Recording acoustic singer/songwriter

[frist44]

I'm looking for some good ideas of recording vox and acoustic at the same time. The performance is way better, but I get a fair amount of vox in the guitar mic.

I tried a SM7b on the vox, and that doesn't have a whole lot of guitar, so I'm comfortable with that sound, but the guitar mic is getting a lot of vocals, which tends to produce some phase effects when combined.

what's work for you in this situation?

Thanks,
Brandon

[DarkSky Media]

If you use fig 8 mics on the guitar and position them so that the null axis is directed towards the singer's mount, while the mic is directly pointing at the guitar, you will capture mostly guitar and very little voice. Almost all the voice that is in the guitar mic will be room ambience entering the back of the mic, but that usually is a help rather than a hindrance (depending on the room).

[frist44]

True. I have a royer 121 I could put up on the guitar to see. I guess a few LDC have adjustable patterns that I could do the same with.

[Fieldstone]

Originally Posted by DSM Interactive

If you use fig 8 mics on the guitar and position them so that the null axis is directed towards the singer's mount, while the mic is directly pointing at the guitar, you will capture mostly guitar and very little voice. Almost all the voice that is in the guitar mic will be room ambience entering the back of the mic, but that usually is a help rather than a hindrance (depending on the room).

+1. If you have a larger room with dampened high end you may get the best results.

[jmikeperkins]

I am an acoustic singer songwriter and I have recorded a number of them in my studio in addition to myself. I've spent a lot of time trying different set ups attempting to keep the vocal and the acoustic guitar separated, but I always had to make compromises with mics and placement until I gave up on that and tried to make the bleed work for me. Your milage may vary, but if you have a NICE SOUNDING LIVE ROOM, and you want to try something different, then use a 3 point stereo, 3 mic set up. Use a matched pair of small diaphram condenser mics on the guitar (I use a pair of vintage Neumann KM 74's) and aim one near the bridge of the guitar (avoid the soundhole as its boomy) and then aim the 2nd one at about the 12th fret of the guitar. Pan this pair of mics hard right and hard left. Then positiion whatever large diaphram condenser mic the singer sounds best on (I use a vintage Neumann U77) as you normally would a few inches from the singers mouth and put that dead center.

Sure, everything bleeds into everything else, but you get a VERY NATURAL SOUNDING 3 POINT STEREO IMAGE with the guitar hard right and hard left and the vocal in the center. Listen and move the mics around a bit to minimize phase issues. IF YOU DO THIS RIGHT, AND YOU HAVE A GOOD SOUNDING ROOM, THE RESULTS CAN BE AMAZING.

J. Mike Perkins

[peat]

^^^

sounds great, have to give it a go one day

[vitreouswindows]

I've spent a lot of time with this, and there are many variables (type of voice, type of guitar, playing style, strings/picks, etc.) but a U47 (or Wunder CM7 or Wagoner U47 or Horch RM2J) in the right place in a nice sounding room works great. I've also had good luck with a single Neumann KM84 (or KM54), or a Schoeps CMC6/MK4 (or MK21). One needs to experiment with placement, but that and the room have MUCH to do with the sound - not more than the mic, but not less either.

[jlsgear]

I record myself this way. Mike has it right here.

This is a tough nut to crack. The mic pair on the guitar is the critical part, since its a compromise of placement for best guitar sound vs a reasonable amount of voice leakage (into the guitar mics).

In the end, I agree you are better off just placing the mics for sound. However, try to position the guitar mics such that the voice leakage into both the guitar mics is about the same level. That way, when the guitar mics are hard panned left and right, the vocal still sits in the middle naturally (ie. even if you muted the vocal mic).

jls.

Originally Posted by jmikeperkins

I am an acoustic singer songwriter and I have recorded a number of them in my studio in addition to myself. I've spent a lot of time trying different set ups attempting to keep the vocal and the acoustic guitar separated, but I always had to make compromises with mics and placement until I gave up on that and tried to make the bleed work for me. Your milage may vary, but if you have a NICE SOUNDING LIVE ROOM, and you want to try something different, then use a 3 point stereo, 3 mic set up. Use a matched pair of small diaphram condenser mics on the guitar (I use a pair of vintage Neumann KM 74's) and aim one near the bridge of the guitar (avoid the soundhole as its boomy) and then aim the 2nd one at about the 12th fret of the guitar. Pan this pair of mics hard right and hard left. Then positiion whatever large diaphram condenser mic the singer sounds best on (I use a vintage Neumann U77) as you normally would a few inches from the singers mouth and put that dead center.

Sure, everything bleeds into everything else, but you get a VERY NATURAL SOUNDING 3 POINT STEREO IMAGE with the guitar hard right and hard left and the vocal in the center. Listen and move the mics around a bit to minimize phase issues. IF YOU DO THIS RIGHT, AND YOU HAVE A GOOD SOUNDING ROOM, THE RESULTS CAN BE AMAZING.

J. Mike Perkins

[Jonathan Starr]

I'm doing a singer/songwriter project right now, and working it similar to Mike's suggestion.

Started with a pair of Schoeps Mk21's on the guitar, an older, small parlor Gibson. Wanted a bit more warmth and less twang, so after some trial we swapped the bridge Mk21 for an R84. Vox is a Soundelux e251c, through a padded Pacifica with the gain cranked to add some iron distortion and texture. It's working nicely.

[Looccam]

+1 for this technique.

Of course, all is very dependent on the quality of the fig.8 mic's and and the room itself, but even in my crappy room with a pair of ACM-3 sonic screwdrivers I'm sold on this technique.

FWIW, this was John Whynot's preferred technique with Bruce Cockburn. Now there's a singer/songwriter for ya! Give "The Charity of Night" a listen!

Just to be clear.... Point the null of the vox mic at the guitar, and the null of the guitar mic at the singer's mouth. I set the mic's up as best as I can as a coincident pair which, for me, winds up looking like the 2 mic's pretty much at 90 degrees to each other with the ribbons as close to each other as I can manage. I guess the mic's wind up being about 15" from each source. With the right orientation you can rotate the guitar mic to vary it's focus between the bridge and the neck to find a sweet spot. YMMV.

For me, the big advantage of this technique is the flexibility it provides to allow me to not only balance the vox and guitar, but also to process the two signals differently. Definitely worth trying.

Originally Posted by DSM Interactive

If you use fig 8 mics on the guitar and position them so that the null axis is directed towards the singer's mount, while the mic is directly pointing at the guitar, you will capture mostly guitar and very little voice. Almost all the voice that is in the guitar mic will be room ambience entering the back of the mic, but that usually is a help rather than a hindrance (depending on the room).

[RKrizman]

Here's something that has worked for me. The singer was performing standing up. I had a Lawson 47 pointing up to his mouth, fairly close, and a 184 pointing down to the 12th fret of his guitar, about 6 inches away. I took a music stand and tipped the top part, that holds the music, until it was horizontal instead of vertical. I stuck some foam on both sides of it and slid it between the two mics, so it was functioning as a baffle. It all fit together great, the singer was comfortable with it, and the results totally lacked that phasey quality that is so hard to avoid.

Try it!

-R

[hank alrich]

Another approach is to turn X/Y a coincident cardioid or hypercardioid configuration on its side, one aimed at the voice and the other at the guitar.

You will have bleed, but it won't be phasey.