Tips for recording drums in a less than stellar room.

[alvagoldbook]

I'm in the middle of converting a room in my house into a low end studio, so I hope the high end guys here don't mind me asking for some advice. The room is about 16 by 22. I'm planning on putting wood flooring in there to enhance the drum sound (there's carpet in there now, that just needs to go!). The space is wide enough (I hope) to get a decent drum sound, but the ceilings are pretty low, just shy of 8 feet. Not planning on building a vocal booth, I figure I'd use a reflexion to minimize costs for the time being. Any suggestions anyone can give for this less than ideal situation?

[B.Santillan]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ion-acoustics/

[alvagoldbook]

Please forgive the crudeness of this diagram (I'm no graphic designer), but this is the basic layout I have planned for the room.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

I'm in the middle of converting a room in my house into a low end studio, so I hope the high end guys here don't mind me asking for some advice. The room is about 16 by 22. I'm planning on putting wood flooring in there to enhance the drum sound (there's carpet in there now, that just needs to go!). The space is wide enough (I hope) to get a decent drum sound, but the ceilings are pretty low, just shy of 8 feet. Not planning on building a vocal booth, I figure I'd use a reflexion to minimize costs for the time being. Any suggestions anyone can give for this less than ideal situation?

Diffusion, diffusion, diffusion. Oh, and did I mention diffusion? LOL

While you will need some absorptive acoustic treatment, drums sound much better in "live" spaces than "dead" spaces. Diffusion is a good way to control the "liveness" without killing it.

Too many rooms with low ceilings and wood floors start to sound very midrangy... So look for ways to NOT absorb too much top and bottom end while at the same time not letting the top and bottom end get out of control.

A little absorption goes a long way. You can always add more later...start with the least amount possible. And really look into using diffusion to help keep the drum sound "live" while taming/controlling unwanted flutter echo and reflections.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

Please forgive the crudeness of this diagram (I'm no graphic designer), but this is the basic layout I have planned for the room.

Try putting a snare drum in front of the fireplace (brick? Stone? tile?) and compare the sound of that to the snare drum where you are thinking of putting it. I have a feeling the drums might sound better in front of the fireplace... but test it out to see.

[Sigma]

i think he said recording ..not sound treatment

i'd tight mic the kit and put a tunnel on the kick drum

[alvagoldbook]

Yeh, the kit is a small kit. Just a simple 4 piece. I've never experimented with a tunnel before, but I'll give it a shot. the Kick is 22 by 20 as it is (Gretsch catalina) and sounds pretty big as is. Trying to deaden it a bit.

Part of my concern with putting the drums in front of the fireplace (brick!) is that it's close to the window. I'm a bit worried about pissing off neighbors and getting some outside sound pollution from the window. Not much traffic out on the street, as I live at the end of a cul-de-sac, but I do have a neighbor across the street who likes to pump up the bass on his car stereo. Shouldn't be a problem 98% of the time I'm guessing.

The room isn't perfectly rectagular, there is a low spot in the ceiling where the HVAC comes through, I'm sure I'll have to throw something around it to tame echo. There's also a little lip that extends out into the room maybe 6 inches on the right hand side of the door.

This room is in the basement of my house, but it's one of those semi underground basements. Not really underground, except a small portion of the back wall. Minimal, if any moisture issues.

Not sure what flooring I should use. Thinking of using wood, as I think the bare concrete would just be ugly and hard to keep clean.

I figure I'll have to do some corner diffusion, but not exactly sure what to use, how much to use with the low ceilings.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

The space is wide enough (I hope) to get a decent drum sound, but the ceilings are pretty low, just shy of 8 feet.

Be careful with too much cymbals on your overheads, cause you might not be able to place them high enough. If that's the case consider placing them in front of the kit instead. Do a few tests.

[LAstudio]

Probably best to stay away from ribbon mics for your overheads... figure-8 will NOT be your friend.

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

I figure I'll have to do some corner diffusion, but not exactly sure what to use, how much to use with the low ceilings.

Don't worry so much about diffusion. Start with the low end. Your problem is going to be the boxy sound caused by your low ceiling. (And close micing your drums will not solve this problem - especially in your overheads and/or room mics) You're going to need lots of bass traps. When you have enough bass traps to cure this problem, you probably won't need to worry as much about higher frequency reflections. The guys as GIK are very helpful.

[alvagoldbook]

Originally Posted by LAstudio

Probably best to stay away from ribbon mics for your overheads... figure-8 will NOT be your friend.

Yeh, I figured it would be. And I love those Cascade fatheads too. For the time being I'm sticking with condensers on the overheads. Not sure if I'm going to work with a room mic or not. Might try using multiple mics on the kick instead.

[alvagoldbook]

Originally Posted by Marjan

Be careful with too much cymbals on your overheads, cause you might not be able to place them high enough. If that's the case consider placing them in front of the kit instead. Do a few tests.

I'm going to have to experiment a bit for sure. I was thinking of mic'ing the OH's in a plain 3/9 configurment, but I'll check throwing them in the front as well. X position maybe?

I'm going to be using Rode NT5s for my OHs until I can get a few other toys to play with.

[glissando]

I have a pretty strong feeling that you will never use overhead tracks in that room...you ar gonna need absorption above the kit to try and take away the ceiling, Bass traps for sure and I would build some gobos. They will really help focus the sound around the kit...I also agree with the fireplace as a good spot...I like the sound of brick

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

Yeh, the kit is a small kit. Just a simple 4 piece. I've never experimented with a tunnel before, but I'll give it a shot. the Kick is 22 by 20 as it is (Gretsch catalina) and sounds pretty big as is. Trying to deaden it a bit.

Part of my concern with putting the drums in front of the fireplace (brick!) is that it's close to the window. I'm a bit worried about pissing off neighbors and getting some outside sound pollution from the window. Not much traffic out on the street, as I live at the end of a cul-de-sac, but I do have a neighbor across the street who likes to pump up the bass on his car stereo. Shouldn't be a problem 98% of the time I'm guessing.

The room isn't perfectly rectagular, there is a low spot in the ceiling where the HVAC comes through, I'm sure I'll have to throw something around it to tame echo. There's also a little lip that extends out into the room maybe 6 inches on the right hand side of the door.

This room is in the basement of my house, but it's one of those semi underground basements. Not really underground, except a small portion of the back wall. Minimal, if any moisture issues.

Not sure what flooring I should use. Thinking of using wood, as I think the bare concrete would just be ugly and hard to keep clean.

I figure I'll have to do some corner diffusion, but not exactly sure what to use, how much to use with the low ceilings.

use a pillow and weight inside the shell and first butt it dead against the beater head ..... then slowly move it out away from the head ..[like i'm talking just backing off on the weight like Norwegian pootie hairs at a time] till it rings out at the desired length..

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by glissando

I have a pretty strong feeling that you will never use overhead tracks in that room...you ar gonna need absorption above the kit to try and take away the ceiling, Bass traps for sure and I would build some gobos. They will really help focus the sound around the kit...I also agree with the fireplace as a good spot...I like the sound of brick

wrong..if you use overheads in a choke mic situation 16-26 inches from cymbals..and roll off at minus 12-18 dB octave below 500hz making the ovds CYMBAL mics..it does work

part of engineering is making the most out of a less than stellar recording environment

[alvagoldbook]

I was thinking I may have to do exactly that. Just throw a HP filter on the OH's and use them as cymbal mics. But I'd like to try to make the room sound as good as I possibly can without breaking the bank. That way I can have something to use as a back up if the direct mics sound less than spectacular.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

I was thinking I may have to do exactly that. Just throw a HP filter on the OH's and use them as cymbal mics. But I'd like to try to make the room sound as good as I possibly can without breaking the bank. That way I can have something to use as a back up if the direct mics sound less than spectacular.

then you want to treat the room ..in a room that small the rt60 is so low as not to be an issue,,it's HF slap and room resonant tone

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Sigma

wrong..if you use overheads in a choke mic situation 16-26 inches from cymbals..and roll off at minus 12-18 dB octave below 500hz making the ovds CYMBAL mics..it does work

part of engineering is making the most out of a less than stellar recording environment

.. in a room like that, you will PROBABLY be dealing with an inordinate amount of cymbal/Hat bleed in all the OTHER mics...my point is that you would PROBABLY be making the most use of that less than stellar room by accepting it's shortcomings and learning how to deal with it...so tell me again...when you have too much cymbal in your snare and Tom mics (and plenty in any room mics), which part of engineering dictates the use of Overhead tracks high passed at 500?

You are best off trying to take room reflections out of the close mic situation by using Gobos and ceiling absorption...that's just me though...obviously it's just an easy fix...take those overhead mics and hi pass them at 500 and drums will be golden tutt...right Sigma

[alvagoldbook]

If I work with ceiling absorption, then wouldn't that just make the tracks sound dry? Should I just try to make everything as dry as possible and fake a room sound with verb? What should I do about the floor? thin carpet? Thick carpet? Wood? Tile?

[RbShffr]

Your room seems like it's got some potential.

Wood floors are great, but you probably want to put a rug under the drums.

I would experiment with different places to set up the drums. Just take the snare drum around with you and play on it in a variety of spots - some you think will sound good and some you think will sound less good. Then you'll get a good feel of where the different modes interact in the room. Set the drums up where this sounds best.

Then buy or make a few acoustic panels (4' by 2' by 2 or 4 inches of 703) to put on the ceiling above the drums and and the nearest wall. This won't make the sound too dry, but will clear up some dirt from reflections that are too early to be useful.

Have someone play the drums and walk around to find a couple good spots for room mics. You can probably find at least two spots where the drums sound good.

One issue with treatment is that once you start, it's hard to stop. Once you get your low mids under control, you'll notice the flutter echo. So it's good to have some panels to move around and address specific issues as they come up unless you have the inclination to treat the room completely.

No need to worry about a room that isn't perfect. Just keep an open mind and listen for good sounds.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by glissando

I have a pretty strong feeling that you will never use overhead tracks in that room...you ar gonna need absorption above the kit to try and take away the ceiling, Bass traps for sure and I would build some gobos. They will really help focus the sound around the kit...I also agree with the fireplace as a good spot...I like the sound of brick

Don't worry so much about diffusion. Start with the low end. Your problem is going to be the boxy sound caused by your low ceiling. (And close micing your drums will not solve this problem - especially in your overheads and/or room mics) You're going to need lots of bass traps. When you have enough bass traps to cure this problem, you probably won't need to worry as much about higher frequency reflections. The guys as GIK are very helpful.

These 2 posts pretty much gave you spot on advice. A few things though I would add.

1)You could put absorption on the ceiling above the drum kit which would solve the problem of nasty reflections.
2)Diffusion is GREAT as it can open up the sound, but don't use it close to the kit. Diffusion needs space to work right. See the following about diffusion.
Diffusion is a Wonderful Tool by Jeff Hedback
How Diffusion Really Works. Spotlight on MASSIVE Mastering.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by glissando

.. in a room like that, you will PROBABLY be dealing with an inordinate amount of cymbal/Hat bleed in all the OTHER mics...my point is that you would PROBABLY be making the most use of that less than stellar room by accepting it's shortcomings and learning how to deal with it...so tell me again...when you have too much cymbal in your snare and Tom mics (and plenty in any room mics), which part of engineering dictates the use of Overhead tracks high passed at 500?

You are best off trying to take room reflections out of the close mic situation by using Gobos and ceiling absorption...that's just me though...obviously it's just an easy fix...take those overhead mics and hi pass them at 500 and drums will be golden tutt...right Sigma

i tight mic those 1-3 inches off the deck....i never have cymbal problems in my toms

and cymbals in a snare??? errr the soc cymbal but that is an artifact of people who hit the snare light and soc hard and you deal with that in any room

[lobsty]

Whenever I've recorded kits in smallish room I've found the best results to be :
- close mic kick, snare and toms
- use a front of kick mic that provides the main bulk of your sound
- use overheads but quite low in the mix just to enhance cymbals and stereo spread

I've found this way I get a big full kit sound without emphasising the weirder aspects of the room. The FOK mic sound sbest to me if it's an LDC with a good valve pre and a fair whack of compression.

[svart]

Other than sound treatment, move the drums around the room. You will find a spot that sounds the best. Get them away from the walls and towards the center of the room.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by alvagoldbook

If I work with ceiling absorption, then wouldn't that just make the tracks sound dry? Should I just try to make everything as dry as possible and fake a room sound with verb? What should I do about the floor? thin carpet? Thick carpet? Wood? Tile?

The problem with making everything as dry as possible is you not only effect the sound of the room mics, you also effect the sound of the drums in the close mics.

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences. You can get a dead drum sound to work, but you will have to layer samples, which kind of defeats the whole point of trying to get your room to sound good in the first place.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

2)Diffusion is GREAT as it can open up the sound, but don't use it close to the kit. Diffusion needs space to work right. See the following about diffusion.
Diffusion is a Wonderful Tool by Jeff Hedback
How Diffusion Really Works. Spotlight on MASSIVE Mastering.

I disagree for a live room... for a control room I agree with you, you don't want to sit to close to a diffusor. But for tracking, some of the best drum rooms have diffusion RIGHT behind the drumset. Case in point:


Rumbo Studio B. Stone wall diffuser right behind the drumset.


Cherokee Studio 1, Stone wall diffusion in front of the piano (was also a great place to put the drumset).

And look at Bluejay studios live room. Blue Jay Recording Studio The two best places to put the drumset are either in front of the stone wall or the QRD diffuser in the middle...

Stone doesn't diffuse the mids as much as a constructed diffuser does, they mainly scatter the higher frequencies. But the concept is the same. For lack of a better description, drums sound best when they they sound like a "Gaaaaaahhhhhhh", not "Guh".


Also, here's a quote from the second link you posted:

"Q: How would these help in a live tracking room?

A: In a live room, we want it to be as the name implies, relatively live. But, we still need to get it under control in terms of decay times. We also want to get that 'big' sound. Diffusion can help to eliminate echo and produce a nice large sound without killing too much of the livliness. It does so by spreading the sound, causing it to move through more air and bounce off more surfaces which decreases the intensity of the sound. For decay time control, diffusion is normally used in conjunction with broadband absorbtion."

I would suggest some bass traps in the corners and then maybe a diffuser behind the drumset and possibly a second diffuser on another wall (but not near the listening position). Then some absorption above the drumset and at the first reflection points of the listening position. But that's just me...

[svart]

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences. You can get a dead drum sound to work, but you will have to layer samples, which kind of defeats the whole point of trying to get your room to sound good in the first place.

Respectfully disagree.

After doing some work on drums in (small) live rooms (like the one the OP is talking about), I've gone to dead rooms and find that I do MUCH less post cleanup/EQ/compression, etc. Of course I do mainly rock stuff and don't use a lot of ambient type drums either because they tend to just muddy up a thick mix. I also tend to get thicker drums this way because I'm not trying to cut all of the room mud out of the tracks either.

EDIT: I have to mention that these "live" rooms were too small for their live nature. A proper large room with good acoustics is still great, but who has access to those?

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

I disagree for a live room... for a control room I agree with you, you don't want to sit to close to a diffusor. But for tracking, some of the best drum rooms have diffusion RIGHT behind the drumset. Case in point:


Rumbo Studio B. Stone wall diffuser right behind the drumset.


Cherokee Studio 1, Stone wall diffusion in front of the piano (was also a great place to put the drumset).

And look at Bluejay studios live room. Blue Jay Recording Studio The two best places to put the drumset are either in front of the stone wall or the QRD diffuser in the middle...

Stone doesn't diffuse the mids as much as a constructed diffuser does, they mainly scatter the higher frequencies. But the concept is the same. For lack of a better description, drums sound best when they they sound like a "Gaaaaaahhhhhhh", not "Guh".


Also, here's a quote from the second link you posted:

"Q: How would these help in a live tracking room?

A: In a live room, we want it to be as the name implies, relatively live. But, we still need to get it under control in terms of decay times. We also want to get that 'big' sound. Diffusion can help to eliminate echo and produce a nice large sound without killing too much of the livliness. It does so by spreading the sound, causing it to move through more air and bounce off more surfaces which decreases the intensity of the sound. For decay time control, diffusion is normally used in conjunction with broadband absorbtion."

I would suggest some bass traps in the corners and then maybe a diffuser behind the drumset and possibly a second diffuser on another wall (but not near the listening position). Then some absorption above the drumset and at the first reflection points of the listening position. But that's just me...

when i first was learning Protools in an ex assitant of mines studio..he had a small tracking room and the diffusor behind the drums was great..i agree!

i think one of the rooms at Criteria did the same thing where they had the grand

[beats workin']

i've done drums in a 12 x 16 x 8.5 room for 20 years now. it wasn't until a couple of years ago that i got it right. getting rid of the phasing is really tough and is your primary goal. here's what worked for me:
- bought 3 mini-traps from Real Traps and suspend them in a cloud over the kit- outside panels angled slightly inward. they're on hooks so they can be taken down.

- Lots of bass trapping in the corners! You cannot have enough. Really, I have way too much experience (grief) with this. Either buy a lot of Traps or buy the 705 and cut it into triangles, and stack it floor to ceiling. Then place panels in front of that.

These two things will bring the room into control. Listen as you go and stop when you're satisfied with the sound.

Don't be afraid of ribbons w/ figure-8! I get great results with a coles or two over the kit, or for a more aggressive sound a u67 works great. keep it low. here's a pic- you can see the ceiling traps in the mirror. you can't see the rca 44 out in front of the kick, low to the floor.
best of luck with it- you can make just about any room work- it may not be "textbook" but it'll "your" sound- you just have to learn to work it.
david
---note: cat treehouse optional....

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by svart

Respectfully disagree.

After doing some work on drums in (small) live rooms (like the one the OP is talking about), I've gone to dead rooms and find that I do MUCH less post cleanup/EQ/compression, etc. Of course I do mainly rock stuff and don't use a lot of ambient type drums either because they tend to just muddy up a thick mix. I also tend to get thicker drums this way because I'm not trying to cut all of the room mud out of the tracks either.

EDIT: I have to mention that these "live" rooms were too small for their live nature. A proper large room with good acoustics is still great, but who has access to those?

+1! Drummers don't seem to mind my dead drum room with a low ceiling; one guy even said he liked it. I haven't anyone complain about the results either, and I get plenty of repeat business. I do have a Bricasti M7, and the dead room allows me to apply great sounding ambience to taste. But, to repeat with emphasis, you have to deal with the low end whether or not you want a dead room, otherwise your recordings will sound like drums in a small room. You can buy/build bass traps with a reflective front surface, allowing you to retain the liveliness while taming the low frequency issues, if you want to keep your room as lively as possible.