2010: Analog compressor for electronic music or better stay with plugins

[HomeProducer]

I am do mostly electronic stuff (not professionally, but it improves) and always lived with plugins for mixing/"mastering". I have experience with plugins like Sonnox Dynamics (nice), Sonalksis SV315 (nice), UAD LN1176 (mainly nice), UAD L2A2 (nice, but limited), tried Waves SSL (ok), Waves API (not bad), UAD Precision Comp (not bad, but somewhat boring), softube CL1B (nice, but could it be, that the thing distorts at high gain reductions?). I can get along with such plugins. You can get very far with plugins on the mix buss by sometimes chaining two single-band compressors.
Recently tested the mpressor plugin, but was not too impressed. Also tested softube FET and CL1B and although they are nice, my expectations regarding "character" or "mojo" or whatever were higher. Tried UAD neve compressor, but didn't have any real magic either (or do you have really to run it with hot levels?).

On the analog side I just have two dbx 166 for gating/compressing some analog synths. I once had a joemeek sc4 which gave me the idea of "character". I recently tested some real tube compressor and this thing did not have that.

I don't have access to professional studios and have no idea what really to expect. So what do I want? A compressor to turn my bad mixes into gold ... not possible. I want some compressor which turns a ITB mix into something more "vintage" or "real" sounding, more round, polished, and which really HAS A TONE and not something transparent where on a cheap equipment you would not even notice the difference. Some compressor which gives a punchy mix, but also can soften edgy sound and takes out this digital hardness and grittiness, something "forgiving" to the source, perhaps adding thickness, weight, making the mix sounding somewhat more expensive. Maybe it does not exist. Maybe the difference is too small between ITB and OTB these days? Also the compressor should be suitable for dance stuff in the sence to shape the mix dynamics. So my questions are as simple as that: how reasonable are analog compressors these days compared to the best plugins. Is the difference only 5-10% or is the difference in quality clearly and immediately audible?

Possible candidates would be (not tested any):

real API 2500? Smart C2? Pendulum OCL2? TFPro 38EX?
Any other? Or just UAD Fatso emulation? Portico? Manley?

There is a shop here where I can pay over 12 months
Limit: 3000 Euro.

Sorry for these "stupid and naive" questions, but it's just because I have no access to an analog studio. So would you invest an analog compressor as a mix buss device in an otherwise digital mix environment?

[ProducerBoy]

You're questions are wise, not naive. : )

I haven't tried the softube comps, but I have tried or owned the rest and came to exactly the same opinions you did.

Quote: "...vintage" or "real" sounding, more round, polished, and which really HAS A TONE and not something transparent where on a cheap equipment you would not even notice the difference. Some compressor which gives a punchy mix, but also can soften edgy sound and takes out this digital hardness and grittiness, something "forgiving" to the source, perhaps adding thickness, weight, making the mix sounding somewhat more expensive."

It's funny you would include the API 2500 as a possible choice, because every descriptive you used in that quote sounds exactly like what the 2500 will give you. The UBK Fatso would also fit the bill.

[raal]

let me suggest the Waves CLA comps and H-Comp if you haven't heard them. they're very good IMO.

for hardware, besides what you already mentioned i would also consider Inward Connections TSL-3, Chandler Zener and Anamod 660 for some mojo. of course there are others but we have these and use them alot. best of luck.

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

Is the difference only 5-10% or is the difference in quality clearly and immediately audible?

Sorry for these "stupid and naive" questions, but it's just because I have no access to an analog studio. So would you invest an analog compressor as a mix buss device in an otherwise digital mix environment?

To me the difference is more than 5-10% and is clearly audible. Depends how you use them too.

It's not a stupid question at all. I also tried most of the software comps you did and came to a lot of the same conclusions as well.

You know for dance it is also helpful to have a few cheap analog comps around too.

Before kicking out the $$ I would try a couple if you can- see what the demo/return policy is at that shop, or if there are rentals available in your area.

I like the C2 and believe it or not the Manley Vari-Mu (others don't like that one as much it seems though). Zener I would say is more suited to rock than dance and on the drum bus but I know some people that get good use of it on the 2-bus, so... Never used the API 2500, must be the only gearslut that hasn't...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

I don't have access to professional studios and have no idea what really to expect. So what do I want? A compressor to turn my bad mixes into gold ... not possible. I want some compressor which turns a ITB mix into something more "vintage" or "real" sounding, more round, polished, and which really HAS A TONE and not something transparent where on a cheap equipment you would not even notice the difference.


Sorry for these "stupid and naive" questions, but it's just because I have no access to an analog studio. So would you invest an analog compressor as a mix buss device in an otherwise digital mix environment?

My advice is to hire a professional mix engineer to mix your project.

There is no one piece of gear(s) that will give you what you want. That "sound" is a combination of things, including how the mixer interprets what sounds work best for your composition. When you buy something and marvel at the "sound" is a combination of these things at work. The gear are just choices of tools one can use to possibly get it done.

[SighBorg]

I've tried a lot of comps for electronic based music and so far my favorites are SSL Channel comps & the Crane Song HEDD. The HEDD's isnt really a "compressor" but the Tape process with a little of the Pentode knob def gets the sound & does great things to the drums. SSL channels comps give tons of vibe to dance music, esp if you want a dark smokey sound similar to a lot of the progressive House stuff.

API & Thermionic Culture are popular for electronic stuff right now.

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by ProducerBoy

You're questions are wise, not naive. : )

I haven't tried the softube comps, but I have tried or owned the rest and came to exactly the same opinions you did.

Quote: "...vintage" or "real" sounding, more round, polished, and which really HAS A TONE and not something transparent where on a cheap equipment you would not even notice the difference. Some compressor which gives a punchy mix, but also can soften edgy sound and takes out this digital hardness and grittiness, something "forgiving" to the source, perhaps adding thickness, weight, making the mix sounding somewhat more expensive."

It's funny you would include the API 2500 as a possible choice, because every descriptive you used in that quote sounds exactly like what the 2500 will give you. The UBK Fatso would also fit the bill.

Sounds like the 2500 for sure. Lots of SSL or C2 users for electronic as well.

[rydan]

Well, i have two mynx:es, one with Eeqs and one with Ecomps, and i really like those. Gives a nice gritty edge on electronic stuff I think. The culture vulture is excellent as well of you want to dirty things up.

[NWSooner]

I asked a similar question here recently and you might find some of the responses useful:

Outboard compression when mixing mostly ITB?

[trashman]

For my personal music I compose mostly acid / electro / industrial. I have and have had a few bus comps here for test (portico, drawmer, api, ssl) ... if I had to choose one, I'd probably go with the ssl fxg384.
I think you need two though: one for drums and one for the mix. I use the api 2500 for drums and the tone kills as does the flexibility.

What's your budget?

[larry b]

You know, it's funny because some of the best sounding electronic music i have ever heard was done on studio setups that look more like they were built for rock and roll than electronic music. I'm talking big vintage analog consoles, high-end rackmount gear, etc.

And then there's that middle ground where lots of electronic dudes are running mainly a DAW setup, but they have those one or two really sick outboard comps or a killer mic pre and a U47, etc etc.

So yeah i say go for it.

thumbsupthumbsup

[DarkSky Media]

Notwithstanding Thrill's advice, you *will* find a difference (in a good way) from including an appropriate (vibey) OTB comp on the mix buss of your ITB mix.

You'll also hear a difference (in a good way) if you include other OTB processing (Eq, effects etc) on your ITB mix. And you'll notice a further difference (in a good way) if you do your summing in an appropriate analog device. All these effects are cumulative, and are available whether or not you hire a professional mix engineer. Burt, of course, not especially cheap (you need high end conversion, outboard and summing to make the dif worth having).

IOW a hybrid setup does offer palpable advantages.

[Clairaudience]

€3.000? An Elysia Mpressor...

I know this tool does not really have that vintage vibe or tube euphonic distortion, but it is a great tool for the various electronic genres.

If you are looking for an absolutely amazing vintage euphonic sound, why not a Studer 2-track C37...a pretty good investment in a piece of equipment too, I think.

All the other suggestions given to you in this thread seems like good candidates too though.

[Karloff70]

Disregarding "one off cure" mix buss thoughts for a minute, you could do a lot worse than get a (second hand?) Drawmer 241 for separates. It will make your drums spank in a way that none of those plugs will ever get near......also very nice for riffs, to shape the groove. Very exact for that, as the envelope is super fast. Parks a snare beautifully. Friendly tone, too.

If I were you I'd get one of those and a dbx160xT and some sort of SSL clone (unless you want to shell out for the real thing) for the drum buss. Stick the rubber band bounce round your drums, but not the whole mix.

Just a few thoughts......

[fragletrollet]

Whats the difference between a DBX 160XT and an 160AT?

[Karloff70]

Quoting Jim Williams:

160X = LF351 output opamp into a pair of current boost transistors, rather dirty, LF353 input and current to voltage conversion.

160XT = same except 2 5534 output opamps on the balanced outputs, unbalanced output same as 160X

160A = 5532 input, current to voltage conversion, 5532 cross coupled balanced outputs with a sloppy servo.



All rather similar, but I like xt...........

That was a two minute search by the way........

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

160A = 5532 input, current to voltage conversion, 5532 cross coupled balanced outputs with a sloppy servo.

'Sloppy servo', I like that... has a certain ring to it. thumbsup


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by u b k

'Sloppy servo', I like that... has a certain ring to it. thumbsup


Gregory Scott - ubk

That's 'clean Jim', that is.......

[larry b]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Quoting Jim Williams:

160X = LF351 output opamp into a pair of current boost transistors, rather dirty, LF353 input and current to voltage conversion.

160XT = same except 2 5534 output opamps on the balanced outputs, unbalanced output same as 160X

160A = 5532 input, current to voltage conversion, 5532 cross coupled balanced outputs with a sloppy servo.



All rather similar, but I like xt...........

That was a two minute search by the way........

Good DBX info right there.

thumbsupthumbsup

[cosmos]

c2 and 2500 user here, the c2 never leaves the master buss, GR is only a db or two, i use the make-up gain allot to get the c2 sound.. the 2500 mostly sits on percussion group, compression depending on the track.. i think its too much for the 2buss.. i also have Fatso but i rarely use it on any groups, usually on single Pas/Lead channels.. i definitely need to try that ubk mod and see how that goes.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by larry b

Good DBX info right there.

thumbsupthumbsup

Well, if you want to know what's inside a box it always helps to add "Jim Williams" to the search

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

I am do mostly electronic stuff

The great electronic music I've experienced has had way more to do with the mind behind the music than the sonics. The sonic portion elements have always been ancillary to the vibe of the programming... that said, focus on the music and use the tools that float through your world to create the sounds that DO NOT occur in nature.

Those sounds that do "occur in nature" need to be manipulated to bring out the emotion in the music and as that occurs within the reality of your composition, the tools will become apparent to your reality.

The "electronica" that sends me to a new level has sounds that are so foreign to nature [even the sounds that might occur in nature] that whatever compression device may be employed is absolutely tertiary to the overall experience.

If you're doing it right the shit you do is so experimental that the sounds you create should be sounds that push the envelop beyond anyone's experience on this forum [which goes double or triple for me as I'm old... but am totally blown away by great composition in electronic music].

Peace.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by cosmos

the 2500 mostly sits on percussion group, compression depending on the track.. i think its too much for the 2buss...

Have you tried 1.5:1? Soft knee, no thrust, feed back, 70% bp link, 3ms attack (give or take), 1-1.5s release. Get it to kiss the meters with the drums and bass hitting, then build the mix into it. It can't really ever do more than 3db of reduction set up like that no matter how hard you plow into it.

Glue for days, super vintage tone. Kick in about 3db makeup because the o/p amp adds love.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[larry b]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Well, if you want to know what's inside a box it always helps to add "Jim Williams" to the search

Aint that the troof!

[carlheinz]

I think you should look to getting your individual tracks as right as possible as early on in the tracking stage as possible... and not look at the mix buss so much for the vibe.Look to the source sounds individually.Are the dirty?Ary they harsh?Thick or thin?.Fix em on the way in.

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by u b k

Have you tried 1.5:1? Soft knee, no thrust, feed back, 70% bp link, 3ms attack (give or take), 1-1.5s release. Get it to kiss the meters with the drums and bass hitting, then build the mix into it. It can't really ever do more than 3db of reduction set up like that no matter how hard you plow into it.

Glue for days, super vintage tone. Kick in about 3db makeup because the o/p amp adds love.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

im realy loving what it does on drums when compressing hard and that set up with the c2 on the master buss never left me a chance to mix to the 2500 .. but will definitely try to swap the two and place the 2500 on the 2buss

[HomeProducer]

wow,

many great posts here! I really appreciate that. Many thanks to all!!

Originally Posted by carlheinz

I think you should look to getting your individual tracks as right as possible as early on in the tracking stage as possible... and not look at the mix buss so much for the vibe.Look to the source sounds individually.Are the dirty?Ary they harsh?Thick or thin?.Fix em on the way in.

Yes I always try so solve all kind of problems already in the mix. Sometimes ITB compression can cause also problems, and an outboard comp might help you to solve certain issues easier.

The great electronic music I've experienced has had way more to do with the mind behind the music than the sonics. The sonic portion elements have always been ancillary to the vibe of the programming... that said, focus on the music and use the tools that float through your world to create the sounds that DO NOT occur in nature.

Those sounds that do "occur in nature" need to be manipulated to bring out the emotion in the music and as that occurs within the reality of your composition, the tools will become apparent to your reality.

The "electronica" that sends me to a new level has sounds that are so foreign to nature [even the sounds that might occur in nature] that whatever compression device may be employed is absolutely tertiary to the overall experience.

Fletcher, so you are saying that for electronic music this outboard compression is not as necessary as for natural sources. Could be.
I mean, I can get along with my compressors, it's just that I have
a lot of 90ies records, and especially in the "glamour" house music
you often hear that "expensive tone".

If you are looking for an absolutely amazing vintage euphonic sound, why not a Studer 2-track C37...a pretty good investment in a piece of equipment too, I think.

I would do so, but I have no space and I think the studer would cost more than any of the compressors. Handling and maintenance are also needed.

I asked a similar question here recently and you might find some of the responses useful:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...ostly-itb.html

thanks, going to read that.

I read on this forum that the API 2500 has sometimes quality issues. How often does that happen?

regards

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

My advice is to hire a professional mix engineer to mix your project.

There is no one piece of gear(s) that will give you what you want. That "sound" is a combination of things, including how the mixer interprets what sounds work best for your composition. When you buy something and marvel at the "sound" is a combination of these things at work. The gear are just choices of tools one can use to possibly get it done.

I think what I am doing is not professional enough to safely sell it (or not yet). Hence hiring a professional mix engineer is too much for my budget. Of course it would make a difference, for sure. My "control room" is actually acoustically not so bad, has treatment.

[fragletrollet]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Quoting Jim Williams:

160X = LF351 output opamp into a pair of current boost transistors, rather dirty, LF353 input and current to voltage conversion.

160XT = same except 2 5534 output opamps on the balanced outputs, unbalanced output same as 160X

160A = 5532 input, current to voltage conversion, 5532 cross coupled balanced outputs with a sloppy servo.



All rather similar, but I like xt...........

That was a two minute search by the way........

Thanks !
I can only find the AD version at my retailer. Is this the 160A you mentioned? I know the X is old, but the others are discontinued aswell?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by fragletrollet

Thanks !
I can only find the AD version at my retailer. Is this the 160A you mentioned? I know the X is old, but the others are discontinued aswell?

Never heard it called that before, but it looks to be a 160A in this advert I googled.....

If I were you it would seem silly to buy this new though, as you'd be paying 3 times the money. 160xT second hand.