The kinks recording session

[Junkie]

Hi, I need some help for a recording session! We have a 60s project this semestar and my group are recording a Kinks track, You Really Got Me, and we've got to reproduce the same track in the best way we can.
Although we have a nice 40 channel Otari Status Desk with all the trimmings, we're only allowed to use 4 channels going to ADAT, which means we gotta bounce a truck load. Ive worked out there are about 8 pieces to record; drums, lead and rhythm guitar, lead and backing vocals, bass, piano and tambourine.
I thought of recording everything in mono like this: first take record drums, bass and rhythm guitar (basically the rhythm section) and tracks 1, 2 and 3 at once and then bounce these to track 4. second take record piano and backing vox (although lots of voices just record using one mic) and bounce to track 3. Take 3 record lead guitar and lead vox on the remaing 2 tracks with the lead vocalist also playing the tambourine as he sings.
Of course we'll be inserting lots of valve gear and mixing as we record and before we bounce tracks, mic's and outboard aren't a problem as we have limitless top notch equipment at our disposal.
Any suggestions and criticism about my techniques would be appreciated or any techniques that you use for these kind of situations, please let me know!!!

Thanks

[chetatkinsdiet]

I'd say your mono idea is a pretty good idea. I'd think the key is to use as much vintage gear as possible. Use an old drum kit with no more than 2-3 mics. I wouldn't close mic the kick and snare. Listen to the old record....it's just a room/OH mic on them. It'll take a bit of moving around, but I'd do that instead of adding more mics.

On guitars...use small tube amps. I'm talking Fender Champs, Airline, Silvertone, etc. Anything small with tubes. Dime the knobs and you're getting there.

Later,
m

[borau]

Get the instruments sound absolutely perfect, acoustically. Get the arrangement absolutely 100% perfect! Including different guitar parts, harmonies, etc.

Do not skip any detail.
Make sure the song sounds 100% like it should in the room.
Then you're 95% on the way of getting is close as you can get with the finished result.

Then use minimal miking. Ribbons and Tubes.... Bypass as much as possible of other gear. Bypass the console on the way in.
Mic the bass cab, keep a few feet distance, mic. the guitar amp, keep a little distance.
Vox amp perhaps? probably not fenders. English band wasn't it?

Drums; Bass Drum mic, at a little bit of distance, mono overhead, pretty close, but far enough to balance the kit.

Capture the band live, in a pretty big room. But standing close to each other.
Probably no room mics, only bleed.

Listen to the original to determine which parts are overdubbed. Many OD's from that era sounds kind of "on-top" of the rest of the sound because of the bleed in the original tracks. And the no use of room mics in the overdubs.

Don't use any digital reverbs. Set up a pair of speakers in the main room and record that as a chamber.

Thats at least some of the things I can think of, the most important thing being getting the arrangement and playing 100% right.

Now, the lead vocals......

[Jamz]

The Kinks!?...Don't forget drinking and fighting.

Joking. Sorry I know it didn't help but I couldn't resist.
Ray and Dave were known for their drunken rows.
The ideas listed above sound great.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by borau

Get the instruments sound absolutely perfect, acoustically. Get the arrangement absolutely 100% perfect! Including different guitar parts, harmonies, etc.

Do not skip any detail.
Make sure the song sounds 100% like it should in the room.
Then you're 95% on the way of getting is close as you can get with the finished result.
.

Absolutely!!! If you don't have it right in the room, you're in deep trouble. Then save yourself a generation and cut the rhythm section to one track. good luck.

[loudist]

Back in those days, the recording technique was to compress or limit every instrument going in on the tape in order to keep the recording level persistant and as close to zero as possible.
This was done for improving signal to noise of the tape formulations of the day.
The sonic component of compression was not the reason for doing it but was a 'benefit' anyway. It also made doing those pre mixes a lot easier.
This is a very large component of the character of the sound.

Also, usually during a bounce, there was an instrument being recorded live along with the bounce onto the bounced track along with the others off of tape.

[borau]

???

AFAIK, A Lot of those studios didn't even have compressors,

And certainly not one for every source.

Some tube and tape saturation perhaps, but not compressors on every channel.

Infact probably only for mastering

[MarkRB]

.....And don't forget to mix it back to tape, Hard.

[Junkie]

nice suggestions, the live room is fairly spacious with low ceiling and plenty of mobile baffles etc and yes, the band wanna play live like the original 60s bands. we got a nice TL Audio 8 channel Valve module which we'll more than likely insert into every channel to get rid of that solid state sound. original spring reverbs are gonna be at hand so effects and dynamics are sorted (might cheat with a couple of focusrite liquid channels!!), i think the main challenge will be getting the original instrument tones and careful mic positioning.
do u think i could get away with 1 overhead ribbon on the whole kit? listening to the original track the drums aren't too prominent anyway.

thanks

p.s. has anyone else noticed the small piano part just before the chorus?

[Junkie]

i was also concerned that if i was to record the vocalist and the tambourine then compression may F things up a bit.... what would you guys do with the four tracks, what order would you record them in? probably drive a load of gain into the valves for the overdriven guitars (will be using vox and rivera amps by the way)

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Junkie

do u think i could get away with 1 overhead ribbon on the whole kit? listening to the original track the drums aren't too prominent anyway.

Yes. The drums will be mono, so the fewer mics, the less problem you'll have with phase. I think the Coles 4038 was very common for drums. Maybe with a kick mic.

The other thing is that leakage is part of the sound. Use as few mics as possible, and use solo as little as possible, if at all. And if the guitar is too loud in the drum mic, turn it down or move it away. It all comes back to getting it right in the room.

[max cooper]

I definitely think the spirit of the thing is a lot more important than getting the technical stuff right. I'd make sure the track is well rehearsed, and I'd make sure to record the rehearsal.

The Kinks have always been in my top 10!

I bought the Kink Kronikles when I was in Jr. High and they had a huge impact on me.

[wallace]

didnt' the kinks rip the amp speaker to produce the distortion on that track... (one of the first uses of distortion)?

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by wallace

didnt' the kinks rip the amp speaker to produce the distortion on that track... (one of the first uses of distortion)?

I've heard that story too. Also Jimmy Page is the rhythm guitar on the track. (Not that this helps re-produce the recording!)

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

I've heard that story too. Also Jimmy Page is the rhythm guitar on the track. (Not that this helps re-produce the recording!)

I'm pretty sure it was Dave Davies. Heavy metal was invented on that song.

And I've always thought the Kinks were the most under rated band of that amazing era. To me, they belong in the Pantheon of greats.

[Pohaku]

If you listen to Ray Davies on the Story Teller series, he tells the story of the "little green amp" and how Dave stuck a screwdriver (I think that was the implement - I'll have to go back and listen) into the speaker to get that sound. He is a wonderful raconteur -- as is obvious from his song writing. I love that band! thumbsup

[bukarin]

Try and avoid the ADAT! Have you got a tape machine? Real tape compression would help sonically and also help with the vibe of the session. If you can run Altiverb or something as an FX device you will get closer to authentic analogue reverb sounds. Also try and avoid EQing too much unless it is gentle and broad.

[JP11]

The key, as with most music, is to make the girls want to drop their knickers...

Kinks article

Kinks-You Really Got Me song facts

[blesscurse]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

I've heard that story too. Also Jimmy Page is the rhythm guitar on the track. (Not that this helps re-produce the recording!)

Oh, Please... not this again. Jimmy Page gets all sorts of credit for stuff he didn't do. (And he doesn't seem to discourage the rumors, either.) Even J.P. Jones had to debunk the gossip that Page played the lead guitar on Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy Man.... You Really Got me is totally Dave Davies, and his solo in She's Got Everything is better than what Page could ever have done for that song. I've even had people try to convince me that Page played Keith Richard's solo on Sympathy for the Devil, which is absurd if one listens to the lead guitar played on Between The Button, Satanic Majesties, Let It Bleed, etc. not to mention the beginnings of the solo documented by Godard.

Overreacting to a casual comment: who, me?

R.P.

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/ARTISTS/BOS.php3

[David R.]

Ah ha! Berklee project. I played on a bunch of those. Let see, on that song I played bass, piano, and sang lead and one of the backups.

Listen to the vocals, they are completly distorted!

Why do they have you doing it to adat? Keeping with the 'vintage' sound?

Good luck, have fun.

[borau]

Originally Posted by Junkie

we got a nice TL Audio 8 channel Valve module which we'll more than likely insert into every channel to get rid of that solid state sound.

OK, opinions my vary on this, but imho the "solid state sound" is something you get when you process things too much, not something you get rid of by inserting a tube somewhere in the chain. plus the TLA units is 90% solid state/ic's plus one half of a tube per channel simply as an effect. The tube saturation you get from those units have close to nothing to do with as an example how Telefunken V-series tube units saturate. (yes I have both TLA and Tele units)
You see one wonderful thing about tubes is, that in good units they do a lot of neccesary work with a very simple circuit, som there is less minute coloring from the circiuits themselves, but in some tube units a slighlty higher harmonic distortion. (a slightly higher level of musical harmonics that is) The good tube units are a very magic combination of transparent in a different way than other type of circiuit, and somewhat colored. (criminally generalizing here)
The main thing you are trying to achieve imho is not tube coloring, but the SIMPLICITY of the circiuits used back then.

So if I where you I would first and foremost find a way to bypass as much of the equiopment as possible. The desk on the way in, if the TLA's are pres, or bypassing the TLA's if they are not pre's.

Also make sure to NOT use the Rivera amp, use the Vox as much as possible.

[Drumsound]

The above suggestions are great and I won't repeat them. I will add to only use High and Low shelf EQ because the home-brew desks of that era generally had high and low.

[Junkie]

duly noted. We are only using ADAT im afraid, it would of been good to get an otari multitrack reel to reel, but what ya gonna do? bypassing the desk might be an option but it is the only way of getting from the live room to tape so we'll have to make do. What i was also thinking was getting a mix down to stereo on ADAT and simply master to analogue tape? i think mixing and editing with the equipment we have at our disposal will be pretty succesful but its just the whole recording to digital tape thats gonna be the down fall.

[loudist]

I would imagine that it was 3 track back then.
1. Whole backing track
2. Lead vocal, lead guitar (if the solo doesn't step on the vocal or visa versa.)
3. Backing vocals along with piano or percussion when backing isn't singing, you have to analyse what leaves when the backing vocal are in.
One must remember that they made recordings very quickly back in those days. I'll bet it didn't take them 3 hours to record that song, mix included.

If you have a 2 track tape recorder, consider recording the music backing track mixed live and compressed onto one track mono. Do a few takes so you have editing possabilities. After recording and editing the tape, transfer that to adat as a safety, but continue to work on tape using the other track for lead vocal. When that is done then transfer both tracks to adat again but on a different portion of the adat tape and finish the 3rd track overdubs.
I don't agree that compressors weren't in every studio, possibly they compressed the buss to the tape instead of every single input.
Hitting tape really hard in those days didn't sound all that great because of the tape formulations of the day, and then there is the issue of adjacent track crosstalk across the heads with super hot recorded magnetic flux.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by blesscurse

Oh, Please... not this again. Jimmy Page gets all sorts of credit for stuff he didn't do. (And he doesn't seem to discourage the rumors, either.) Even J.P. Jones had to debunk the gossip that Page played the lead guitar on Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy Man.... You Really Got me is totally Dave Davies, and his solo in She's Got Everything is better than what Page could ever have done for that song. I've even had people try to convince me that Page played Keith Richard's solo on Sympathy for the Devil, which is absurd if one listens to the lead guitar played on Between The Button, Satanic Majesties, Let It Bleed, etc. not to mention the beginnings of the solo documented by Godard.

Page DID play hundreds of sessions in the 60ies, so did J.P.J. Do you really think or even expect that he kept track of all of them? Did anybody at that time care about the long term impact of this 'Pop stuff'?

If 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' ISN'T Page then I'm Jim Morrison. Listen to those fuzz sounds.

My impression is rather the opposite, Page did at various times deny playing on for example the Herman's Hermitt stuff while producer Mickie Most said it was all Page...

The subject of the 'Sympathy for the devil' solo is a very interesting one. I often thought about this, NOT because of rumors or anything but rather from my own very subjective impression.
I love Keith but I would bet a lot of money that 'Sympathy' isn't him doing the solo.
Naturally I can't proof it but there's something about the phrasing that doesn't sound like Keith IMO. The soloing on 'Get yer ya ya's out' is way different, much looser, 'sloppier' and nowhere near as 'dead-on' as on the studio track.

I'm 100% sure though that it's NOT Page on 'SFTD', nor did I ever hear such a story. It doesn't sound like page at all, perhaps more like Clapton 'in disguise' (the steely, piercing sound of this and other 'BB' solos like 'Stray Cat Blues'.)
But I don't think it's Clapton either.

My guess? 'BB' was produced by Jimmy Miller who also produced Traffic at that time. If you listen to Dave Mason's soloing on tracks like 'Dear Mr. Fantasy', well there's a certain 'immedeacy' in Mason's phrasing and a 'ice-picky' touch to his tone that IMO is very similar to the playing on 'Sympathy'.

I might be totally wrong but it's fun guessing this stuff, isn't it?

I'm also pretty sure that it's Ry Cooder on 'Honky Tonk Women', others like Sonny Landreth have also suggested this.
Again, I love Keith's playing but the phrasing on 'Honky Tonk Women' is way different than how Richards plays it live. Ry Cooder was officially featured on the Jagger solo track 'Memo from Turner' that was recorded at roughly the same time.
If you compare the tone/phrasing to 'Honky Tonk Women', well again I get ideas......

In these modern times we really should have 'solo detector' software! You can do it with handwriting, so why not with sonics too by analyzing attack, phrasing, etc

[Junkie]

ENOUGH ABOUT JIMMY BLOODY PAGE!!! haha

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

The subject of the 'Sympathy for the devil' solo is a very interesting one. I often thought about this, NOT because of rumors or anything but rather from my own very subjective impression.
I love Keith but I would bet a lot of money that 'Sympathy' isn't him doing the solo.
Naturally I can't proof it but there's something about the phrasing that doesn't sound like Keith IMO. The soloing on 'Get yer ya ya's out' is way different, much looser, 'sloppier' and nowhere near as 'dead-on' as on the studio track.

I'm 100% sure though that it's NOT Page on 'SFTD', nor did I ever hear such a story. It doesn't sound like page at all, perhaps more like Clapton 'in disguise' (the steely, piercing sound of this and other 'BB' solos like 'Stray Cat Blues'.)
But I don't think it's Clapton either.

My guess? 'BB' was produced by Jimmy Miller who also produced Traffic at that time. If you listen to Dave Mason's soloing on tracks like 'Dear Mr. Fantasy', well there's a certain 'immedeacy' in Mason's phrasing and a 'ice-picky' touch to his tone that IMO is very similar to the playing on 'Sympathy'.

I might be totally wrong but it's fun guessing this stuff, isn't it?

I'm also pretty sure that it's Ry Cooder on 'Honky Tonk Women', others like Sonny Landreth have also suggested this.
Again, I love Keith's playing but the phrasing on 'Honky Tonk Women' is way different than how Richards plays it live. Ry Cooder was officially featured on the Jagger solo track 'Memo from Turner' that was recorded at roughly the same time.
If you compare the tone/phrasing to 'Honky Tonk Women', well again I get ideas......

In these modern times we really should have 'solo detector' software! You can do it with handwriting, so why not with sonics too by analyzing attack, phrasing, etc

I am of the same thinking. Used to think JP on SFTD but lately I believe perhaps Clapton. Wrong thread to go into details but had to chime in and agree.

[blesscurse]

The SFTD solo is pure Keith Richard. For antecendents,
check out the biting, penetrating guitar tone and bends on the song "The
Lantern" off Satanic Majesties. Check out other Beggars stuff like the lead tone/technique in the outro of "Stray Cat Blues." The off-the-cuff Chuck Berryish but bent lead guitar inserts on "Amanda Jones" (especially the last verse) on Between
the Buttons. There's a logic and a development that leads from the more Chuck Berryish stuff up to his Beggars work and later. And compare stylistically the main
solo in the song "Gimme Shelter." It's almost like a slower version of the
SFTD solo, or at least it has several stylistic congruencies (as one
would expect, since they're both Keith).... I get a sense (my conjecture as
someone who's played electric guitar for a few decades) that the solo on the
Beggars version of SFTD was wrenched out in the moment rather than
labored over and perfected over a lot of time. I'm not sure if anyone, Keith or Page
included, could absolutely precisely duplicate every last bit of its
timing/tone. In the film One Plus One, there is a moment where Keith is playing lead with a tone/style quite close to the actual solo.

As confirmed by the session's arranger and bass player, John Paul Jones, the lead guitar on "Hurdy Gurdy Man" was played by Alan Parker, and the drums by Clem Cattini.

The part that The Stones borrowed/stole from Ry Cooder for HTW is a version of a traditional country blues ruff. I've heard versions of it in recordings that pre-date HTW by many years. What makes HTW so special is the snap of the chordal rhythm guitar playing that is pure Keith. By the way, Brian Jones' slide playing (like that on "No Expectations" -- see the Rock'n'Roll Circus film clip of him playing it live) developed prior to the "Memo from Turner" period....

(I started using/stealing Keith's 5-string open tuning and chordal suspensions in 1972, back when Keith was still Keith.... not the cartoon character that he later became.)

[doorknocker]

blesscurse,

I would be happy to learn that it's indeed Keith soloing on 'SFTD', no problem. But how do you know? if think you tend to speak in absolutes and that's not possible,sorry....

Yes, the 'Stray Cat Blues' lead sound is similar to 'SFTD' but that doesn't proof anything, they might both be done by somebody else.

An example: It took years till 'we' learned that other than Mc Guinn, the Byrds didn't play on 'Mr. Tambourine Man', it was done by session guys at the producer's insistence. Does it change anything? No. It's still the same great track.

Getting back to the 'SFTD' solo. To me, the solo on 'Gimmie Shelter' sounds 100% like Keith Richards, that's what I meant by the 'sloopier' feel of say the 'SFTD' live version and it's the same here. I think it's a TOTALLY different feel than 'Symapthy'. The devil is in the details!

I haven't seen 'One plus one' in a long time, I remember footage of Keith playing some great rhythm stuff but I don't remember any solos, gotta find it somewhere. (Or an EDIT with just the Stones portion, the 'political' stuff in there is artsy-fartsy bullshit at its worst!)


Anyway, sorry for hyjacking this thread, let's get back to the Kinks!

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by blesscurse

The SFTD solo is pure Keith Richard. For antecendents,
check out the biting, penetrating guitar tone and bends on the song "The
Lantern" off Satanic Majesties. Check out other Beggars stuff like the lead tone/technique in the outro of "Stray Cat Blues." The off-the-cuff Chuck Berryish but bent lead guitar inserts on "Amanda Jones" (especially the last verse) on Between
the Buttons. There's a logic and a development that leads from the more Chuck Berryish stuff up to his Beggars work and later. And compare stylistically the main
solo in the song "Gimme Shelter." It's almost like a slower version of the
SFTD solo, or at least it has several stylistic congruencies (as one
would expect, since they're both Keith).... I get a sense (my conjecture as
someone who's played electric guitar for a few decades) that the solo on the
Beggars version of SFTD was wrenched out in the moment rather than
labored over and perfected over a lot of time. I'm not sure if anyone, Keith or Page
included, could absolutely precisely duplicate every last bit of its
timing/tone.

A true fan. We share that in common. Yes! I know their material very well as well. Have you ever sat through the 8 CD box set of session outtakes from Satanic and some early BB sessions. I agree the solo was more of the moment but interpreting style is also very subjective. Keith's rhythm guitar work is iconic. His "Berryish" solos are the best. However, his more single noted solos never felt as in command as those of Mick Taylor. Keith's bends, touch and feel are different here.
Just a theory but I never heard Keith play quite like that again. Do you actually think that any of his solos on any of the live recordings of that song even come close? Especially in feel? I've never heard it on live recordings or in concert but "It's Only Rockin Roll" is still right there.
The Stones were looking to replace Brian. Beatles, Stones, Clapton were all friends hangin out together. Clapton recorded with the Beatles "While My Guitar Gently Weeps". Stones RnR Circus had Clapton on git and Keith on Bass for "Yer Blues". It was also rumored the Stones asked Clapton to replace Brian and he of course refused. There is also a recording of "Brown Sugar" that has an alternate solo by Clapton. Perhaps while hangin out Clapton played the SFTD solo with 2 of his fingeres taped up. LOL! Just a theory. It was common place for people (especially names) to sit in and not always get an official credit. You'll notice the credits on BB thanks....friends.

Originally Posted by blesscurse

In the film One Plus One, there is a moment where Keith is playing lead with a tone/style quite close to the actual solo.

Yes! But why no footage of him playing the guitar in SFTD? Only bass.

Originally Posted by blesscurse

The part that The Stones borrowed/stole from Ry Cooder for HTW is a version of a traditional country blues ruff. I've heard versions of it in recordings that pre-date HTW by many years. What makes HTW so special is the snap of the chordal rhythm guitar playing that is pure Keith. By the way, Brian Jones' slide playing (like that on "No Expectations" -- see the Rock'n'Roll Circus film clip of him playing it live) developed prior to the "Memo from Turner" period....

Again, it's in the execution of the part. I seem to remember Cooder having some sour grapes over that relationship. I think it was for not getting writing credits though.
Brian played slide from the git go. "Red Rooster", "Wanna Be Your Man". He was a big Elmore James fan. Brian wasn't even around for HTW though.

Originally Posted by blesscurse

(I started using/stealing Keith's 5-string open tuning and chordal suspensions in 1972, back when Keith was still Keith.... not the cartoon character that he later became.)

That's a good one.

This really should be another thread. This is a Kinks thread. Sorry.