Another Hedd (clocking) question

[tonmajstor]

Hi Everybody,

My set up is RME HDSP 96/52 and an SSL Alhalink AX (madi) that I connect through adats (I need to get the RME Madi yet). Anyway I want to get a Crane Song Hedd.

The question is: will it be OK to sync my RME card and SSl to Hedd, or will I gain anything by getting a Big Ben or Rosendahl (Rosendahl being quite cheaper)?

The only other peace of equipment that needs sync is TC reverb 4000 but it gets it through AES/EBU from my RME anyway.
I don’t expect to additionally grow the digital part of my setup anytime soon.

Before you tell me to hear for myself - I live in a part of the world where you cannot hear anything before you buy it.

I appreciate your insight and advice.

Thanks,

Mirko

[Junkie]

Originally Posted by tonmajstor

Hi Everybody,

will it be OK to sync my RME card and SSl to Hedd, or will I gain anything by getting a Big Ben or Rosendahl (Rosendahl being quite cheaper)?

Mirko

Although great for clock distribution, a separate clock shouldn't be purchased to simply improve your sound - this is a common misconception and bad practise. Any digital device that changes sonic characteristics, be it better or worse, when clocked externally compared to internally is susceptible to jitter and nasty effects at its output as a consequence.

A well designed clock will be able to sync to any external signal and maintain a consistent sonic quality compared to when it is clocked internally. Even if the external clock is of questionable design, the good clock can lock on to even the ropiest of signals and regenerate a perfectly good signal at the output.

When clocked internally the poorly designed clock won't be susceptible to any interference, like jitter, so one should actually slave your studio from the worst performing clock and the good clocks will not be bothered by its poor clock signal, or any other jittery horridness!

If you're ever thinking of buying a converter and external clock package for the perfect sound, stop! Just buy a well designed converter in the first place.

I hope this makes sense.

And here come the arguments...

[tonmajstor]

Thanks a lot. It’s just that I heard (on this forum) that SSL converters sound much better when externally clocked, I just wanted to know if Hedd will do that function, or if a specific dedicated device (Big Ben) will do that, or if an external clock generator/distributor is needed at all in the likes of my setup.

BTW. To explain further: once I get the Hedd , my SSL’s main purpose will be to act as DA converter. I hope to track through Hedd and use SSL as out to my SPL Mixdream and then get back through the Hedd.

Thanks again.

[Junkie]

The SSL may very well sound better/different when clocked externally but that suggests that the clock of the SSL isn't great at rejecting jitter. Don't forget that all of these products were designed and specced when clocked internally as well, not externally.

Re. What can clock to what and how, any digital device with a digital and wordclock output will happily feed another digital device a clock signal - The Hedd will clock to your SSL, your SSL will clock to your RME etc.

Regardless of my above comments having a clock distributor is no bad thing - they are great as a central source to clock all of your devices simultaneously rather than serially clock loads of digital devices to one another.

My point was please do not buy an external clock just to simply improve your sound! It's marketing rubbish and a technically flawed theory!

I say there needs to be better education of digital audio theory and clocking issues; there is a lot of discussion about analogue character and tone but what about good digital practise? This is always overlooked yet it is used by everyone (near enough). Set up your digital system correctly and you will bring the best (and maybe unveil the worst) out of your entire audio production setup.

...sorry, needed to get that off of my chest

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Junkie

Although great for clock distribution, a separate clock shouldn't be purchased to simply improve your sound - this is a common misconception and bad practise. Any digital device that changes sonic characteristics, be it better or worse, when clocked externally compared to internally is susceptible to jitter and nasty effects at its output as a consequence.

A well designed clock will be able to sync to any external signal and maintain a consistent sonic quality compared to when it is clocked internally. Even if the external clock is of questionable design, the good clock can lock on to even the ropiest of signals and regenerate a perfectly good signal at the output.

When clocked internally the poorly designed clock won't be susceptible to any interference, like jitter, so one should actually slave your studio from the worst performing clock and the good clocks will not be bothered by its poor clock signal, or any other jittery horridness!

If you're ever thinking of buying a converter and external clock package for the perfect sound, stop! Just buy a well designed converter in the first place.

I hope this makes sense.

And here come the arguments...

No real argument as you seem to have only consumed 1/2 a glass of the Dan Lavry Kool-Aid®.

I dare say that purchasing an external clock to improve the sound is a good thing... but agree that a well designed internal clock is something to be attained in lieu of an external clock if possible... but sometimes an external clock of superior quality to a poor internal clock is a cost effective way to get a good measure of improvement for less than the cost of an excellent converter with an excellent internal clock [see Lucid for details].

The RME will be greatly improved by locking it to the clock in the HEDD-192 as that clock is VASTLY superior to any clock ever imagined by the RME folk. Unless clock distribution is required an external device like a Big Ben will indeed be unnecessary as at the end of the day [at least to my ears, YMMV] the clock in the HEDD-192 is superior to the clock in the Big Ben.

That said, the next level of improvement that can be attained [and make no mistake, a palpable sonic quality improvement can be had!!] will run you about triple the price of the HEDD-192... and from what I've been able to gather from the original post, will not be a practical thought in terms of capital expenditure or budget maintenance [like if you have to ask the question here... chances are you need improvement in a lot of other places].

Peace.

[Junkie]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

No real argument as you seem to have only consumed 1/2 a glass of the Dan Lavry Kool-Aid

Lol, not quite. But all those high end manufacturers (Prism, Lavry) do say this kind of thing and I am happy to learn from these folk.

Arguably times have changed and perhaps external clocking is now a more acceptable way of improving sonic quality, certainly for those on a tight budget.

Interesting topic nonetheless.

[Roc Mixwell]

I would do the reverse of what Junkie has suggested since it has not at all been my experience, that using your least important converters clock as the master is better than using the most important and first AD converter on internal clock to feed asynchronous 75 Ohm BNC to all other device with proper termination, which I believe is most ideal in lieu of a master clock device. I would use the HEDD 192 as the master of all other devices, or use a Clock Distribution box to feed the HEDD clock to all other devices with proper termination.

[tonmajstor]

Thanks Roc,

So your suggestion is to use Big Ben or Rosendahl to distribute the Hedd's clock instead of providing one by BB or R?

Cheers

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

No real argument as you seem to have only consumed 1/2 a glass of the Dan Lavry Kool-Aid®.
Peace.

Are you talking Jonestown type Kool-Aide?

[midnightsun]

Regarding Mirko's original post. It seems that you only need to 3 pieces of digital gear together-- HEDD, RME, and SSL and the TC is clocked from the AES in. Get your hands on a BB or distribution clock of our choice and try every permutation and combination. You may just find that you can run everything you have from the HEDD with proper termination. I think that you will only need a single T connector. Keep the BNC cables as short as possible and properly placed. Then get your friends and or trusted ears in and do some blind testing. I'll bet you won't need a BB or other distribution clock.

I've owned a BB and yes it improved an older box that was born with a crappy clock. It certainly didn't improve a box that had a decent internal clock. I used the BB for a period of time to tie together 4 or 5 pieces of digital equipment. It seems that I only have two or three pieces of digital equipment running at once now,so I got rid of the BB and don't miss it.

I usually use the Aurora 16s internal clock and occasionally use the HEDD as the master. I prefer the simplicity of running a piece of equipment from it's own internal clock. If I am tracking through the Aurora 16s then I run off of their internal clocks. If I am tracking through the HEDD I will use it as the master. If I am mixing DA out of the Auroras to my analog console I will use the Aurora internal clocks. If I am printing my analog stereo bus mix AD through the HEDD I will use the HEDD as the master if I am bouncing back into the same session. However, I usually set the HEDD to internal and print directly to another source (TASCAM DVRA1000) at whatever SR and bit depth I desire-- i.e. the digital boxes end up in two different digital worlds and both run off of their own internal clocks.

I have spent a great deal of time experimenting to see if I would improve on the Auroras by clocking from a BB or the HEDD and I just can't get an improvement and I am very happy with the Auroras. That being said I really like the HEDD and use it for many tasks that are beyond the scope of this thread.

[theoryinmotion]

Originally Posted by tonmajstor

Thanks a lot. It’s just that I heard (on this forum) that SSL converters sound much better when externally clocked, I just wanted to know if Hedd will do that function, or if a specific dedicated device (Big Ben) will do that, or if an external clock generator/distributor is needed at all in the likes of my setup.

BTW. To explain further: once I get the Hedd , my SSL’s main purpose will be to act as DA converter. I hope to track through Hedd and use SSL as out to my SPL Mixdream and then get back through the Hedd.

Thanks again.

Yes, you can clock your SSL and RME to the HEDD clock. Just use a BNC cable, a T adapter, and make sure the line is terminated if there is not internal termination in either the RME or SSL. If there is internal termination, do not use a terminator, but instead put that unit at the end of the word clock run.

Avoid daisy chaining the word clock input to outputs of the units.

Lucid has a great diagram of properly using word clock in a parralel configuration like I mentioned above. Check out page 12/16 of the Lucid Genx192 user guide pdf to see the t-adpater and parralel wiring of the word clock.
http://www.symetrixaudio.com/kb/GENx192_ug.pdf

This will yeald the best results for external clocking. In your case I would avoid adding a new clock to the system, although if you get more digital gear you will probably need to get a external clock for distribution. But with only two devices, wire in parralel for superb results off your HEDD. It's clock it awesome!

[sdd17]

After reading this post It opened my eyes to a very cool option that I never thought of.
I have an older hedd 48 version,I also have a big Ben. It never occured to me to clock everything off the Hedd useing the Ben as a very expensive WCD.
This gearslutz stuff is a great thing.
I wanted to express my holiday gratitude to all you guys.
thank you