wide bandwidth and flat freq response
For instance there are PA passive speakers very cheap


http://www.musiciansbuy.com/mmMBCOM/...er_VP1520D.jpg

are they any good ?
Regards,
gino

[Pred80r]

Being a FOH as well as a studio engineer allows me the benefit of truly hearing how my mixes fall apart or glue together in high SPL environments.

I personally LOVE hearing a mix I am working on slammed through a Kudos or Vdosc rig at 126 db at mix position right next to a polished and mastered mix of similar music. At those SPL levels you can really hear a mix do some crazy things, usually the same 3 crazy things from my experience.

1. The louder the mix gets, the more it starts to fall apart, starts getting noisy in weird places and just ends up making me feel like crap.

2. The louder the mix gets the louder the bass frequencies get...eventually the whole thing turns to mud and I start feeling like crap.

3. The louder the mix gets the more it starts to tighten up and sound like I imagined it should...I can see that other people around me feel the same way and that makes me happy.

So you can see on average I am happy about my mixes 33% of the time...probably after I have already been unhappy about them for 66% of the time. A really well tuned line array can point out some stuff you will NEVER hear in a control room, but then we aren't usually mixing for that kind of environment in the first place.

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=Pred80r;7053409]
Being a FOH as well as a studio engineer allows me the benefit of truly hearing how my mixes fall apart or glue together in high SPL environments.
I personally LOVE hearing a mix I am working on slammed through a Kudos or Vdosc rig at 126 db at mix position right next to a polished and mastered mix of similar music. At those SPL levels you can really hear a mix do some crazy things, usually the same 3 crazy things from my experience.
1. The louder the mix gets, the more it starts to fall apart, starts getting noisy in weird places and just ends up making me feel like crap.
2. The louder the mix gets the louder the bass frequencies get...eventually the whole thing turns to mud and I start feeling like crap.
3. The louder the mix gets the more it starts to tighten up and sound like I imagined it should...I can see that other people around me feel the same way and that makes me happy.
So you can see on average I am happy about my mixes 33% of the time...probably after I have already been unhappy about them for 66% of the time.

good evening ! and thank you so much for your kind and valuable reply

I think I owe some explanations
In the so-called audiophile community a lot of high efficiency horn type speakers are becoming more and more popular
Avantgarde is one brand for instance
The PA speakers in my mind share with those speakers some traits
Usually tweeters are horn loaded, they are highly efficient and I think also low in distortion
The price of the "audiophile" speakers is way out of my reach.
Otherwise some PA speakers are within
I am not saying that I will use them listening at 110dB in my armchair
But I imagine that listening at moderate level will give me a very distortion free sound, as these speakers are design to be used at much higher level
Am I wrong ?
By the way I see that usually they do not go very low in the bass
They usually stop at some 60-70 Hz ... a downside actually.

A really well tuned line array can point out some stuff you will NEVER hear in a control room, but then we aren't usually mixing for that kind of environment in the first place

are you saying that your monitoring system is currently based on tuned line array ??? what is that ??
do you have any link to specific brand and model ?
Thank you again and kind regards,

gino

[Pred80r]

[QUOTE=ginetto61;7053469]

Originally Posted by Pred80r

Being a FOH as well as a studio engineer allows me the benefit of truly hearing how my mixes fall apart or glue together in high SPL environments.
I personally LOVE hearing a mix I am working on slammed through a Kudos or Vdosc rig at 126 db at mix position right next to a polished and mastered mix of similar music. At those SPL levels you can really hear a mix do some crazy things, usually the same 3 crazy things from my experience.
1. The louder the mix gets, the more it starts to fall apart, starts getting noisy in weird places and just ends up making me feel like crap.
2. The louder the mix gets the louder the bass frequencies get...eventually the whole thing turns to mud and I start feeling like crap.
3. The louder the mix gets the more it starts to tighten up and sound like I imagined it should...I can see that other people around me feel the same way and that makes me happy.
So you can see on average I am happy about my mixes 33% of the time...probably after I have already been unhappy about them for 66% of the time.

good evening ! and thank you so much for your kind and valuable reply

I think I owe some explanations
In the so-called audiophile community a lot of high efficiency horn type speakers are becoming more and more popular
Avantgarde is one brand for instance
The PA speakers in my mind share with those speakers some traits
Usually tweeters are horn loaded, they are highly efficient and I think also low in distortion
The price of the "audiophile" speakers is way out of my reach.
Otherwise some PA speakers are within
I am not saying that I will use them listening at 110dB in my armchair
But I imagine that listening at moderate level will give me a very distortion free sound, as these speakers are design to be used at much higher level
Am I wrong ?
By the way I see that usually they do not go very low in the bass
They usually stop at some 60-70 Hz ... a downside actually.

A really well tuned line array can point out some stuff you will NEVER hear in a control room, but then we aren't usually mixing for that kind of environment in the first place

are you saying that your monitoring system is currently based on tuned line array ??? what is that ??
do you have any link to specific brand and model ?
Thank you again and kind regards,

gino

1. Vdosc can output as low as 40hz and are very comfortable at 60hz. The low end of these boxes is of course accentuated by SB28's that go down to a comfortable 25-30hz and throw low end hundreds of feet in each direction. You NEVER have to worry about lacking low end in a finely tuned PA, you always have to worry about too much low end.

2. I use DAS 8's and NS-10's for my control room monitoring...they are not even closely related to a line array system as far as reproduction and performance. I also have the opportunity to use line arrays to review my mixes outside of a control room environment, which is where I can hear the things I can't hear in the control room.

3. Good PA's are FAR more expensive than most audiophile gear, a Kudo's rig costs nearly $200k if you use the LA8 amps for processing and the correct amount of tops (they don't couple correctly with anything less than 3 boxes per side) and matching Subs (usually 1.5 to 1 ratio.)

4. QSC has a decent line array in both the wide line systems and the KLA systems that won't break the bank. The EAW NT powered line array is also a nice alternative, if you get into the bigger and more rider friendly Meyer, D&B,L Acoustics ect expect to pay a LOT of money.

Hope this helps.

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=Pred80r;7053578]

1. Vdosc can output as low as 40hz and are very comfortable at 60hz. The low end of these boxes is of course accentuated by SB28's that go down to a comfortable 25-30hz and throw low end hundreds of feet in each direction. You NEVER have to worry about lacking low end in a finely tuned PA, you always have to worry about too much low end.
2. I use DAS 8's and NS-10's for my control room monitoring...they are not even closely related to a line array system as far as reproduction and performance. I also have the opportunity to use line arrays to review my mixes outside of a control room environment, which is where I can hear the things I can't hear in the control room.
3. Good PA's are FAR more expensive than most audiophile gear, a Kudo's rig costs nearly $200k if you use the LA8 amps for processing and the correct amount of tops (they don't couple correctly with anything less than 3 boxes per side) and matching Subs (usually 1.5 to 1 ratio.)
4. QSC has a decent line array in both the wide line systems and the KLA systems that won't break the bank. The EAW NT powered line array is also a nice alternative, if you get into the bigger and more rider friendly Meyer, D&B,L Acoustics ect expect to pay a LOT of money.
Hope this helps.

thank you very much again !
Now it is all clear
I understand that you have a domestic monitoring system (and I think that i would stay on this line) and a high quality PA system that you use as a final check
I will look for those DAS 8 ... i am pretty curious
Thanks a lot and kind regards,

gino

[MarkRB]

126dB yeah?
That's ****ing loud. Too loud for me, but I am getting on a bit.

@ OP

No for many reasons. PA speakers are designed to throw the audio out a long way with a huge amount of power.
A good array is designed to focus certain parts of the audio to certain parts of the room.
I'm guessing your room isn't big enough or your neighbours deaf enough for that to work in any way.

Just buy some monitors dude.

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=MarkRB;7053752] 126dB yeah?
That's ****ing loud. Too loud for me, but I am getting on a bit.
@ OP
No for many reasons.
PA speakers are designed to throw the audio out a long way with a huge amount of power.
A good array is designed to focus certain parts of the audio to certain parts of the room.
I'm guessing your room isn't big enough or your neighbours deaf enough for that to work in any way.
Just buy some monitors dude.

Thank you so much !
Your and other Gentlemen's words do not leave any further doubts to me about the insanity of my idea.
I swear I will not ask this again
Kind regards,
gino

[tkr]

Just a comment:
I think you are on the right track in thinking about pro audio gear for your hifi rig.
But you are looking at the wrong kind of gear: IMO it is the pro digital equipment which gives you extremely good value for your money, and which is easily integrated in a hifi.
yours tkr

[DannyMac]

The only truly accurate, off the shelf- so to speak, PA sPeaker I know off is the ATC pa65
But at around 5/6k for 700W it does cost a lot

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=tkr;7053879]
Just a comment: I think you are on the right track in thinking about pro audio gear for your hifi rig.
But you are looking at the wrong kind of gear: IMO it is the pro digital equipment which gives you extremely good value for your money, and which is easily integrated in a hifi.
yours tkr

Hi Tkr ! I am in Norway as well ! Stavanger .. but I am from Italy
Are you referring to powered monitor may be
I understand the PA speakers do not cope well with domestic rooms
Maybe in bigger halls that would be another situatione
Do you have any specific brands to recommend ?
Thanks and regards,
gino

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=DannyMac;7053906]The only truly accurate, off the shelf- so to speak, PA sPeaker I know off is the ATC pa65
But at around 5/6k for 700W it does cost a lot

thank you great brand ATC ... I heard of it
Unfortunately out of my budget
Thank you anyway
Regards,
gino

[tkr]

[QUOTE=ginetto61;7054042]

Originally Posted by tkr

Hi Tkr ! I am in Norway as well ! Stavanger .. but I am from Italy
Are you referring to powered monitor may be
I understand the PA speakers do not cope well with domestic rooms
Maybe in bigger halls that would be another situatione
Do you have any specific brands to recommend ?
Thanks and regards,
gino

No.
What I am saying is that it is extremely unlikely that you will find any pa- speakers which will fulfill your needs in a hifi-system, at least within your price range.

There are some "crossover brands" , such as B&W, ATC and Dunlavy, but these are expensive.

Active monitors may be more up your alley. I use a set of KRK Rokit 8 in my small hifi-system. They are a bit bass-heavy but sound OK.

But if you are looking for very good value for the money, you will find that pro audio digital eqipment, i.e. ad/da, will give you that.

In other words, I think that you are looking at the wrong components if you want to use pro equipment.

yours tkr