What Kind of Mic Pre to use for a Sam Cooke voice?

[jpeele]

I'm doing a little shopping for new gear and wanted to get a few opinions from the folks here at GS.

What is the advantage of having a clean pre or a more colored pre?

I know at the end of the day, it's about the performance. Given you have a legendary singer walk in your studio today, what kind of pre do you use?

1. What advantages would a clean pre have over a colored pre when recording vocals?

2. Do engineers use more than one type on one recording? Maybe a clean pre for the backgrounds and a more colored tone for the lead?

3. Is a more transparent pre better when stacking a lot of background vocals?

4. Is it that the clean pre has more clarity or does it's advantage come in capturing a more accurate source? Perhaps it's to not tamper with the character of the vocalist's tone by not adding any coloration? I don't know.

So, if you had Sam Cooke recording in your studio, would you want a colored sound like the Neve or would you want something transparent like the Grace? For those of you who are not familiar with who Sam Cooke is, some of his recordings are "You Send Me", " A Change is Gonna Come", "Chain Gang", "Cupid" etc.

Maybe you have a different suggestion as far as gear. The specific gear is not really the question. I'm really curious to know more about the method. Colored or Transparent or both? I'm talking vocals only.

Please forgive the the long post.

[DarkSky Media]

'fraid there aren't any universally "right" answers to most of your questions. Partly because there are so many different colors, some of which stack well and others of which are best reserved for highlights or "spot color". And of course it is dependent on genre and creative intent as well as on the specific timbre of the instruments and voices, the performance and the room acoustics.

So a colored pre may be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on all these factors. For example, lots of folk like 1073 pres for vocals, which undoubtedly impart color, but they do so in a way that retains clarity and enhances forwardness and depth/thickness. Some other colored pres are generally less well received on vocals.

The use of a single pre for all tracks on a recording is the traditional (particularly console-based) approach, with the use of a mix of flavors being a more prevalent in the past decade or so. But both schools of thought are alive and well.

There are some colored pres that typically stack very well indeed. Others less so. It is very much a matter of opinion and taste (and it's *your* taste that matters when it comes to your own projects!).

Cleaner pres tend to add less thickness or additional harmonic content, and tend not to emphasize particular frequencies. While that is generally better for accuracy, it may (or may not) give you what you would consider to be the most subjectively pleasing result.

Personally, I like choices and have a mix of colored (Neve, API, Aurora etc) and clean (Crane Song, Avalon, AEA etc) on hand. It works for me - but YMMV.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by jpeele

So, if you had Sam Cooke recording in your studio, would you want...

I would want some candles and air freshener... I should imagine the brother doesn't smell to good these days.

[nobtwiddler]

I can ask my next door neighbor, Idris Muhammad....otherwise know as Leo Morris.
Who started playing drums with Sam when he was 15 years old!

Although, I doubt he would know, or remember much from back then.
Beside the fact he's far from a technical kinda guy....

I tried to get pick his mind about the details of Rudy Van Gelder sessions, as he was on 177 recording dates at Rudy's different studios, but he didn't remember but where the mics were placed...

I'll ask....

[area51recording]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I would want some candles and air freshener... I should imagine the brother doesn't smell to good these days.

Beat me to it...

If a voice like Sam's walks into your studio you could record him w/a POS Radio Shack mic and get great sound....

[Revren Jesse]

Originally Posted by area51recording

Beat me to it...

If a voice like Sam's walks into your studio you could record him w/a POS Radio Shack mic and get great sound....

Yes... but what preamp?

[Raider]

Kind of like asking, "What kind of golf clubs does Tiger Woods use?".
Because it's assumed if you use the same clubs he uses you'll get similar results. But many people believe that too.

[beats workin']

Believe me, I'm firmly in the camp of putting a big smiley-face on a question like this. But, it is why I keep an Altec 1591 in the rack. For that era/style, this pre puts the right grit into the sound, whether it's on snare, guitar or vox.

[nevusmusic]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I would want some candles and air freshener... I should imagine the brother doesn't smell to good these days.

Fletcher Sam was murdered. "The Brother" seems a little racist to me.

[jpeele]

Thanks for the responses.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out buying the same clubs that Tiger Woods uses right now. lol

Yeah, I agree that knowing what gear a singer like Sam Cooke would use may or may not yield the same results. At the end of the day he, like just every other singer in this world, has a unique tone that he would have regardless of the pre amp or vocal chain put in front of him. I really used the name to generate a response.

What I've been contemplating was more along the lines of what methods are used to determine what kind of pre to use.

I guess it boils down to a few things:

1. There is a reason why you have singers, engineers, guitarists and so on. Each of them play different roles because no one man can do it all. There are very few who can do multiple things and be great at them all.

2. Singers should focus on singing and getting the best performance possible. Singers probably should not worry about the vocal chain being used.

3. Today's musical climate has somewhat hindered the development of talent. Bedroom musicians these days have become the singers/rappers, songwriters, engineers, photographers, web designers and record label execs. No wonder the quality of music has suffered. We wear too many hats.

4. I think one person above said it best, You just have to decide what's best for you. I'm going back to the basics and focusing on being the best artist I can be. I'll let the engineers who dedicate their life to know which pre or mic to use. I'll just deliver the performance.

Thanks.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by jpeele

...I'll let the engineers who dedicate their life to know which pre or mic to use. I'll just deliver the performance.

Thanks.

Yea. Great watershed moment. thumbsup

[imo]

I can get a lot of juice out of a question like this actually. Sam Cooke has always been my favorite singer, and a huge influence on my singing. I prefer his Soul Stirrers era stuff to his pop vocals, but the way he is able to eke out emotion in the middle of such a sophisticated presentation is pretty spectacular.
I have chased mics and preamps, looking to get some of the response that he gets when he opens his voice up. Of course it is his voice, but also the way the mics, tube preamps, and the tape react to the midpush of his voice is COMPLETELY different than the way it would sound in a modern studio. I love the brash sound that comes out, partially the focus of his voice, and partially the gear pleading for mercy. When i hear this, it really pulls at my emotions.
I have found that i get the best results with tube mics in reverberant rooms, going into tube preamps. BOth of mine are DIY, but have nice saturation when you lean into them. I don't record to tape, so i don't have the luxury of that, but i'm able to get some of that energy using a couple of stages of pre's, maybe a light touch of LA2A, gainstaging it to bring in some crunch.
I love my Neve pres, but that is yet another sound to me. Fizzier when pushed, sounds like transistors, as it should.
Sam Cooke--yeah..
Ian

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by imo

I can get a lot of juice out of a question like this actually. Sam Cooke has always been my favorite singer, and a huge influence on my singing. I prefer his Soul Stirrers era stuff to his pop vocals, but the way he is able to eke out emotion in the middle of such a sophisticated presentation is pretty spectacular.
I have chased mics and preamps, looking to get some of the response that he gets when he opens his voice up. Of course it is his voice, but also the way the mics, tube preamps, and the tape react to the midpush of his voice is COMPLETELY different than the way it would sound in a modern studio. I love the brash sound that comes out, partially the focus of his voice, and partially the gear pleading for mercy. When i hear this, it really pulls at my emotions.
I have found that i get the best results with tube mics in reverberant rooms, going into tube preamps. BOth of mine are DIY, but have nice saturation when you lean into them. I don't record to tape, so i don't have the luxury of that, but i'm able to get some of that energy using a couple of stages of pre's, maybe a light touch of LA2A, gainstaging it to bring in some crunch.
I love my Neve pres, but that is yet another sound to me. Fizzier when pushed, sounds like transistors, as it should.
Sam Cooke--yeah..
Ian

For the pre...try and LTD1 or a TG MKII (Chandler Limited), if they don't get you that Sam Cooke sound you don't have a Sam Cooke textured vocalist. The sound you are chasing is in the guy's voice, not the pre amp. Back then, they most likely used a Neve 1073.

[Omega Arts]

Amazingly sad day when you have to explain who Sam Cooke is!

[bwrecordings]

Cry me a river is so classic.

I was once singing it and had a pseudo valley girl call me out for getting the melody to justin timberlake wrong. If I wasnt such a gent I would have pulled her hair.

Rickk

[First Aid]

Originally Posted by nobtwiddler

I can ask my next door neighbor, Idris Muhammad....otherwise know as Leo Morris.
Who started playing drums with Sam when he was 15 years old!

Although, I doubt he would know, or remember much from back then.
Beside the fact he's far from a technical kinda guy....

I tried to get pick his mind about the details of Rudy Van Gelder sessions, as he was on 177 recording dates at Rudy's different studios, but he didn't remember but where the mics were placed...

I'll ask....

wow. as in 'lorans dance' and played with galt mc dermot?

my drumming hero.

[vernier]

He sang through tube gear of the era.

[che_guitarra]

I feel the need to answer this as the "you can't sound like him unless you are him" lecture is about as revelvant to the post as telling you my favorite brand of shoes. If the guy DIDN'T want to know what he used then why would he have posted to the forum, right??!


The sound you're after is the 610. Used by Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, and on most of the other Motown, R'n'B, and Soul records of the day. As far as I know most (if not, all) Stax recording sessions were tracked through on a Putnam 610 console...

Thses days still made by Universal Audio in the form of the 2-610 or Solo 610. I've got a pair - it's the best pre tone i've ever come across for male vocals barr none. Put gain on 7, output level to suit and voila - the sound of soul power

[johnwayne]

Originally Posted by Omega Arts

Amazingly sad day when you have to explain who Sam Cooke is!

[vincentvangogo]

Originally Posted by area51recording

Beat me to it...

If a voice like Sam's walks into your studio you could record him w/a POS Radio Shack mic and get great sound....

So how come they didn't all just use Radio Shack mics and save themselves a fortune?

[ears2thesky]

You might also try the Universal Audio 710 Twin-Finity preamp. It's got both tube and solid state tone so you can go for a vintage tube sound or a modern FET sound or any balance between the two for $800. All the reviews I've read rave about it.

[johnwayne]

I like my LA-610. Nice, fat and smooth to my ears!

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by vincentvangogo

So how come they didn't all just use Radio Shack mics and save themselves a fortune?

Spot on vincentvangogo. Just love it when you read in "High End" on "Gearslutz" about getting "great sound..." with a "POS Radio Shack mic". Stunningly tragic.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by che_guitarra

The sound you're after is the 610. Used by Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, and on most of the other Motown, R'n'B, and Soul records of the day. As far as I know most (if not, all) Stax recording sessions were tracked through on a Putnam 610 console...

Thses days still made by Universal Audio in the form of the 2-610 or Solo 610. I've got a pair - it's the best pre tone i've ever come across for male vocals barr none. Put gain on 7, output level to suit and voila - the sound of soul power

Universal Audio makes a unit called the "610" but that unit is MILES AWAY from what the original 610 sounded like [or how it behaved]. If you're happy with the unit under current manufacture, cool. If you think it is an "original" 610, you are WAY off the mark.

Peace.

[Rossco]

Has anybody got both units and able to comment or post samples?

[Sinewave]

Chandler TG 2 and a ribbon Mic thumbsup

[bongo]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Back then, they most likely used a Neve 1073.

Sam Cooke died in 1964, so I don' think they would have used a 1073.

[camus]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Universal Audio makes a unit called the "610" but that unit is MILES AWAY from what the original 610 sounded like [or how it behaved]. If you're happy with the unit under current manufacture, cool. If you think it is an "original" 610, you are WAY off the mark.

Peace.

Why hasn't anyone tried to make a "genuine" 610 copy/clone? Too expensive?

FWIW UA had a video with a recording done with an original 610 console. Unfortunately the band was rather lame (sort of limpid easy listening fusion kinda crap) and the results sounded nothing like an old Capitol / United Western Studio 3 recording...

[andychamp]

I've got nothing to say on the subject, I'm just waiting for Bob Ohlsson to chime in .

If he had anything to do with Sam Cooke, that is. But he's usually pretty well-informed about that era.

[JCRockit]

Originally Posted by fletcher

i would want some candles and air freshener... I should imagine the brother doesn't smell to good these days.

roflmbo!!!!!!!!!