Advice Needed: building recording studio - audio to and from the live room?

[Darksun]

Hi all,

I've been reading posts here for some time, but this is my first post!

I'm in the process of designing and building a new studio.

The live room is in a very old church building which sounds AMAZING and after discussions with my acoustician we want to leave the church building unmodified as much as possible.

For that reason we are considering locating the control room in a hall, that is approximately 30 - 40 meters away from this building.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to get the audio from the live room to the external control room? (and vice versa)

I've looked a little at MADI, but I'm assuming that would require the mic pres to be located in the live room, which isn't an option. Is this right???

At this point in time, I'm most likely going to purchase an SSL AWS900 as my main console, and some external neve mic pres. (feel free to ask about other equipment I'm intending to get, if this would help)

I would ned to be sending at least 24 chs from the live room, and enough back from the control room for headphone sends and re-amping, etc...

All help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks!

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Darksun

we are considering locating the control room in a hall, that is approximately 30 - 40 meters away from this building.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to get the audio from the live room to the external control room? (and vice versa)

I've looked a little at MADI, but I'm assuming that would require the mic pres to be located in the live room, which isn't an option.

There are some fine choices for locating remotely controllable mic pres, including Harrison, Millennia, and Grace, among others. If you need a max of 32 channels, you can do 32 channels of MADI at 96kHz on a single wire.

[Eganmedia]

You've probably already considered it, but you're going to need one heck of a communications system between the rooms... and a reliable assistant who can be in the main room while tracking. Someone is going to have to move the mics bit by bit until they sound right. Someone is going to have to make sure the musicians keep their instruments aimed in the right direction. You're probably going to want video feeds to and from the control room as well, and an adequate playback system so everyone doesn't have to traipse into the control room after every take to make decisions.

It sounds like a great space, and the potential to record killer sounding music is certainly there, but there are a whole lot of things to consider when you can't see the artists (and they can't see you) during the recording.

Best of luck! Keep us posted!

[Darksun]

Originally Posted by Eganmedia

You've probably already considered it, but you're going to need one heck of a communications system between the rooms... and a reliable assistant who can be in the main room while tracking. Someone is going to have to move the mics bit by bit until they sound right. Someone is going to have to make sure the musicians keep their instruments aimed in the right direction. You're probably going to want video feeds to and from the control room as well, and an adequate playback system so everyone doesn't have to traipse into the control room after every take to make decisions.

It sounds like a great space, and the potential to record killer sounding music is certainly there, but there are a whole lot of things to consider when you can't see the artists (and they can't see you) during the recording.

Best of luck! Keep us posted!

Thanks for the reply!

These things have certainly been weighing heavily on my mind!!!

Definitely, I'll need to have a v.good video system set up so I can clearly see the live room and performers. And yes, I'll be setting up a good playback system in the church so the performers don't need to be making unnecessary trips to the control room!!!

Originally I was considering building the control room in the church itself, but my acoustician just thinks this will compromise the great acoustic too much. And would have taken up a lot of room in a fairly small space. (and I agree with him)

(if people are interested I'll post some photos of the recording space)

I would have loved to build a control room that attaches onto the existing church, but due to its age it has a heritage listing, and so this sort of modification to the building wouldn't be possible.

I'm just wanting to see if there is a good option for the transfer of signal from building to building.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Darksun

I would have loved to build a control room that attaches onto the existing church, but due to its age it has a heritage listing, and so this sort of modification to the building wouldn't be possible.

I'm just wanting to see if there is a good option for the transfer of signal from building to building.

Well check out how they solved that problem at the Ryman Auditorium. There are some great solutions out there, but well beyond the cost of an AWS900.

[TehGuitarist]

Aphex digital snake. Look it up

Or some mad long multicores.

[Darksun]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Well check out how they solved that problem at the Ryman Auditorium. There are some great solutions out there, but well beyond the cost of an AWS900.

Hi! Thanks for your replies! I've just been looking over your studio construction and it looks AMAZING!!! Awesome stuff!

Price is definitely an issue and the reason I thought the AWS900 would be good was it gives good DAW control with 24 SSL mic pres and dynamics (that beautiful G series buss compressor!)...at a very good price point in my opinion!

If I was to go with all remote mic pres via MADI - any suggestions for a console/control surface (assuming that an ICON D-Control is out of my price range) for the control room (for a tools HD system)

[surflounge]

google search --> "digital audio snake"

[Darksun]

Originally Posted by TehGuitarist

Aphex digital snake. Look it up

Or some mad long multicores.

Would a multicore of up to 40 m be possible???

Would there be unacceptable signal degradation over such a large distance?

Really, I want to use pres and inserts in the control room - not remotely from the live room. Are there any digital systems that send mic level signals to go into pres at the other end???

[TehGuitarist]

Well i personally use a proco momentum system at work, but i don't know how it would stand up in a studio situation (I work at a convention centre). Sounds great though. I read an interview with the guy who runs aphex and he said people had run it that far with no problems at all. If you decide to go the momentum system, it runs over cat6 cable. And i don't see any reason why the multicore wouldn't work. Once again, we use a 100m one at work. I've never heard any signal problems. But once again, thats in a live situation.

[Darksun]

Thanks for the replies!

If I was to go for remotely controlled preamps then any suggestions as to a digital console ? If I was wanting to spend around 50 000 -> 100 000 US.

Also, how would you patch in compressors, etc...

Would you need a MADI to analogue converter and then another set of AD convertors before going into tools? I'm a little confused!!!

[brianroth]

40 Meters is NOT all that long of a run for purely analog "snake" cables.

Bri

[Keagan C]

^^^
Agree with above. 40m aint that long. Now i don't know what the layout is like in respect to the buildings. Ie, can you run the 40m in a straight line. If not it will get longer and longer with turns and the like. Consider also the possibility of moisture getting in the cable unless it is ducted or the likes.

I would suggest that, as many people are already worried about their a/d conversion stage, why would you want to introduce another? And the remotely controlled preamps... yuk. I've personally never liked the concept that there would have to be an additional preamp stage before the conversion whether it was controllable or nominal... yukky.

Just go with some good multicore. Klotz, Mogami, Canare, etc. Hopefully the great sound of the room will negate any loss from the distance (if any appreciable loss could even occur). It's not like your using bad gear is it.

[The Byre]

Step one - get this book -

Amazon.com: Home Recording Studio Build it Like the Pros (0082039530345): Gervais Rod: Books

Step two - read this book (it covers absolutely EVERYTHING and more!) -

Amazon.com: Recording Studio Design, Second Edition (9780240520865): PHILIP NEWELL: Books

Step three, visit some studios and see how they have solved all the problems of signal flow.

[Darksun]

Originally Posted by Keagan C

^^^
Agree with above. 40m aint that long. Now i don't know what the layout is like in respect to the buildings. Ie, can you run the 40m in a straight line. If not it will get longer and longer with turns and the like. Consider also the possibility of moisture getting in the cable unless it is ducted or the likes.

I would suggest that, as many people are already worried about their a/d conversion stage, why would you want to introduce another? And the remotely controlled preamps... yuk. I've personally never liked the concept that there would have to be an additional preamp stage before the conversion whether it was controllable or nominal... yukky.

Just go with some good multicore. Klotz, Mogami, Canare, etc. Hopefully the great sound of the room will negate any loss from the distance (if any appreciable loss could even occur). It's not like your using bad gear is it.

Thanks for that!

I think that as long as I use good quality multicore and run it underground that keeping it analogue is the way to go. I agree about the remote mic pres...it doesn't sit well with me and just restricts your choice of pre and future purchases!

And this way at least I'll have just ONE A/D stage. (Hopefully using apogee clocking and convertors)

As soon as the studio begins its build - I'll put up a post in the appropriate section to keep you all posted!!!

Any other comments are more then appreciated!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by brianroth

40 Meters is NOT all that long of a run for purely analog "snake" cables.

Bri

+2. Not a big deal.

[mudrock]

I agree with the analog people. Any signal loss will be less than what an A/D-D/A would do. Make sure it is highest quality and you should be fine. You could test it by purchasing single runs of a few brands of cable and then running an AC extension alongside it to see what kind of hum rejection you are getting. Run a space heater off the AC cable to get some current flow, an put a high gain mic pre at the end of your cable runs. Braided shields and larger gauge wire (22-20AWG if you can get it) would be where I would start.
Speaker cable at about 12-10AWG and some kind of a long line driver for guitar level signal.....
Good luck with your studio, Ive been there.

[toulcit]

on the communications side get 1 tv and 1 cam and role out 40 metres bnc coax cable. So you can see what is going on. On of course a talkback mic, and with that equipment you can play god in church :D, you can see waht's going on and talk to them without being there. Joking offcourse don't want to step on anyone's toes here. But video can have a great advantage here, when you work on long distances.