Vocal chain for acoustic/vocal?

[halfmoonman]

Hey,

While my set up is quite basic to say the least.

Apogee duet into logic. (I only record vocal, acoustic guitar and piano)

I got some cash to spend and want to create a nice vocal chain,
Willing to spend about 3000-4000.

Ideas please?

There are some deals I've found on tube tech mp1a , focusrite red 7, Phoenix Audio DRS-1, Neumann's and AKG.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a musician not an engineer, just looking for a warm, smooth tone!

Also buying blind. So wont get to test.

[s0nguy]

whatever you do... buy used on GS. especially if you are buying blind.

that way you can sell it and not take a huge loss (if any) if it's not working for you
I've purchased a lot of my great gear here... lots of honest ppl here.
-s0nguy

[toulcit]

Easy :D

Aurora audio GTQ2 dual preamp/ eq
into a Urei 1176
And then you will also need an eq on your mix and a comp

dual ssl (5000 series) 502's and 505's (lineamps are handy for their filters) a rack
and a Polygram/ Philips stereo mix bus compressor (ppl say it is a ssl 4000 series clone, for me it's a philips, but i got it, i love it)

aurora audio gtq2 +/- 1500 euro's
2 urei 1176 600 euro's
2 x ssl line amp 200
2 x ssl eq's 120
Polygram comp 1300
rack 700

total 4420 (little over budget :D)

Oh yeah then you still won't have mics to record with :D
instead of the aurora you could have yourself build a yamaha pm1000 preamp which would save you at least 500 euro's but i recommend going for the aurora (haven't heard it), but it's build by a former Neve engineer who is praised on this forums. And the rack of the ssl 5000 series modules is build by a former SSL engineer (recycled audio).

cheers,

[jacktadoussac]

I'm assuming you're acquiring the Apogee Duet -- and perhaps most of your stuff will be live off the floor, as in no overdubs. But of course, you have the potential to add them if you wish.

I would suggest a pair of RE20 (or SM7B) so that you can experiment with stereo miking (as well as mono), and use the mic-pres that are built into the Duet.

If you want to open up the door to the gear acquisition hobby, in addition you could consider a pair of ribbons or condensers, but usually these cost much more.

The RE20 is a good all purpose mike -- by this I mean you can record in bedrooms and living rooms, and it will pick up other players in the room like drummers and rhythm guitar players.

I use a pair of these with a discontinued Lavry sound card -- called the Mini PRSII -- a USB powered ADC with a mic pre for dynamic mics. It provides way more satisfaction that a Konnect 24D...you can concentrate on making music and not fiddle faddling with technology...

When I get a Mac I'll probably go for a Duet.

[gainreduction]

Originally Posted by halfmoonman

I'll be the first to admit I'm a musician not an engineer, just looking for a warm, smooth tone!

Then get something simple, easy to use and quick to setup. Stay away from tweaky stuff with lots of features as it probably will only frustrate you.

How about a second hand Great River or Portico preamp ? Good sounding units and hard to screw up the sound coming out of them.

When it comes to microphones it´s close to impossible to say anything intelligent without hearing the voice(s) you´re recording.

[jwleeman]

I'm not sure how usable external mic pre's are with the Duet, because there aren't any line-level inputs. You could try inserting line-level inputs on the Duet, and using microphone mode, keep the gain at zero, but you might risk some loss of sound quality. I'm really not sure how the Duet is built. Some audio interfaces allow either a line-level or a mic-level signal on the same input and use the incoming voltage to determine whether to engage the built-in mic pre's. You might want to ask Apogee about that.

~Jeff

[Guitar Zero]

Originally Posted by jwleeman

I'm not sure how usable external mic pre's are with the Duet, because there aren't any line-level inputs. You could try inserting line-level inputs on the Duet, and using microphone mode, keep the gain at zero, but you might risk some loss of sound quality. I'm really not sure how the Duet is built. Some audio interfaces allow either a line-level or a mic-level signal on the same input and use the incoming voltage to determine whether to engage the built-in mic pre's. You might want to ask Apogee about that.

~Jeff

I'm pretty sure the software that comes with the duet let's you choose line or mic input. At least that's what I remember when I had one.

Originally Posted by halfmoonman

Hey,

While my set up is quite basic to say the least.

Apogee duet into logic. (I only record vocal, acoustic guitar and piano)

I got some cash to spend and want to create a nice vocal chain,
Willing to spend about 3000-4000.

Ideas please?

There are some deals I've found on tube tech mp1a , focusrite red 7, Phoenix Audio DRS-1, Neumann's and AKG.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a musician not an engineer, just looking for a warm, smooth tone!

Also buying blind. So wont get to test.

If I were you I'd keep using the duet, and get some nice mics and maybe some room treatment. The pre's and converters on the duet are ample to get great sounding recordings. Something like a Pearlman TM-1, an AEA R84 so you can do some mid side guitar recordings, and maybe throw in an SDC for guitar as well, like a Joly modded Oktava MK-012, or something similar. If you couldn't make great sounding recordings with that set up, it won't be the gear's fault.

[Seditionary]

i'd upgrade the duet if possible and get some better converters/clock. the duet does sound really good for the price, but does it make sense to spend so much on preamps if you don't have some pretty good converters?

i recorded everything on my first record with a presonus 80 dollar tube pre into a firewire 410 -- you make do with what you have

i did lose sound going into the 410 though as i wasn't able to bypass the pre's.

i'd check out somethin' like an apogee ensemble, and then a good single channel of pre -- daking, chandler, etc. and an sm7b. that will get you a much cleaner, warmer sound and be a huge step up. for a brighter vocal sound than the sm7b, i think the blueberry mic sounds really good, but i had been using one from a few years ago (from 2006) as i bought it used and have read on here that the older ones sound better than the newest ones being made.

that all being said, the duet sounds good for the price... recorded all the instruments on our cover of "fire in cairo" with a duet. even for the drums. 57 on the overhead, d112 on the kick. used an re20 into the duet for all the vocals... My Old Kentucky Blog: Get It Get With It : UPDATE : Gangi : a music blog that parties with unicorns. -- looking forward to start tracking with some better converters and preamps though... man, upgrading to some better apogee stuff, working on a better clock and converter, is making the new sounds and recordings i have in the works so much fatter, clearer, with more depth, etc.

hope this helps

thumbsup live without dead time thumbsup

[jwleeman]

I'm pretty sure the software that comes with the duet let's you choose line or mic input. At least that's what I remember when I had one.

Yup, he's right. I went back and confirmed.

[RedWallStudio]

It's kinda hard to go wrong with a Vintage U-87. I found one that that was not the prettiest thing to look at, but sounds great.. and I got it for around $1700. That leaves room for a nice tube pre. My La Chapelle pairs nicely with the U-87. It also goes nicely with the Avedis MA-5 (which is a bit more forward and aggressive sounding). After that, I would save your dough and get a nice tracking comp... few folks around here have anything but good things to say about the Purple MC-77. I found a Pair of LA-3A's for around 2k... so you might be able to find a single U for around a grand... those are very smooth.

[Fletcher]

Get a couple of really good multi-pattern microphones (Gefell, Brauner, Bock, TELEFUNKEN, etc.)... plug them into your "Duet" and record stuff. You can do piano with two good mics, you can do guitar and voice at the same time if you switch them into "figure 8" pattern... you should be all set.

Best of luck!!

Peace.

[Guitar Zero]

Originally Posted by GANGI

i'd upgrade the duet if possible and get some better converters/clock...

...i'd check out somethin' like an apogee ensemble,

The ensemble and the duet have the same converters.

[superama]

I love the Royer SF12, SF24, or SF24V for you. I used an SF12 thru a GTQ-2 to record a singer/songwriter with acoustic guitar. Perfect rejection between mics in this dual mono application. Otherwise it is an incredible point and shoot stereo mic. The SF24 might be best to pair with the Duet. The SF24V is unbelievable.

[Guitar Zero]

Originally Posted by superama

I love the Royer SF12, SF24, or SF24V for you. I used an SF12 thru a GTQ-2 to record a singer/songwriter with acoustic guitar. Perfect rejection between mics in this dual mono application. Otherwise it is an incredible point and shoot stereo mic. The SF24 might be best to pair with the Duet. The SF24V is unbelievable.

I would love to hear the SF24V, but holy cow, $5800. I'd have to sell a couple of my kids! ... Anyone want to buy a good hard working boy?

[musicmatt]

I'm really digging my TLM 49 with an SM81 for acoustic tones through my API A2D, and it really does a swell job on male vocals to boot.. takes EQ really well.

Something along the lines of a Great River would work too, but you should check out the TLM 49.

[garymusic]

Still my fav is the AKG C414 TLII mic. Couple it with a good tube mic pre. I use an Avalon. Both used for under $2000 used give or take a few. I just saw a C414 P48 go for $700 on ebay. Just one of those mics that will hold their value and sound great. I keep trying to find something better for my voice and don't. Had a U87 and a bunch of others and keep going back to the AKG. Still own a Blue Kiwi which is also a nice mic but a bit bright sometimes. The AKG has a more rounded color.. But the Avalon really helps. Need a tube in the chain.

-Gary

[jacktadoussac]

I had the pleasure of chatting with one of the owners of a pro-audio store in Montreal, one that carries lots of high-end goodies. For his own purposes, as in spending out of pocket money, is a Mac laptop, paired with a Duet, and whatever mics he chooses, say AKG 414s, or a pair of high quality dynamics. This is someone who essentially has a stake in a candy store...but for the sake of proper record keeping would have to take the goodies out on a rental contract -- because of the new vs used pricing...to avoid scratching product.

My thought is that once you start adding boutique preamps you no longer have that portability, or ability to throw most of your kit into a padded knapsack and do your thing.

Now if Great River also included a Great ADC that plugged into a Firewire cable that would be something,

[Seditionary]

Originally Posted by Guitar Zero

The ensemble and the duet have the same converters.

many apologies for misspeaking. was working on an ad-16 / rosetta 200 for da... and man, that really does something, even to a cheap pre-sonus tube pre. the entire top end opened up going through the apogee ad-16 vs. the firewire 410 or duet. the signal becomes much clearer and the vocal (and everything else) sits better in the mix with a better converter and clock... more detailed, warmer, more top end. i figured, mistakenly, that an ensemble was a step up from the duet, but the converters and clock are the same -- only difference is that you get more pres and can record at a higher sample rate (but i've never recorded anything above 96!).

+2 on the aurora gtq-2 pre. chandlers are also fat and nice and warm and colored. dakings are brighter and punchier. all just opinions. as everyone always says on here -- try to demo some mics and some pres if you can and find which sounds work best for you.

[bewareofdogs]

Originally Posted by GANGI

i'd upgrade the duet if possible and get some better converters/clock. the duet does sound really good for the price, but does it make sense to spend so much on preamps if you don't have some pretty good converters?

Absolutely true.
As a warm sounding preamp, i'd suggest this tube channel strip.
Get a decent mic as well, a U87 is what would make you happy

[latestflavor]

Originally Posted by halfmoonman

(I only record vocal, acoustic guitar and piano)

I got some cash to spend and want to create a nice vocal chain,
Willing to spend about 3000-4000.

up that budget seriously or lower your expectations about the quality of the equiment. of course, much more has been done with less and that sounds like the direction you'll need to go.

A "grand slam home-run" would be needed for a single mic to do your vox, acoustic, and something to pass as "good enough" on piano. You'll need a second for stereo XY on the piano. The vintage 87 pair is a good theory, same with something like a manley gold, but you could pair the second xy piano mic with something interesting (cheaper) like one from blue or whatever is a deal on fleabay.

Pres could def be chandler, GR, pacifica, GTQ, API, and maybe you could just stay away from comps till the budget dictates. Or at least one LA2A or CL1B and record clean on piano (us em for vox and guitar) and compress itb for the time being.

So if you really need to stick in budget you're looking at chinese (Groove tubes, the american "boutique" american (*cough*chinese) mics - i'd look at a pair of Rode K2 or pair of GT67 if they still sell them. You could come closer to that budget but still make a respectable recording.

Also, don't forget the most important thing- room treatment / design. but hey, nobody ever wants to hear about that even though its at least as important as your mics.

[choinga]

I use KM-184's and a Pearlman TM-1 and do pretty much all acoustic vox/guitars and other instruments.

Here's something I threw together to put a MP3 up of the TM-1.

My chain is TM-1 -> Aurora Audio GTQ2 Mk III -> CraneSong Trakker -> UA2192 for vocals.

Same chain minus the Trakker for the KM-184 which is on the guitar.

Only using EQ on the GTQ2...for mix down I run the UAD Limiter, Portico 5043 and the UAD Fatso Sr. (modified 'tape buss' preset) on the 2-buss.

For verb it's a combo of the UAD EMT 250 for 'space' and a Bricasti M7 plate IR in Altiverb 6.

I love the TM-1. I've had mine about a year, I guess...can't remember what tube I have in there - I'm pretty sure it's the US one (not the german). It's not super flexible...you get what you get...but it's warm and fuzzy and sounds fantastic in either cardiod or omni.

[CZ101]

Originally Posted by halfmoonman

Hey,

While my set up is quite basic to say the least.

Apogee duet into logic. (I only record vocal, acoustic guitar and piano)

I got some cash to spend and want to create a nice vocal chain,
Willing to spend about 3000-4000.

Ideas please?

There are some deals I've found on tube tech mp1a , focusrite red 7, Phoenix Audio DRS-1, Neumann's and AKG.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a musician not an engineer, just looking for a warm, smooth tone!

Also buying blind. So wont get to test.

Are you planning on recording everything separately - i.e. - overdubbing or do you fancy recording vocals and whatever instrument together at the same time?

[ProducerBoy]

Originally Posted by choinga

I use KM-184's and a Pearlman TM-1 and do pretty much all acoustic vox/guitars and other instruments.

Here's something I threw together to put a MP3 up of the TM-1.

My chain is TM-1 -> Aurora Audio GTQ2 Mk III -> CraneSong Trakker -> UA2192 for vocals.

Same chain minus the Trakker for the KM-184 which is on the guitar.

Only using EQ on the GTQ2...for mix down I run the UAD Limiter, Portico 5043 and the UAD Fatso Sr. (modified 'tape buss' preset) on the 2-buss.

For verb it's a combo of the UAD EMT 250 for 'space' and a Bricasti M7 plate IR in Altiverb 6.

I love the TM-1. I've had mine about a year, I guess...can't remember what tube I have in there - I'm pretty sure it's the US one (not the german). It's not super flexible...you get what you get...but it's warm and fuzzy and sounds fantastic in either cardiod or omni.

choinga, nobody inspires me to spend money like you. You've helped to sell me on the TM-1 & 2192... now I'm looking at the Aurora. Low and behold, you're at it again.

[choinga]

HAHA - too funny...well, I trust you are digging both the TM-1 and the 2192. If someone can't make good music with those two...they need to take up basketweaving.

Why the Aurora?

[halfmoonman]

It will be a mixture of recording separately and together,
Basically recording whenever the mood dictates.

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by choinga

Here's something I threw together to put a MP3 up of the TM-1.

Man, that sounds great.

Jasper