Cocteau Twins/Robin Guthrie guitar sound

[Tubthumper]

Hi all,

I've been revisiting my Cocteau's albums and CDs....phwoar, what a unique and heavenly sound.

I realise that the guitar sound is not entirely original but lordy, it's alluring. I'm talking about the heavily modulated/delayed guitar sound as heard on mid- to late-period Cocteau Twins releases (not their earlier Banshees sound-alike stuff, but the stuff from say Aikea Guinea/Blue Bell Knoll and onwards).... very lush and almost pad-like.

Anyone got any ideas as to how Robin G's guitar was processed?

Thanks people, all the best.

[hurricaneE]

FWIW, Lincoln Fong, long-time Cocteaus engineer, and I are working on setting up a time to chat for TapeOp, so I should have some kind of answer for you, although it may not see publication for many, many months. -E

[Tubthumper]

E,

Thanks for your reply.

Not savvy re: Tape Op. Do you mean that your piece will be in a hard-copy edition of Tape Op??

[hurricaneE]

If all goes to plan, yeah. -E

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

E,

Thanks for your reply.

Not savvy re: Tape Op. Do you mean that your piece will be in a hard-copy edition of Tape Op??

[Tubthumper]

Awesome E, thanks.

Anyone else knowledgeable re: Robin's guit sound??? I'm after specifics if possible.

[pasart]

his setup circa 1990 was:
paul reed smith guitar>
boss exciter>
boss chorus>
yamaha d1500 delay>
harmonizer>
boss phaser>
boss hi-band flanger>
boss flanger>
boss vibrato>
volume pedal>
cry baby wah>
another delay>
pair of rivera combos

quite complicated setup

[Tubthumper]

PaSart,

Well done. Can I ask where you sourced this info?

[Renie]

Robin was I read somewhere a great collector of guitar effects, he had tons of pedals I seem to remember. At the time (I think it was Four Calendar Cafe) he was flirting with the Digitech whammy...

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Guitars are one thing... but how did Liz Fraser sing like that? she is her own human FX box!

Wiggy

PS... showing our age here!

[Renie]

When I met her (bought a TR 909 from them) she was astounded that her 'lyrics' were not always clear. She said the track Plain Tiger was about a visit to London zoo where she called a lion (forgetting it's real name) a plain tiger and Robin found it hilarious.

shame she doesn't do more- she was going to work on another massive attack record but apparently was fretting over timing minutae in her vibrato etc that it eventually got called off.

[thenewyear]

'Heaven or Las Vegas' remains one of my all time favourite albums (although I have listened to it too much ).

The song writing, the (heavenly) singing & the playing are all stellar, unfortunately I think the production has aged poorly.

September Sound is the studio that Simon and Robin set up in London. Apparently it was notable because the listening position was acoustically in completely the wrong place but the band insisted on putting it where it was because the view from the window inspired them. Brilliant! Long live the acoustic design principles of inspiration.

[ohmnoise]

"his setup circa 1990 was:
paul reed smith guitar>
boss exciter>
boss chorus>
yamaha d1500 delay>
harmonizer>
boss phaser>
boss hi-band flanger>
boss flanger>
boss vibrato>
volume pedal>
cry baby wah>
another delay>
pair of rivera combos"

Does this not belong to the topic Low End?

[pasart]

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

PaSart,

Well done. Can I ask where you sourced this info?

guitar player- february 1991

[baikonour]

Robin used many different kind of pedals and racks over the years...lots of roland stuff (dimension d and co.)
Guitar wise: fender jazzmaster, Bass VI, and I remember these weird looking new(?) guitars whick looked like 60's Eko... He's also playing with a gretch lately with line 6 amp.
Amazing guitarist/producer/// my Fav record as to be Victorialand though and treasure and tiny dynamine/echoes in the shallow bay and sunburst snowblind and the moon and the melodies etc etc... Amazingly dense and inventive.
For the Tw** mentioning low-end, pls go back to your $1000000 worth of gear and have a good wank, let us talk about this amazing artist in peace...

[Silver Sonya]

The main thing to note about Cocteau Twins is that guitar amps were rarely involved.

Also, delay was far preferred to reverb.

- c

[ohmnoise]

Originally Posted by baikonour

For the Tw** mentioning low-end, pls go back to your $1000000 worth of gear and have a good wank, let us talk about this amazing artist in peace...

I have nothing to say against this amazing artist, which I loved to listen since it`s "Treasure"-ablum for sure.
But those above equipment are 95 per cent guitar-pedals which should belong to Low-End-Topic I Think. But it`s quit interesting to start this in the High End, and to see he used most cheap pedals.
Anyway if I would wank with an amount of a million dollar, be sure that I would have been bought all those small cheap equipment too.

[Silver Sonya]

The Cocteau Twins remasters are disappointing. There is waaaay too much limiting applied. I believe Robin Guthrie oversaw the mastering himself, so I guess it's "authentic," but sometimes when artists are heavily involved with remastering work, they have a desire to make their old, great-sounding records compete with modern Loudness War records and the result can be a disaster. Cocteau Twins deserve to be remastered, for sure, but I wish Tony Cousins had done it, instead of Guthrie.

- c

[thenewyear]

Does this not belong to the topic Low End?

Interesting point. Here we get to the fundamental dichotomy of the Gear Slut - truly excellent High End art that has been created with equipment that at least one person here deems Low End.

We then must presume that Low End refers solely to the pricetag and not to the output which as we have all heard can be stellar.

[cultureofgreed]

Robin G guitar set up definitely does not belong in Low End.

[Silver Sonya]

I can't say that I spend a lot of time in The Low-End Theory forum (I run a mastering studio, most of what's there wouldn't apply) but I think you guys might have the wrong idea about it. It's kind of a beautiful concept (and it's named affectionately after one of the greatest albums of all time!): the pursuit of greatness within economic restrictions. It's not a shameful notion! Low end doesn't mean low class.

If, in fact, the majestry and innovation of the Cocteau Twins' guitar sounds on, say, "Heaven Or Las Vegas" (one of their many masterpieces) were achieved with inexpensive means, then that really is a testament to what can be achieved with imagination and vision, not expensive gear.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's Low End in the most inspiring way, I say.

--- Chad

[Tubthumper]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

If, in fact, the majestry and innovation of the Cocteau Twins' guitar sounds on, say, "Heaven Or Las Vegas" (one of their many masterpieces) were achieved with inexpensive means, then that really is a testament to what can be achieved with imagination and vision, not expensive gear.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's Low End in the most inspiring way, I say.

--- Chad

Too true Chad.

Without wishing to offend any of our learned colleagues, I often find that a "mine's bigger than yours" -type pomposity rules the Gearslutz airwaves. My own view is that gear is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. Still, to each their own I say.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. I did a search for the Cocteau's before posting, and given the small number of results returned I had assumed that either: 1. The Cocteau's were either obscure and/or considered uninteresting, or 2. I'm much, much older than I thought.

Wiggy: yes, Liz's voice is stunning. I really can't stand the classical/operatic singing style, but I'm guessing that Liz must have been classically trained... perhaps not.

One thing that amazes me about the Cocteau's is that, especially on the mid- to late-period stuff where Liz was not really singing much that was intelligible or interpretable, they were still considered as "one of my favourite bands" by many people. Bang goes the theory that songs sung in the native tongue are the only ones that can connect with people.

[thenewyear]

There's nothing wrong with that. It's Low End in the most inspiring way, I say.

Couldn't, could not agree more with both of the above posts.

While I love Gearslutz & have learned a load from people here I definitely also get tired of threads that read like so;

Q: How can I improve the I/O on my 002R? I have around $500 to spend.

Tiresome stuff that holds a subtle implication that the original poster is some kind of hobbyist (which he very probably is) and that that means that his recording experience is somehow inferior. what has any of it got to do with music? or expression? or art??

sorry, incoherent rant over.

[mmmender]

Hi there, someone on my forum (www.cocteautwinsforums.com) directed me to this link so I thought I'd toss in a few things. Both Robin Guthrie and Simon Raymonde are forum members at the forum so some of you might be interested in joining to get first hand Guthrie details on his sound techniques. For now here are just a few quotes on some of his sound sources.......

"I use an Electrix repeater [for live looping]. It works...it's unstable and the MIDI implementation was written by a sped. I think it's Canadian but that may be a coincidence. I've been through all sorts, the original jam man was great but clicked on the loop if you didn't get it just right, something I am familiar with. As I said in another answer I have an RC50 but haven't fired it up yet. On paper it looks great." -Robin Guthrie, October 14/06

"[With Victorialand] I used an acoustic guitar, which I still have which was made for me by the Kinkade brothers in Bristol, England, where Russell Fong was learning his craft at the time. It's quite simply the most beautiful acoustic guitar I've ever played. True, of course, is the fact that it is processed to shit, using, mostly, a unit I liked at the time called and Eventide SP2016. There is as well Richard Thomas who plays soprano sax, like an angel would, tablas, played by Richard also, some beatbox, a Roland Compurhythm CR8000 and lots of other processing." -Robin Guthrie, February 4/06

"[List of drum machines used per release] garlands : roland tr808, lullabies : linn lm1, peppermint pig : linndrum, head over heels : emu drumulator, sunburst and snowblind : emu drumulator, treasure : : emu drumulator modded with the rock chips set (samples of john bonham), aikea guinea : roland tr707, victorialand : just a roland cr78 on one song, echoes in a shallow bay/tiny dynamine : roland tr707 and tr727, blue bell knoll : emu SP12, Yamaha RX5, heaven or las vegas : Akai MPC 60 MK1 (this is the one designed by roger linn) , Emu SP1200, four calendar cafe : Akai MPC60 MK1, Roland CR1000, milk and kisses : Akai MPC60 MK2....Of course there were usually other sounds triggered, but for the most part these are the machines used. For all of the later records, the machines used were sampling drum machines (ie the Akai's and the emu sp series) therfore the machines didn't actually contain the sounds used. The sounds came from 'a variety of sources'..." -Robin Guthrie, December 1/03

I hope some of you will stop by!

mmmender

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

Hi all,

I've been revisiting my Cocteau's albums and CDs....phwoar, what a unique and heavenly sound.

I realise that the guitar sound is not entirely original but lordy, it's alluring. I'm talking about the heavily modulated/delayed guitar sound as heard on mid- to late-period Cocteau Twins releases (not their earlier Banshees sound-alike stuff, but the stuff from say Aikea Guinea/Blue Bell Knoll and onwards).... very lush and almost pad-like.

Anyone got any ideas as to how Robin G's guitar was processed?

Thanks people, all the best.

try an early 80's roland jazz chorus guitar amp; that should take you pretty much all the way to where you're headed. it was the defining guitar sound of the entire genre!

[westbury]

Here's some info from one song (there are 4 others I believe). This is straight from the horses mouth. Go to www.cocteautwinsforums.com for the actual post.
Quite an amazing sound

A kissed out red floatboat
I think I know why I don't answer you. it's the times font.. but I'll make an exception this once.. a kissed out red floatboat...ok.. no synths, it's all guitars and smoke and mirrors...the sort of synthy percussive sound that runs all the way through and is all on its own in the intro is a bunch of filtered delays triggered from the drums. I used a lexicon PCM70 for this..(same with the 'synth' rhythm thing on blue bell knoll)....the filtery pulsating wah sound which appears from the choruses to the end, well the exact guitar I can't remember but the jist of the sound is a triggered gate, triggering 16th notes from the metronome output of the sequencer, an emu sp1200, then wahed....the four guys in anoraks who always used to stand in front of my pedalboard and take notes and photos during the set (and nudge each other and look smug when I made a ****-up) will know that I replicated this sound live using the same gate (a drawmer ds201) and an akai mpc60. The wah was a roger mayer customised crybaby....the acoustic guitar in all probability is my kinkade as mentioned in another answer, probably treble or quadruple tracked, compressed, delayed....The little riffs at the end of the verses were played on a fender electric 12...the sweep sound which crops up now and again is my broken (and I will never get it fixed) boss bf2 flanger...(broken as it goes into a very destructive oscillation if you wind the feedback up all the way - I have a couple of others which don't)....
okaydoke?

[turtlemoon]

A Kissed Out Red Floatboat
Great song title.
This is my fav Cocteau's song , truly angelic.
Time for a badly needed re-union me thinks...

[Butcha]

For the chorus sound try a Boss DC-3 Digital Dimension Pedal.

[Ethereralgreta]

Of course most major recording artists want to tell people they use low end equipment to prove a point:
It is not the gear you use that makes the music, it is the heart and soul of the songwriter and the innovation using what little you have. Good point, well taken
That being said, we must ask, what recording studios were use to record Cocteau Twins major releases while they were together? I am particularly interested in the insanity of the efffects processing on heaven or las vegas. The female vocals are flat out amazingly overdubbed and richly effected. It states on the album sleeve that record was recorded at September Sound and here is a pick of Guthrie at that studio

I am sure that Guthrie has a point to make concerning the use of low end gear: Shit guitar pedals can sound great when going through 40,000 dollar Neve consoles, so it is my point of contention that his own personal kit is not a reflection of the overall product's end quality if it was mixed through an SSL with a Plate 140 and a gazillion dollars of outboard compressors.
I know for example, his recent releases with harold budd were recorded here locally, at WELCOME TO SAN FRANCISCO SOUNDWORKS, SF SOUNDWORKS, SSL 9000J, TONY ESPINOZA which is now defunkt and out of business. If you look at that studios gear list, you can see that Gutherie and Budd were not running their gear through Boss effects pedals for the albums 'Before the Day Breaks and 'After the Night falls' and you can hear it, in the mix.
SSL consoles and Lexicon.
Now September Sound's kit list at the time the Cocteau stuff was recorded is a mystery to me, so if someone can attest to their outboard, and it was crap, then my argument that in the end, you cann't get an SSL mix out of Peavey mixer, goes out the window. You also have to consider the final mastering process, and where it was done, as well.

[Ethereralgreta]

cocteau twins | media | print | Addicted to Noise - May 1996

[Ethereralgreta]

I've heard here on Gearslutz a million opinions on how reverb should and should not be used. RG has used reverb and effects in ways that most on this forum would scoff at- and it sounds absolutely beautiful.
His 'unconventional and untrained' use of vibrato and tremolo based delays and chorused reverbs was done in a way that most elitists would consider un-'kosher' and a 'no no'. Great. he sounds original, they scoff at his methodolgies and go on trying to sound like everyone else. So kudos to RG for the music he has made over the years, will be remembered.