brick wall limiter for mastering action music

[Foot In Mouth]

What do you guys recommend to do what Waves L2 does digitally in the analogue domain?? I have 2 great compressors, but I need something to insert after the compressor that will do brick wall limiting that does not reduce high end. I already have a Tubetech and a Xener, so the brick wall limiter should be clean and colorless and very hi-fi.

[Waltz Mastering]

Also checkout the Maselec MPL - 2, Aphex Dominator II, and Hardware L2.

[11miles]

TC Electronic's 6000 mastering .
It has some very sweet limiters.

Not analouge though.

[Jim Williams]

If you use a brick wall limiter your music won't have any action left.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by ncskolrud

sounds like a job for the pendulum peak limiter......

The Pendulum is one of the cleanest, and musical Peak Limiter's in existence-IMO. It does not muck and jumble the tone of your HF stuff, nor ADD ANY WEIGHT to the MID, as that is EXACTLY what the L2 DOES-IME, so if you DO NOT want to ADD ANY WEIGHT, but make things louder and more forward, the PL2 SMOKES the L2, with whatever style of music you are working on. I find its "action" hardly noticeable in a large dense mix, and I think its a steroid circuit that is far more simple, and far more effective than any Plug and/or processor I've used to limit [NOT COMPRESS] my mix. For me, the reason why the L2 sucks, is that there is more going on inside the circuit, thus there is more control change than I NEED for Peak Limiting a master.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If you use a brick wall limiter your music won't have any action left.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

If by "action music" you mean music for a film/tv/trailer action sequence, please don't heavily limit. It might sound great by itself, but when you add sfx & dialog it'll just turn to mush.

Most of the big music libraries have started doing loudness-war mastering on their new releases. I think it's a terrible trend.

[T. Gundersen]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

If by "action music" you mean music for a film/tv/trailer action sequence, please don't heavily limit. It might sound great by itself, but when you add sfx & dialog it'll just turn to mush.

Most of the big music libraries have started doing loudness-war mastering on their new releases. I think it's a terrible trend.

Maybe you guys should keep discussion on different styles and ethics of work to threads that are actually about those topics.. Not saying your points aren't valid, but it just isn't really what OP is asking.

[Foot In Mouth]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If you use a brick wall limiter your music won't have any action left.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Jim, I have the greatest respect for what you do, but the sad reality is I have to deliver loud, wall of sound, tracks at times. I hate over-compression, but the music fights for room amongst dialogue and sfx. I'm trying to get slamming sound that retains as much depth and clarity as possible. with the least distortion. I already get subtle distortion from my Xener limiter, so the Pendulum looks good. Masalec also.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Foot In Mouth

I hate over-compression, but the music fights for room amongst dialogue and sfx.

What Jim and I have been trying to explain is that, contrary to your assumption, heavy bus limiting will most likely hurt your cause, not help it.

You might want to want to post your original question in the Post Production forum as well, and see what those folks think. (It's theoretically against GS rules, but an exception here seems appropriate.) You might even ask this question instead (or as well): "Hey action-film mixers -- if I were to deliver two sets of stems, one heavily limited and one not, which set would you use?"

[Foot In Mouth]

I've scored hundreds of trailers and I know I need a limiter. Right now I get the sound I need by using a little L2 plug-in after my Chandler Mini Mixer, Xener, Massive Passive chain, but I want to do everything in the analogue domain. A good example is the 2012 trailer I did recently. It needed a slamming rock orchestra choir sound and I got there, but I want to do it better and easier.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Foot In Mouth

Jim, I have the greatest respect for what you do, but the sad reality is I have to deliver loud, wall of sound, tracks at times. I hate over-compression, but the music fights for room amongst dialogue and sfx. I'm trying to get slamming sound that retains as much depth and clarity as possible. with the least distortion. I already get subtle distortion from my Xener limiter, so the Pendulum looks good. Masalec also.

I mix score and FX all the time. Automate to get the big sound..... works far better. I don't use limiters on a mix apart from a safety tickle..... Automate !!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Foot In Mouth

I've scored hundreds of trailers and I know I need a limiter. Right now I get the sound I need by using a little L2 plug-in after my Chandler Mini Mixer, Xener, Massive Passive chain, but I want to do everything in the analogue domain. A good example is the 2012 trailer I did recently. It needed a slamming rock orchestra choir sound and I got there, but I want to do it better and easier.

There is nothing in the "analog" domain that does the same thing.

You could get the outboard hardware version of L2, but that will still be a digital process.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by Foot In Mouth

I've scored hundreds of trailers and I know I need a limiter. Right now I get the sound I need by using a little L2 plug-in after my Chandler Mini Mixer, Xener, Massive Passive chain, but I want to do everything in the analogue domain. A good example is the 2012 trailer I did recently. It needed a slamming rock orchestra choir sound and I got there, but I want to do it better and easier.

Honestly, I agree with Tony - I don't think you want an analog limiter for what you're describing. Brickwalling at the end of the chain is one of those few things digital often truly can do far better than analog. That said, I also hate the middiness of the L2 like Roc was describing.

Before you invest in something else, give the Sony Oxford (Sonnox) limiter a try. It's far superior to the L2 imo. Much more Hi-Fi and action sounding. Flux is another good option.

You can demo both free:
Sonnox Oxford Plugins
Flux:: sound and picture development

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Foot In Mouth

I've scored hundreds of trailers and I know I need a limiter. Right now I get the sound I need by using a little L2 plug-in after my Chandler Mini Mixer, Xener, Massive Passive chain, but I want to do everything in the analogue domain. A good example is the 2012 trailer I did recently. It needed a slamming rock orchestra choir sound and I got there, but I want to do it better and easier.

With that list of equipment, I think demoing the Pendulum PL2, would be a good call. You might not send it back. I can tell from your words that you need a box that will strangle hold the output of your master buss [without the buss knowing it] which will make your life much easier, and it should be without ANY loss of tonal fidelity or depth. You can easily make things louder, and more forward and dense with your equipment and the PL2, but again, it does not add anything to the party other than radically transparent "stoppage" of your peaks. You can set it up so that it JUST catches troublesome material, or so that you're mix is made to be a thousand miles an hour, with a breaking system made of kryptonite with Superman himself holding his foot over the pedal constantly. Its does both, extreme stoppage for your buss, and extremely transparent audio at normal, human, work specific settings. Its hard to describe, until you hear it for yourself.

[E-Murder]

I have a love/hate relationship with my hardware L2. I love the fact that I can use other pieces of equipment for compression and limiting in the analog domain and then hit the L2 last so that I can be assured that I never digitally distort (I mix audio for film also).

Depending on the audio material, I tend to dislike the color it adds when hit harder with limiting. So I have found it useful as the last piece of gear before passing audio into the digital domain and hitting it lightly just to grab some overs.

Someone mentioned automation earlier and I agree completely with that and usually I start with automation, almost everything is automated and that is a great first step, or for me an essential first step with dialog. If you choose to use plugins and/or outboard gear for bussing audio stems after getting the automation in order, you can avoid over-compression and over-limiting, if that is what you are looking to achieve with audio post production.

[matskull]

What would be a good limiter for the 2 bus for rock n roll music?
Something that can do the brick wall thing a with a little bit of a nice color to it?

I'm thinking about renting a limiter on the next project I'll do to give my mix the right level before I print it instead of doing it itb later on.