Klein & Hummel O300 vs Event Opals?

[vintagelove]

Short and simple.

Opals are awesome, tightest low end I have heard on a nearfield.

..... No hiss problems whatsoever on mine. Original drivers

[Mahklas]

Beats me how this tells you they'll integrate better.

Just one more reason. Think i need a pair able to go down to 40hz without audible distortion.... even if you have a set up with sub to work from 80hz below, your monitors won't really stop at that...

I think that Opals or Genelecs would fit much better into this collection of speakers - and would allow you another 13 years of unfocused speculation. K+H's are not for you.

Reason being ?
've been told K&H's O300 sound specially nice on mids. Considering that Genelec's are already on their way, wouldn't mind a different approach ... but still i wonder why they're so special as so many happy owners claim. Just need more details...

thanks for your time anyways

[Mahklas]

Originally Posted by vintagelove

Short and simple.

Opals are awesome, tightest low end I have heard on a nearfield.

..... No hiss problems whatsoever on mine. Original drivers

hiss shouldn't be a problem. MSP7's are louder for that matter...

How opals sound with acoustic guitars & percussion instruments + voice ?

[Elix]

@Mahklas
Haven't heard K+H O300 but having read about them here quite a lot I can summarize pros and cons for you based on other people's opinion. These are most common things you can hear (read) here on gearslutz:
Pros:
1. Exceptional detail and tone neutrality. Very good for acoustic/live instruments and vocal.
2. Bass is tight and full for many people.
Cons:
1. Power limitation kicks in early so you won't be able to crank them up like Opals, for example (well, Opals are probably the loudest ones in this sector like Fleaman said). You said you wanted to pair them with 21" subs? Their power might not be enough in this regard.
2. They are quite sensitive to placement. Some people reported problems with sound which may have been caused by speaker placement quite a few times.
3. They have a relatively narrow sweet-spot.
4. Price?

You might wanna try using a Search function for yourself and see how well it works here. Because I probably missed some points here and there.

P.S. Also, I admire Fleaman's patience and devotion in answering same questions over and over in different topics, but each time with a different angle taking in consideration the individual character of requests.

[Mahklas]

First of all, thank you very much for taking your time putting it all in detail.

Believe it or not, 've been reading every single thread on Gearslutz concerning Opals ( including the 37 pages long thread ), Twin 6 Be's , K&H's, PMC TB2SA's, etc ( even those about Trident, BareFoots, Geithain's ... ) from start to finish... in fact, that's what i've been doing the last month before registering here.

Anyways, it was too much info at the same time so they way you summarized it all make it much easier .

1. Power limitation kicks in early so you won't be able to crank them up like Opals, for example (well, Opals are probably the loudest ones in this sector like Fleaman said). You said you wanted to pair them with 21" subs? Their power might not be enough in this regard.

That's one of the contradictions i've found... some people say they're loud enough others don't . Not that i need exactly the power of the opals... but wonder if they'll be enough. Not that pair them with subs is mandatory ... could leave 'em on their own.

2. They are quite sensitive to placement. Some people reported problems with sound which may have been caused by speaker placement quite a few times.

Precisely, only issue i have with K&H's is that i need to place 'em in vertical, anybody tried 'em like this ? I know that Twin's,for example, seems to sound even better that way... not that sure if the same applies for o300's .

3. They have a relatively narrow sweet-spot.

Not a problem in my case.

4. Price?

No problem either. Can find 'em used in like new condition at some German stores.

You might wanna try using a Search function for yourself and see how well it works here. Because I probably missed some points here and there.

As explained, already did it... although most people were focused on rock & electronic music.

P.S. Also, I admire Fleaman's patience and devotion in answering same questions over and over in different topics, but each time with a different angle taking in consideration the individual character of requests.

I agree.I'm pretty aware that my question would seem hella repetitive, even though i needed some more details in order to finally choose one of the aforementioned options plus i won't be using 'em to work ... so, from what i've already read, seen Fleaman posting like dozens of times doing exactly what you just said. Didn't even thought he'd be replying this time , and i feel really thankful for that.

Also, i was concerned about one GS user posted about K&H's :

Solo tracks with instruments such as piano's, strings, flutes, etc, are reproduced with a very smooth clarity, natural and uncoloured. However in a busy track things are not as easy to identify.

anybody experienced something similar ?

@Peacock

Thank you very much for sharing your experiece. It really helps, as i know the sound of NS-10 ( MSP7's were designed by the same guy actually ) and also had the impression that Focal's pointed towards a similar ( not necessary the same ) type of sound.

This line is really interesting as it's what i'll be doing:

If I were going to use my monitors as studio mixing reference speakers and for listening to music the hands down winners would be either the K&H 0300D or the ATC 25.

What's your opinion on the K&H's playing tracks with several instruments at the same time ?

Also... have you tried vertical placement with your K&H's ( well, i'm assuming you have the typical side-mounted set up ) ?

Thanks again

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Mahklas

...only issue i have with K&H's is that i need to place 'em in vertical, anybody tried 'em like this ? I know that Twin's,for example, seems to sound even better that way... not that sure if the same applies for o300's.

A friend of mine uses the O300s vertical and is very happy with them like this.

What you need to be aware of is treble dispersion. As they are designed they give a wide horizontal dispersion and a narrower vertical one.

Using them vertical this will be reversed and you will get a wide vertical dispersion and a narrower horizontal one.

[Ben F]

Originally Posted by Mahklas

've been told K&H's O300 sound specially nice on mids. Considering that Genelec's are already on their way, wouldn't mind a different approach ... but still i wonder why they're so special as so many happy owners claim. Just need more details...

thanks for your time anyways

Speakers are very personal, you really need to hear them to make up your own mind. It's impossible to decide just by reading opinions. Just demo a few pairs with some reference CDs. I'd be going ATC, K&H, PMC- that dome midrange makes all the difference!

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Mahklas

That's one of the contradictions i've found... some people say they're loud enough others don't . Not that i need exactly the power of the opals... but wonder if they'll be enough. Not that pair them with subs is mandatory ... could leave 'em on their own.

Well if you use the 0300's with subs you'll relieve the internal amps from having to dish out the lows below the roll off freq and they will be able to crank MUCH louder/cleaner than if you run them full range.

As we all know, the low freqs suck pretty much All the watts from your amps.

Since you mentioned there are 0300's around you for sale, you should at least audition them first of course.

[Tube World]

Originally Posted by Ben F

Speakers are very personal, you really need to hear them to make up your own mind. It's impossible to decide just by reading opinions. Just demo a few pairs with some reference CDs. I'd be going ATC, K&H, PMC- that dome midrange makes all the difference!

I agree with you; just as many prefer the Focal Twins over the Opals unless you mix club music. However you may like the character of the Opals more. Really depends on your taste.

[Mahklas]

@ Ben F , Fleaman

Unfortunately where i live there's less than few places to audition good speakers ( just a few KRK's , Mackie's, Roland's ... ) .

My elder brother used to run an audio store ( closed like 10-11 years ago ) so i was able to listen tons of brands by then. That's why i have those B&W 801 Matrix S3 today and, in fact, that's why i ordered a pair of Genelec 1032 now... My brother owned a Bang&Olufsen center circa 1999, he also carried other brands at another store but he focused way too much on B&O... so i tested each & every model at his store several times to my heart's content, even though didn't like 'em that much ( always felt something missing, visually they were all ok with me ) ... one day he had a pair of 1032's around in order to repair something ( can't remember ) so once fixed, he tested 'em around 5-6 hours with several cds. Funny enough, i absolutely loved what i heard that time, after so much time around B&O's i finally smiled....

So that's it. Never listened to 'em again in the last decade.... but i need to check if they were as good as my memories tell me so...

Since then, there's only one hifi store around and a couple of pro audio stores with nothing more than a handful of budget speakers.... but Focals, Genelec, K&H's etc etc are nowhere to be found ...

Maybe i expressed myself pretty bad, but by "around" i mean that i can buy 'em online since i live in the EU so shipping cost wouldn't add that much

Definitely, wouldn't be around asking if i could audition what i'm interested in



@John Willett

Thank you very much. I really needed some confirmation.

BTW... how are the tweeters placed ? From what i've seen with similar 3-way monitors, guess they'll be on the out side.

Anyways, 've been thinking that worst case scenario i can switch the pro monitors on my 3 rooms. There's space enough for side mounting the K&H's at the room with the MSP7's so i just could place the Yamaha's or even the Genelecs where i initially planned to place the K&H's ...

All in all... thank you very much to all of you for your recent comments. Think i'll definitely go with the K&Hs. Maybe Opals would be just another 2-way ported speaker ( there's differences i know ... ) ... so a sealed 3way studio monitors with dome midrange highly regarded by its neutrality could be the different approach i want. Won't be buying more speakers after 'em ( got plenty for a lifetime already ) so i expect 'em to be great .

Thanks again !!

[Fleaman]

I wouldn't say Opals are just another 2 way ported. They seem tight to me.

Strangely, when auditioning Barefoots and 0300's in the same room, I felt the low on on both seemed loose (compared to the twins), and they are both sealed designs meant to do just the opposite. Coulda been the room, yet they were in a treated studio while I auditioned Opals in an untreated living room. In contrast the Twins (in the same treated room) had a tighter low end, though there was less of it.

I also have a pair of JBL LSR32's which are ported 3 ways with a 12" woof, and stangley their low end is also tight, not loose.

There might be a reason for this. The LSR32's have dynamic brakes on the woof's to prevent over-excursion and I believe the Opals have the same.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Mahklas]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

I wouldn't say Opals are just another 2 way ported. They seem tight to me.

Strangely, when auditioning Barefoots and 0300's in the same room, I felt the low on on both seemed loose (compared to the twins), and they are both sealed designs meant to do just the opposite. Coulda been the room, yet they were in a treated studio while I auditioned Opals in an untreated living room. In contrast the Twins (in the same treated room) had a tighter low end, though there was less of it.

I also have a pair of JBL LSR32's which are ported 3 ways with a 12" woof, and stangley their low end is also tight, not loose.

There might be a reason for this. The LSR32's have dynamic brakes on the woof's to prevent over-excursion and I believe the Opals have the same.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

LOL .... just when i thought all have been said & done.

Just for clarification: i meant to say, that considering that i already have two 2-way ported speakers and wanted something different, Opals would be closer to what i already have than K&H's .... not saying that Yamaha's , Genelec's or Event's are similar in any way.

Ok then... what it seems kinda suspicious to me is that most comments i read about opals here at GSz forums ( and that's something to say, considering the amount of comments surrounding 'em ) focus on the superb low end while K&H's users focus on the rest of the spectrum.

Many pointed that Opals aimed to neutrality as well, but from what i read on multiple threads many people that demanded excellence in other areas than the low end, tended toward other options ( K&H's , PMC's , Sonics Anima, etc etc... ) ... that's also one of the resons i'm ( almost ) decided on K&H's ...

[vintagelove]

If it helps any, my second thought about the opals was "natural".

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Mahklas

Many pointed that Opals aimed to neutrality as well, but from what i read on multiple threads many people that demanded excellence in other areas than the low end, tended toward other options ( K&H's , PMC's , Sonics Anima, etc etc... ) ... that's also one of the resons i'm ( almost ) decided on K&H's ...

'Neutrality' is generally 'opinion'.

This is why I've always tried to not say one monitor is more neutral than another, I've always tried to mention how one monitor sounds in Relation to another monitor.

There's no such thing as a neutral monitor. If there were, most recording engineers would agree on what monitor to use. Beside recording engineers, studio monitor manufactures also imprint what they think is a neutral monitor into their design. Truth is, all monitors are colored.

Reason being, there is no neutral source material. We can not 'hear' any recorded music before it hits a speaker, and what ever speaker that is, will color what we hear. There is no neutral recording, unless you use the same room, speakers and playback gear that was used on the recording (and assuming the producer/engineer's intent was to reproduce the live instruments as close as possible to how they sounded in the recording room).

You will get just as many people arguing that the twins are more neutral than 0300's or vice versa for Opals, or.....you get the idea.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

'Neutrality' is generally 'opinion'.

This is why I've always tried to not say one monitor is more neutral than another, I've always tried to mention how one monitor sounds in Relation to another monitor.

There's no such thing as a neutral monitor. If there were, most recording engineers would agree on what monitor to use. Beside recording engineers, studio monitor manufactures also imprint what they think is a neutral monitor into their design. Truth is, all monitors are colored.

Reason being, there is no neutral source material. We can not 'hear' any recorded music before it hits a speaker, and what ever speaker that is, will color what we hear. There is no neutral recording, unless you use the same room, speakers and playback gear that was used on the recording (and assuming the producer/engineer's intent was to reproduce the live instruments as close as possible to how they sounded in the recording room).

You will get just as many people arguing that the twins are more neutral than 0300's or vice versa for Opals, or.....you get the idea.

I agree with this.

Also, since monitors sound different in different rooms, it is really the monitor and listening space *combo* that sounds neutral (or not).

I find the K+H (O300 with O800 subs) setup to be the most neutral I've tried in my room (and according to my ears and needs/preferences). But I expect them to sound a bit different in other rooms.

In my room, FWIW, the O300s (with or without the subs) have a very tight and defined low end. They're certainly capable in that regard.

[hop.sing]

I don't know, if anybody needs another opinion about the o300s vs.opals, but just in case...
We have both in our studio, different rooms though, but we tested them in the same room while we got the opals (The o300s where there already).
My impression is, that they are really, really different, representing two very different ideas of sonic reality. Both useful in their own way.
The o300s have this mid driver, which lets you hear very deep into the mix, but I really find them difficult to get adjusted to in the bass and treble area. Contrary to a lot of statements here I find the bass kind of bloated and without any real punch and for my ears the treble area sounds correct but hard to judge if something is too much or not enough. Acoustic music is good to mix on those speakers, but for Pop, especially with synthetic kiks and artificial sounds in general the Opals are much better IMO.
They do not sound so refined, but every unbalance just jumps into your face on the opals, the mids have a little less resolution than the o300, but still enough to judge everything properly and I always check the mids on a single auratone anyway every once in a while.
But the extreme areas of the frequency spectrum and the balances are so easy to judge on those speakers, I can really follow my instincts during mixtime and the mix translates very good to the outside world. Whereas the o300s need more homestereo and car radio listening sessions to get things right.
best Tobias

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by hop.sing

The o300s have this mid driver, which lets you hear very deep into the mix, but I really find them difficult to get adjusted to in the bass and treble area. Contrary to a lot of statements here I find the bass kind of bloated and without any real punch

Yeah, that's what I felt relative to other monitors. Barefoots were similar, had more bass, but also seemed to lack tight punch.

Opals seemed to have better low end than either and with a tight punch.

I think you're the first to have both 0300's and Opals in the same place/room.

[hop.sing]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

Yeah, that's what I felt relative to other monitors. Barefoots were similar, had more bass, but also seemed to lack tight punch.

Opals seemed to have better low end than either and with a tight punch.

I think you're the first to have both 0300's and Opals in the same place/room.

But I have to stress, like others have already, that it is all a very subjective. The other guys in the studio love the klein and hummels, they are used to them and they are producing great mixes (in conjunction with NS10s and avantones). But they are mostly recording and mixing rock and acoustic music and voiceover, while I am producing Pop with a lot of synthetic sounds and thats where the opals IMO really shine.
Instruments like NI Reaktor (Digital tools in general) or some synthesizers are easily capable of having a lot of energy in the very highs or lows and you have to have a monitor that reveals everything that happens at the very extremes of the frequency spectrum in a unforgivable way, so do not overlook anything what happens there and can find a good overall frequency balance.

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by Peacock

Some of your info is just not correct. I am saying this in a friendly way. Both the K&H 0300D and the Opal Event have similar frequency response.

Freq response graphs are just a very slight indicator of how we perceive bass response. There are also low freq distortion plots that can be measured but hardly any speaker manufacture dares to publish (with exception to some speaker manufactures like JBL).

I think the whole; 'sealed cabinet = tight lows and ported = looser lows' theory is not absolute. Meaning, there is no guarantee a sealed cab will get you punchy bass or that a ported cab will get you loose bass. There is just too many other variables in speaker design that aren't accounted for.

The physics of it don't necessarily seem to add up either. Take a kick drum. Double head it, sealed (no port on the resonate head), hit it with a mallet. Boomy. Change nothing other than to port the front head = less boomy. Hmmm . Make that port even bigger, = more punch, less boom.

The one thing that does seem to add up is how a sealed speaker cab rolls off the low end compared to a typical ported cab. The sealed cab has a much slower slope roll off, but it starts much higher freq curve wise. The same speaker/cab but ported will extend the bass lower before it starts to roll off, but it's roll off slope is much steeper. This I seem to hear a lot in the differences between sealed and ported, but I don't tend to hear the sealed = tight vs ported= loose bass consensuses, at least not with the 0300's vs Barefoots vs Twins vs Opals or even my JBL LSR32's. I think speaker designers can account, adjust, compensate (i.e. dynamic brakes), and make use of the advantages of ported designs while minimizing the negatives.