Pro Tools certification

[narcoman]

guys - come on . Grow up. ..... you're earning money has absolutely no connection to your PT certificates. You be earning any way. The stuff you do on a daily basis in work has very little to do with being able to run a DAW well..... something a fekkin 12 year old could do. Business skill and work ethic are why you are earning....

[rhythmtech]

Originally Posted by narcoman

guys - come on . Grow up. ..... you're earning money has absolutely no connection to your PT certificates. You be earning any way. The stuff you do on a daily basis in work has very little to do with being able to run a DAW well..... something a fekkin 12 year old could do. Business skill and work ethic are why you are earning....

as i said in my post earlier,
im doing it because at 32 i have no formal qualifications whatsoever even though ive been working in the industry in various forms since i was 17. i felt the time was right to get some, for me.

as a personal thing its made me more confident to know that like many of my friends i have a qualification or two (with an internationally recognized higher diploma on the way), surely you could never put a price on that?

it really doesnt matter to me one bit whether they mean anything in our industry. at the end of the day they're words on paper and certainly not a headline on my CV

if they help me in whatever direction my career sends me then thats a bonus if not ill keep working anyway.

[dhiltonlittle]

i took the courses in nyc years ago. i was a nuendo user and always felt like i was slower than i could be at PT. now it is my main app and i love it to death. people can trash the course all they want but in reality, they really don't know what it is all about other than what they've read online. EVERYONE will walk away having learned a great deal. will it get you a job? probably not...will it make you VERY efficient at using protools? most definitely. i devoted those few weeks to diving in and studying nothing but PT and it was worth every penny. i'm not one to sit with a manual. i want hands on and someone who really knows the ins and outs to be there with me. i spend 5g's on a compressor or a preamp about every month or so, and so do most of us on here. is it really that expensive?

just know that no one cares or really even knows about the certification. do it for yourself but not because you think it's going to impress someone and you'll be all set.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by rhythmtech

as i said in my post earlier,
im doing it because at 32 i have no formal qualifications whatsoever even though ive been working in the industry in various forms since i was 17. i felt the time was right to get some, for me.

as a personal thing its made me more confident to know that like many of my friends i have a qualification or two (with an internationally recognized higher diploma on the way), surely you could never put a price on that?

it really doesnt matter to me one bit whether they mean anything in our industry. at the end of the day they're words on paper and certainly not a headline on my CV

if they help me in whatever direction my career sends me then thats a bonus if not ill keep working anyway.

Well, unlike your friends (I'm guessing) you're working in an industry that has no need for formal qualifications!

Like many others of my generation I've got a degree in an audio subject - I'm quite pleased that I took a course at a decent university with enough physics involved that it qualified as a BSc, got a good mark and so if I ever do decide I've had enough of this crazy industry, then that should count for something. If not...well I had 3 great years at uni, that didn't cost me too much (wonder if my parents will see it like that?!).

A PT certification isn't really like that. I don't think I'd pay ANYTHING for actually having the piece of paper saying I was PT certified. I'm not saying it's worthless - you should do it because you feel it could fill the gaps in your knowledge (and hopefully it will). But don't think it'll mean anything to anyone outside (or really inside) the industry.

of course, it goes without saying that you need to put the work in - being PT certified stands for nothing, being PT certified AND quick and good at using PT only comes from lots of practice, as DL testifies to above!

[therecordinghous]

well, i have my pro tools certification and own my own studio. imagine that. i am also very capable of running my own business, a session, and even pro tools. wow. (sarcasm)

after having attended college for recording arts and music business, i had the opportunity to qualify and take the certification exams at no additional cost. out of about 200 students, maybe 70 were able to pass the 101, and perhaps 15 went on to actually complete 210m certification.

as it happened in my situation, those 15 ended up being the only people i would trust holding a stick on ice skates. they were probably the most competent people in my class. not to say that certification is everything, but it does show desire to learn and self motivation.

[Avening]

Originally Posted by haikusoftruth

And one of us actually OWNS a studio...

You are exactly what Im talking about. You stupidly paid the money, got screwed, and need to defend it to make that 5 grand MINIMUM feel better...

Not once have I or my Mentor EVER hired someone because of certification.

And finally the BEST argument of all-

99% of the people certified in protools CANNOT MAKE A LIVING AT IT. Hmmmm I think that says it all. And of the people I work with here and at my Mentors, NONE of the people who are actually GOOD are certified... And neither is my Mentor.

So when all the people I know here in LOS ANGELES and OC ( gee I think its a HUB of the best TALENT in the world) and not ONE is certified other than the people who CANT GET WORK.... That says it all.

So argue all you want but I would bet you haven't been a working professional for very long. Im going on 20 years...

But thats it for me- Im actually making a record today. Good luck brushing up on your course work!

LOL!

That's a whole lot of assuming I see in that post there, chooch.

Regardless of the aforementioned quoted rubbish, think about it this way for a sec ... I was already working as a professional, in a professional facility ... the facility offered to pay for their staff to take the certification courses as a means of upgrading and perfecting their skills. I took the opportunity. Glad I did.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Avening

LOL!

That's a whole lot of assuming I see in that post there, chooch.

Regardless of the aforementioned quoted rubbish, think about it this way for a sec ... I was already working as a professional, in a professional facility ... the facility offered to pay for their staff to take the certification courses as a means of upgrading and perfecting their skills. I took the opportunity. Glad I did.

which is a very different thing for someone who ISNT working in the industry doing it to try and GET in the industry...... You working in the biz and using it to cut a few corners o get you up to speed isn't an issue - although if I was you I'd have taken the money and taught myself !!

[Lifted]

Originally Posted by narcoman

being "PT certified" doesnt mean a damn thing. Get the manual and just teach yourself. I'm an employer in this field and I can assure you - if you promote yourself as "PT certified" to me I'd have a giggle.

I gotta agree, I was certified Pro Tools engineer, but what they give you is a task that you gotta complete, in real life it will probably be harder, and way more time consuming, so learn Pro Tools if you are going to use it, clients don't care if you certified or not. If you can do your job and still have them flowing through the session, that's what important, not a piece of paper.

Trust me man thumbsup

[xtrmspl]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

well, i have my pro tools certification and own my own studio. imagine that. i am also very capable of running my own business, a session, and even pro tools. wow. (sarcasm)

after having attended college for recording arts and music business, i had the opportunity to qualify and take the certification exams at no additional cost. out of about 200 students, maybe 70 were able to pass the 101, and perhaps 15 went on to actually complete 210m certification.

as it happened in my situation, those 15 ended up being the only people i would trust holding a stick on ice skates. they were probably the most competent people in my class. not to say that certification is everything, but it does show desire to learn and self motivation.

When did you graduate from FS?

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by haikusoftruth

And one of us actually OWNS a studio...


99% of the people certified in protools CANNOT MAKE A LIVING AT IT.

Not that I care about people getting certified or not, but I'm wondering what study you pulled this precise statistic from from...I can't seem to find it.

Could you post a link to the study that published this data please?

If you have time, of course.

Thanks dude!

[therecordinghous]

Originally Posted by xtrmspl

When did you graduate from FS?

i actually just completed my MBBS this year, but dont let it fool you. i am in my thirties and had 10 years actual industry/business experience before attending.

[xtrmspl]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

i actually just completed my MBBS this year, but dont let it fool you. i am in my thirties and had 10 years actual industry/business experience before attending.

I thought I would be one of the oldest when I was there (I was 24 when I started the RA program) but much to my surprise there was a wide range of age groups there, I think one guy may have been in his 40's or 50's! Most were between 18 and 20 though.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

A PT certification isn't really like that. I don't think I'd pay ANYTHING for actually having the piece of paper saying I was PT certified. I'm not saying it's worthless - you should do it because you feel it could fill the gaps in your knowledge (and hopefully it will). But don't think it'll mean anything to anyone outside (or really inside) the industry.

Bingo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND You are the only one who can make even a remotely informed determination, as to it being appropriate and or worth it, for personal education depending on YOUR situation.. As far as it being a big influence in getting hired maybe not so much ... any definitive statements by others, as to it being worth it for you ?? is pretty much cow patty gas

[cyork]

I agree that it is a highly personal choice. But I'll through my two cents in as an employer.

I work as an Audio Director for a Video Game developer. We have employ 4 Audio staff full time and contract up to 4 or 7 additional people every year depending on the number of projects and time lines. I receive no less that a dozen applications from composers, engineers and sound designers EVERY day.

Now when I have the task of deciding who to interview for the next open contract position, the ProTools certification is one great way to filter the list down. Now clearly a CV or demo reel will speak for the folks that have experience and a track record. So of course that factors into it. But I receive a pile of applications from folks that just have Sound Forge or Garage Band and like to dabble on the weekend.

The ProTools certifications let me know that for that "Junior Dialogue Editing" position, etc... the person will not have a problem with the software. It will be up to my direction to make it clear what needs to be done. So I think it has a place.

Chad

[dannygold]

Well my bias should be fairly obvious from my signature line... but I will say this: Completing the steps needed to become a Pro Tools Certified Operator is NOT easy. The books are deep. I mean sure 101 is introductory but I bet many experienced users could not pass the 201 or 210 tests cold.

To put it another way one can learn a tremendous amount from these courses. I've seen people who own HD rigs and use them every day come out of certification much better pro tools operators. I don't know how that's a bad thing or "BS"" The course is developed by digi and shows off deep features and power user kinda stuff.

YMMV

[Magic Alex]

My two bits on the PT Certification...I'm self-employed, working with video/audio. I spend 6 days a week editing with Pro Tools and Final Cut Pro.

I'm not certified in either; I'm self taught.

However, if I had proper PT or FCP training, I bet I'd be much faster at what I do. If I had an employer to say, "Yer gonna take the course, and I'll pay for it", I'd gladly do it.

But I don't have an employer to do this.

I'm too busy to commit to a course. There are so many cool "Gear Slutz" toys that I wanna buy, and buying them gives me instant satisfaction. Buying gear is my priority. Then my work. Then my family. Oops, my wife won't see this.

In other words, I'd love to have the certification. Not to get the jobs, but to do the jobs more efficiently. How can one argue that logic???

[TravisK]

HI Folks,

I have been working in studios and schools for over 20 years(teaching PT at a techschool for 9) and using PT since 1991.



I don't promote the "certificate" for pro tools. I promote the education. I teach people all the time that have worked with PTHD for years. Sure they know alot coming in, but they always leave knowing a lot more info. Sometimes they learn things they have never used before and put it into their workflow. Other times, they learn a better way to do some things. ie, Beat detective, elastic audio.

So while you may think a "cetificate" for pro tools is Bullshit, there is nothing Bullshit about getting better at using your tools. Sure you can look up the answers your self, but it is nice to go and learn from a qualified teacher for three days of focused training.

thanks
travis K

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TravisK

y learn a better way to do some things. ie, Beat detective, elastic audio.

So while you may think a "cetificate" for pro tools is Bullshit, there is nothing Bullshit about getting better at using your tools. Sure you can look up the answers your self, but it is nice to go and learn from a qualified teacher for three days of focused training.

thanks
travis K

you cannot learn to use a tool effectively in three days for real world situations. Same reason that a degree {of which I have three !! } dont teach you a job.


You can get better using these tools by doing it yourself - there's nothing difficult about them. I say if you need to be "taught" protools - you aint trying hard enough!! The tools themselves certainly dont teach you a darn thing ..... you wanna be able to do something in PT ? It's ALL in the ref manual - same as any other music software...

[Avening]

Originally Posted by narcoman

you cannot learn to use a tool effectively in three days for real world situations. Same reason that a degree {of which I have three !! } dont teach you a job.


You can get better using these tools by doing it yourself - there's nothing difficult about them. I say if you need to be "taught" protools - you aint trying hard enough!! The tools themselves certainly dont teach you a darn thing ..... you wanna be able to do something in PT ? It's ALL in the ref manual - same as any other music software...

Respectfully (and trust me, I mean that), you haven't a clue as to what's involved in those classes. Who said anything about 3 days? It's not just a written test that you study for, take, then blammo ... there's your certification. The focus is 100% on honing in on the skills you already have, and have learned in the reference manuals, and making you lightning fast at them ... utilizing and learning the tools from the manufacturer the way they were designed to be used. Passing these courses can take years ... not days. And another thing ... being a "certified operator" means the 210m level or above, not below.

After the 110 level, the course is 100% practical (with a small side written test). The practical exams given by your instructor are extremely stressful, everything is timed ... if you go a second over the time limit for a given task, you fail. If you get under 90% on these exams, you fail. If you make an extra keystroke or mouse click, you fail. When it gets up to the expert level, the tasks, time limits, and expectations are quite honestly 10x more demanding than any session I've ever been in. I have seen Juno award winning engineers flail and die on the expert exam. I have seen some of the best PT operators and engineers in the country have to take the test multiple times to get it right ... some still haven't. It's all about being tossed into the fire and working your way out practically.

You see, this is the issue. Not a lot of people know what's involved in these courses. They see "Pro Tools Certification", look at the price, and make assumptions. To back up what TravisK said, whether or not the actual piece of paper means anything to you or not, the education is there. These courses are designed to make you a lot better at your job, which translates to value for money, and savings to your clients. Especially as a studio owner, how can this be seen as a negative?

[xtrmspl]

Originally Posted by Avening

The practical exams given by your instructor are extremely stressful, everything is timed ... if you go a second over the time limit for a given task, you fail. If you get under 90% on these exams, you fail. If you make an extra keystroke or mouse click, you fail. When it gets up to the expert level, the tasks, time limits, and expectations are quite honestly 10x more demanding than any session I've ever been in.

They are definitely not easy tests. All the instructors and lab specialists were certified at the university I went to for recording arts and several of the instructors were expert certified and a few were icon certified as well and they told us stories of how hard it was to pass the expert and icon tests. I congratulate those that went all the way especially the people that are expert certified, it takes a lot of time, money and dedication to accomplish that.

[jubb]

It is absolutely great training for anyone, the certification is more like an added bonus. If you're just getting into Pro Tools, there is nothing better than this. It helped me with my work flow big time.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Avening

Respectfully (and trust me, I mean that),

taken as gratis !!

Originally Posted by Avening

you haven't a clue as to what's involved in those classes.

I exactly know what's in the course - as an employer I'm bombarded constantly by digi and asked twice yearly to give industry advice on what i'd like to see in their educational programmes - i always respond. I also get this from SAE {who I loathe} and a couple of others. Even LIPA - who I like!!

Originally Posted by Avening

Who said anything about 3 days?

someone did!!

Originally Posted by Avening

It's not just a written test that you study for, take, then blammo ... there's your certification.
The focus is 100% on honing in on the skills you already have, and have learned in the reference manuals, and making you lightning fast at them ... utilizing and learning the tools from the manufacturer the way they were designed to be used. Passing these courses can take years ... not days. And another thing ... being a "certified operator" means the 210m level or above, not below.

never met ANY "PT certified" guy who's able to use the tools more efficiently than my guys or the team I use at Abbey Road. Takes years? There's nothing TOO PT. It's very strength is being simple a lucid!!

Originally Posted by Avening

After the 110 level, the course is 100% practical (with a small side written test). The practical exams given by your instructor are extremely stressful, everything is timed ... if you go a second over the time limit for a given task, you fail. If you get under 90% on these exams, you fail. If you make an extra keystroke or mouse click, you fail. When it gets up to the expert level, the tasks, time limits, and expectations are quite honestly 10x more demanding than any session I've ever been in. I have seen Juno award winning engineers flail and die on the expert exam. I have seen some of the best PT operators and engineers in the country have to take the test multiple times to get it right ... some still haven't. It's all about being tossed into the fire and working your way out practically.

my point is it doesn't address REAL WORLD SCENARIOS. the very fact that you give examples of "top class guys failing" mean it doesn't address the real user. You should NEVER conform to the tools - the tools should reflect what you, the end user, needs. To that end the best studio users have always been the guys experienced on the job. I had training on a Neve 88R a few years ago - it was a waste of time and money. The manual was poor too.... the best way was doing it.

I am constantly badgering digi to listen to their professional user base - it takes a long time to get them to implement the changes we need in the biz. They DO seem to be spending time focussing on the new users {which is obviously good for sales}....but this doesnt help the professional user...and that is where I stand. PT certified - wont hinder you in my place or in selling yourself to me. But if you try and sell yourself ONLY on this {and believe me many do} .... well it's just pointless!

Originally Posted by Avening

You see, this is the issue. Not a lot of people know what's involved in these courses. They see "Pro Tools Certification", look at the price, and make assumptions. To back up what TravisK said, whether or not the actual piece of paper means anything to you or not, the education is there. These courses are designed to make you a lot better at your job, which translates to value for money, and savings to your clients. Especially as a studio owner, how can this be seen as a negative?

Of course it's not negative - but the point of the course is to extract money from people. Its a business in itself.

[teo]

Originally Posted by dannygold

Well my bias should be fairly obvious from my signature line... but I will say this: Completing the steps needed to become a Pro Tools Certified Operator is NOT easy. The books are deep. I mean sure 101 is introductory but I bet many experienced users could not pass the 201 or 210 tests cold.

To put it another way one can learn a tremendous amount from these courses. I've seen people who own HD rigs and use them every day come out of certification much better pro tools operators. I don't know how that's a bad thing or "BS"" The course is developed by digi and shows off deep features and power user kinda stuff.

YMMV

And that should say a lot about the relevance of the course.A friend of mine just took 101 and was all excited about it,so I asked him what the test was like.I could not believe that it was a multiple answer,theory test!What relevance can that have with the real thing? I'm (really?) good with PT, but if you ask me something specific and less than obvious,I'm usually not able to answer wihtout a rig in front of me. Am I a lesser operator because of this?

[rhythmtech]

Originally Posted by teo

And that should say a lot about the relevance of the course.A friend of mine just took 101 and was all excited about it,so I asked him what the test was like.I could not believe that it was a multiple answer,theory test!What relevance can that have with the real thing? I'm (really?) good with PT, but if you ask me something specific and less than obvious,I'm usually not able to answer wihtout a rig in front of me. Am I a lesser operator because of this?

theres no point in even discussing the 101 dude, as has been clearly stated MANY times in this thread. thats like comparing a fine dining restaurant to mcdonalds. the 101 is merely an introduction to the software.

the 210m/p (and above) are the actual digi certified courses (in that its not until you pass a 201 that you can call yourself a certified operator).

[DaydreamInSound]

Well it's paying off for me.

I've obtained 210m, 220m and 210p within 2 years, so not a rushed intensive course, which is a different kettle of fish.

I was recording as usual over the time and just did the courses too. being forced to use complicated shortcuts, setup, workflows, etc over time, and just getting to know it in depth has given me so much more than you could learn yourself.

The post course certainly helped my workflow and knowledge of the system as a whole, a harder course than the music one.

I'm in the new studio in a couple of weeks, which is HD2. The other engineers barely know Pro-tools at all so i'll be going in training them up on PT while they train me up on tape!

I've got much more standing and knowledge in the studio than a fresh faced intern would.

Plus I did just enjoy doing the experience as a whole. I like always learning

[teo]

Originally Posted by rhythmtech

theres no point in even discussing the 101 dude, as has been clearly stated MANY times in this thread. thats like comparing a fine dining restaurant to mcdonalds. the 101 is merely an introduction to the software.

the 210m/p (and above) are the actual digi certified courses (in that its not until you pass a 201 that you can call yourself a certified operator).

Well my friend paid 600 euros to be "merely introduced" to the software...I call bull on that.

[rhythmtech]

Originally Posted by teo

Well my friend paid 600 euros to be "merely introduced" to the software...I call bull on that.

well unfortunatly digidesign arent known for their recession busting prices. we're all well aware of that.

but its not just digi, have a look at the prices that apple charge for logic and final cut certs. its extremely high. at least digi give you 2 tries at the exam before they charge you again. not apple!

anyway surely if you're going to do the 101 you have your sights set on going further? i think anyone that just pays for the 101 (and then leaves it at that) would 100% be better off teaching themselves, hence me saying that theres no point in even bringing the 101 into this discussion.

[Deviated]

Its worth it if you want to learn quckly without pulling your hair out reading books an watching youtube videos struggling thru all that pro tools has to offer.
The classes move fast and the tests are hard once you get past the 100s. Most of the cert. bashers could not pass.
I am certified and would recomend it for anyone serious about learnig pro tools quickly.
It will not make you a great mixer, get you a job(it could help), or give you any studio experience. But you will know pro tools inside and out. The rest is up to you.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Deviated

Its worth it if you want to learn quckly without pulling your hair out reading books an watching youtube videos struggling thru all that pro tools has to offer.
The classes move fast and the tests are hard once you get past the 100s. Most of the cert. bashers could not pass.
I am certified and would recomend it for anyone serious about learnig pro tools quickly.
It will not make you a great mixer, get you a job(it could help), or give you any studio experience. But you will know pro tools inside and out. The rest is up to you.

Honestly man - if people are struggling with PT then music recording probably isn't something to get into. It's so intuitive and straight forward from the outset..... certainly aint Logic under Emagic!! A good read of the manual and anyone should be halfway there.....

[djanogil]

I have the opportunity to do the training and certification for free here in France thanks to the great Performing Artists and Technicians Scheme we have, so I guess I'll do it if I have the time, it takes only ten days. ANd then I may give up Cubase who knows?