Api 1608: the only console in the world that don't work with Tonelux Shadow Mix

[strauss]

Originally Posted by scott petito

track on the api get a d command to mix.... sum on the api....

done and total recall to boot

SP

Like this?

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Legacy Audio

I've yet to see any console, at any price, fit like a glove to everyone's needs and desires, but I do think that API have delivered an astounding console at a very reasonable price. And while automation and recall would no doubt be nice, thankfully it's the sound of an API console that has always been its strong point.

I agree here. I would probably just insert outboard stuff pre-fader in PT if need be, and then proceed to "mix using my a##" with an API 1608. Me, personally, I find that I really only need pre-fader insert for vocals but it can stem to simply making sure any volume automation does not trigger my post fader outboard patch, obviously. Its not really a deal breaker to me, when using a console with a DAW. In my world, getting the source right in the first place is the procedure, [I realize you don't always cut tracks, and you sometimes receive them already tracked, functioning as a mix room] but there are more ways to skin this cat, I suggest. I like to track stuff so it sits in the mix without things moving, and without me moving them, but that's just me working on projects from start to finish. Of course it all depends on the capacity of the room, and the work that you do. Without hurting the OP's feelings, I really don't think that I would need dancing faders on this console. I would be to busy tracking/mixing bands with 16 microphones to worry about volume automation by mix down. I can do volume automation with a mouse for free, and spend the many hundreds of thousands on Microphones that make you soil your underwear. I wonder how they did stuff without automation back in the day? That stuff seemed to work out. Old School, with fingers on the knobs. Less Automation Systems out there, means more room for interns in the studio, hitting cues. Save the Interns!

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

I agree here. I would probably just insert outboard stuff pre-fader in PT if need be, and then proceed to "mix using my a##" with an API 1608. Me, personally, I find that I really only need pre-fader insert for vocals but it can stem to simply making sure any volume automation does not trigger my post fader outboard patch, obviously. Its not really a deal breaker to me, when using a console with a DAW. In my world, getting the source right in the first place is the procedure, [I relieve you don't always cut tracks, and you sometimes receive them already tracked, functioning as a mix room] but there are more ways to skin this cat, I suggest. I like to track stuff so it sits in the mix without things moving, and without me moving them, but that's just me working on projects from start to finish. Of course it all depends on the capacity of the room, and the work that you do. Without hurting the OP's feelings, I really don't think that I would need dancing faders on this console. I would be to busy tracking/mixing bands with 16 microphones to worry about volume automation by mix down. I can do volume automation with a mouse for free, and spend the many hundreds of thousands on Microphones that make you soil your underwear. I wonder how they did stuff without automation back in the day? That stuff seemed to work out. Old School, with fingers on the knobs. Less Automation Systems out there, means more room for interns in the studio, hitting cues. Save the Interns!

Thank you. Also with 16 track (or less) you would bounce and submix groups. So your changes and balance would be committed to tape. Yes, really old school.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by api1608

When i bought 1608 i didn't delve automation question.
But i hope seriously that api could have make automation.
In fact Vintage king has In the page of 1608 Shadow mix automation in the option recommended, and Proaudioeurope straight has api automation in the list!! " call for price"!!

If that's the case then I think you have a good case for getting ALL of your money back and buying a different console. If you bought it from Vintage King and they advertised that they CAN get the automation for the 1608... and they can't deliver, then tell them you want an AWS900 and the balance of your money.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by strauss

Like this?

Yeah but that guy has SM faders on the T-lux rig too.
pretty decadent!

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

I agree here. I would probably just insert outboard stuff pre-fader in PT if need be, and then proceed to "mix using my a##" with an API 1608. Me, personally, I find that I really only need pre-fader insert for vocals but it can stem to simply making sure any volume automation does not trigger my post fader outboard patch, obviously. Its not really a deal breaker to me, when using a console with a DAW. In my world, getting the source right in the first place is the procedure, [I relieve you don't always cut tracks, and you sometimes receive them already tracked, functioning as a mix room] but there are more ways to skin this cat, I suggest. I like to track stuff so it sits in the mix without things moving, and without me moving them, but that's just me working on projects from start to finish. Of course it all depends on the capacity of the room, and the work that you do. Without hurting the OP's feelings, I really don't think that I would need dancing faders on this console. I would be to busy tracking/mixing bands with 16 microphones to worry about volume automation by mix down. I can do volume automation with a mouse for free, and spend the many hundreds of thousands on Microphones that make you soil your underwear. I wonder how they did stuff without automation back in the day? That stuff seemed to work out. Old School, with fingers on the knobs. Less Automation Systems out there, means more room for interns in the studio, hitting cues. Save the Interns!

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Thank you. Also with 16 track (or less) you would bounce and submix groups. So your changes and balance would be committed to tape. Yes, really old school.

I guess that's great if your running an "old school" rig and mixing all your own stuff.
can't say i'd be a big fan of spending and another 9 grand on extra unnecessary conversion

In the not so distant future,I'm planning on expanding to a bigger space and having a second mix room [ would also involve me buying the 40k 1608 expander..$$$]
I've got mixing buddies here in town ready to rent the room.. auto is a big deal for them.

I do think its pretty lame that API initially talked big about auto for the thing and is now completely flaking out

The fact that Shadow Mix doesn't work with it certainly doesn't help the situation

Whatever..i'm seriously looking at the RNC 5088 this week anyways

[raal]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Whatever..i'm seriously looking at the RNC 5088 this week anyways

soon's i get a chance i plan to go hear one for myself... please let us know your impressions Badge.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by raal

soon's i get a chance i plan to go hear one for myself... please let us know your impressions Badge.

You got it brother!

[imacgreg]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Yeah but that guy has SM faders on the T-lux rig too.
pretty decadent!

Not trying to be a stickler, but I think he's got flying faders on the tonelux rig. That room is pretty freaking sweet...

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

You got it brother!

Yeah, very interested. Particularly from someone that's used to the API sound.
Be sure to start a thread!

[seriousfun]

Originally Posted by api1608

Hello,
One year ago i bought a 32 Channel Api 1608.
This is an awesome console with a fantastic sound.
I have carefully tested all desks in 100k budget and 1608 is the only, with neve 5088, wunderbar and daking 1112 that absolutely match, about sound, the large consoles.
But when i bought 1608 i gave credit to a "specification" that again is on the api site: " Future Vision Automation"
That said, yesterday i emailed to Larry Droppa to ask about introduction of this automation, and he answered this:
"there are no plans to provide automation for the 1608. ...

I don't have a good answer why Tonelux won't work in an API.

Flying Faders will work. Flying Faders does cost a little over $1,000 per-channel for a 32-channel system, as opposed to Toneluxe at about $650/channel.

With Flying Faders you get a robust, time-tested standalone automation system that plays perfectly with DAWs using SMPTE time code. FF has switches on each fader, making the automation fast and intuitive. Flying Faders can automate up to 256 channels, Tonelux is limited by the HUI protocol.

We will soon incorporate DAW control via the HUI protocol, like Tonelux, Neve, SSL, etc.

Originally Posted by strauss

Like this?

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Yeah but that guy has SM faders on the T-lux rig too.
pretty decadent!

Yes, that is Flying Faders on Jeff O'Rourke's Tonelux console. He couldn't use Shadowmix because Pro Tools will only allow for one control surface to work at one time, and he wanted to incorporate his existing control surface into the console with the automated analog faders.

[Trev@Circle]

Originally Posted by rimskidog

Give me a call if you are serious about selling.

I guess he wasn't...

[api1608]

I decided to continue 1608.
Even i add some 500 series eq e comp.
Bac500 certain, i think to add 8 on 1608.
What do you think?

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by api1608

I decided to continue 1608.
Even i add some 500 series eq e comp.
Bac500 certain, i think to add 8 on 1608.
What do you think?

The BAC's are great
also check out the new Electrodyne eq's

[u b k]

Hmmm... Paul Wolff... API... Tonelux... product incompatibility...

I can't imagine why this would be.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by u b k

Hmmm... Paul Wolff... API... Tonelux... product incompatibility...

I can't imagine why this would be.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by u b k

Hmmm... Paul Wolff... API... Tonelux... product incompatibility...

I can't imagine why this would be.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

Its possible API made him sign an agreement stating he wouldn't design any products that are either similar, using the same designs or to be used in conjunction with API products.

Hey it happened to both RNeve and Dave Hill. In fact people around here know Dave Hill more for the Cranesong solid state stuff, when in fact its his tube designs that are his best sounding stuff. He just can't do any tube stuff because of the agreement with Summit Audio.

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Its possible API made him sign an agreement stating he wouldn't design any products that are either similar, using the same designs or to be used in conjunction with API products.

Hey it happened to both RNeve and Dave Hill. In fact people around here know Dave Hill more for the Cranesong solid state stuff, when in fact its his tube designs that are his best sounding stuff. He just can't do any tube stuff because of the agreement with Summit Audio.

Is that agreement a time limited one? Surely it's not a case of 'forever'?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by dbjp

Is that agreement a time limited one? Surely it's not a case of 'forever'?

I have no idea.

In some cases i've heard 20 years. In others its been different.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Its possible API made him sign an agreement stating he wouldn't design any products that are either similar, using the same designs or to be used in conjunction with API products.

That would be a bummer
Hey it doesn't really surprise me that API completely dropped the ball,they aren't exactly know for their follow through on automation productsdfegad

[DRC]

Originally Posted by strauss

Like this?

Strauss, where did you get the transport for your keyboard and monitor? I have been looking for something mobile like that. I'm guessing that's your rig?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

That would be a bummer
Hey it doesn't really surprise me that API completely dropped the ball,they aren't exactly know for their follow through on automation productsdfegad

I think you have to understand where API is coming from. The initial idea for the API 1608 was as a tracking side car or as an entry level mixer for project studios, not something to be used as the center piece for the studio. That's what the Legacy is for and that is API bread & butter. They were actually skeptical and surprised that the new demand for mixers by project studios was real, or more likely just a blip or a fad since the console business is pretty much dead as we know it. To put the R&D and effort into developing an automation system for something that may not last is to them a waste a money. API has a name and a legacy to hold up. They build high end consoles and professional products. The 1608 is more of a step back or sideways. By the way API is not the only company that has felt this way. When i checked out the Genesys i got the same impression from Neve. You have to understand these companies have a lot of pride and history attached to them. To wake up one day and realize that their flagships to be are these cut down mixers, stripped down and crammed with as much features as they can get away just to meet a price point, only to have potential customers complain that things are lacking but they don't what to pay what it takes to really step up, is like a slap in the face.

It makes you give SSL their props in these times. Everytime i use an SSL console i am amazed at the thought and planning that went into figuring out what engineers would really need in the working world, but to implement it elegantly at any price point is kudos to them. Even now when people come on here and rip apart their new products, when years ago there flagship products were commanding half million to a million dollars each shows why they've been able to survive and continue to attract new clients.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I think you have to understand where API is coming from. The initial idea for the API 1608 was as a tracking side car or as an entry level mixer for project studios, not something to be used as the center piece for the studio. That's what the Legacy is for and that is API bread & butter. They were actually skeptical and surprised that the new demand for mixers by project studios was real, or more likely just a blip or a fad since the console business is pretty much dead as we know it. To put the R&D and effort into developing an automation system for something that may not last is to them a waste a money. API has a name and a legacy to hold up. They build high end consoles and professional products. The 1608 is more of a step back or sideways. By the way API is not the only company that has felt this way. When i checked out the Genesys i got the same impression from Neve. You have to understand these companies have a lot of pride and history attached to them. To wake up one day and realize that their flagships to be are these cut down mixers, stripped down and crammed with as much features as they can get away just to meet a price point, only to have potential customers complain that things are lacking but they don't what to pay what it takes to really step up, is like a slap in the face.

It makes you give SSL their props in these times. Everytime i use an SSL console i am amazed at the thought and planning that went into figuring out what engineers would really need in the working world, but to implement it elegantly at any price point is kudos to them. Even now when people come on here and rip apart their new products, when years ago there flagship products were commanding half million to a million dollars each shows why they've been able to survive and continue to attract new clients.

I rip SSL all the time...that,s a really good point though....they are made to worl in the real world.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I think you have to understand where API is coming from. The initial idea for the API 1608 was as a tracking side car or as an entry level mixer for project studios, not something to be used as the center piece for the studio. That's what the Legacy is for and that is API bread & butter. They were actually skeptical and surprised that the new demand for mixers by project studios was real, or more likely just a blip or a fad since the console business is pretty much dead as we know it. To put the R&D and effort into developing an automation system for something that may not last is to them a waste a money. API has a name and a legacy to hold up. They build high end consoles and professional products. The 1608 is more of a step back or sideways. By the way API is not the only company that has felt this way. When i checked out the Genesys i got the same impression from Neve. You have to understand these companies have a lot of pride and history attached to them. To wake up one day and realize that their flagships to be are these cut down mixers, stripped down and crammed with as much features as they can get away just to meet a price point, only to have potential customers complain that things are lacking but they don't what to pay what it takes to really step up, is like a slap in the face.

It makes you give SSL their props in these times. Everytime i use an SSL console i am amazed at the thought and planning that went into figuring out what engineers would really need in the working world, but to implement it elegantly at any price point is kudos to them. Even now when people come on here and rip apart their new products, when years ago there flagship products were commanding half million to a million dollars each shows why they've been able to survive and continue to attract new clients.

Yes true .(sorry iPhone typing)
However this a new age of recording
loads of hi end guys I know are buying the smaller mixers and working at home or smaller space
loads of 1608's sold.tons of rack stuff(thanks to GS)
way more than legacys
API wants to stick to the dinosuar biz model?
Well god bless em..but I sure as he'll more than understand why Paul bailed
re the Neve Gen: used one the other day.sounded decent but man felt really cheap
..the faders were a joke

[herecomesyourman]

Originally Posted by glissando

This is a small console with a very big sound...You can't get everything you want...if you want large format with automation, buy a legacy....the 1608 is what it is....and it is a great "little" console...also using the automation in your DAW with a few human moves should be just fine don't you think?

I concur. If it's the sound you want...don't be a purist...just use DAW automation and track / stem mix / sum with your board.

I mean, human beings made the best recordings last I checked...hell if you've got the cash to go for automation maybe put that stuff into a 401K account instead so you're better prepared for the failing world economy.

[strauss]

Originally Posted by DRC

Strauss, where did you get the transport for your keyboard and monitor? I have been looking for something mobile like that. I'm guessing that's your rig?

Got it from the tonelux website.
That's not my rig, though it would be nice have
Only thing is that I would probably need something with easier recallability...

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

I concur. If it's the sound you want...don't be a purist...just use DAW automation and track / stem mix / sum with your board.

I mean, human beings made the best recordings last I checked...hell if you've got the cash to go for automation maybe put that stuff into a 401K account instead so you're better prepared for the failing world economy.

Thats cool For the home guys
but outside clients want the bells and whistles(of course on the cheap)

[api1608]

I admit, i never thought to sell 1608.
I only excited discussion to know your think.
Really 1608 matchs in sound and in engineering top api console.
This is what all clients came in my studio said, and this is what anyone who tested 1608 absolutely ascertained.
Now i add a central Api blank frame where i put keyboard, euphonix mc control+mix and 24" lcd,then i add 8 Bac500 and 4 Avedis e27, with default 12 550A and 4 560 so i have a stellar center piece in my studio.
Right?

[herecomesyourman]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Thats cool For the home guys
but outside clients want the bells and whistles(of course on the cheap)

Well...maybe, but I'm just saying even the cheapest daws have integrated automation, hell...before automation was invented people rode faders manually.

(IMO those records sound the best)

It's just not something I'd list as a PARAMOUNT expense in any studio given the state of the industry currently. But then again I'm always trying to get the best bang for my bucks just like my clients.

(And I'm only a half-home guy, I record in other studios / have owned a few smaller studios in comercial spaces in the past that have done well on smaller budgets)

How many people in this market care about anything more than the end result anyway?

By the by I'm not trying to pick a fight, I've just been pondering all this stuff we spend so much money on...my current setup is streamlined...essentially an 8 track vintage neve desk in a rack with some comps and EQ's...I'm not even really missing having a board lately. But that's just me.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

How many people in this market care about anything more than the end result anyway?

But they may not see that the same way you do.

They care about being able to record 100 tracks, and automating, autotuning and dissecting them to death, because they THINK that will get them the best result. So many of them will go elsewhere if you can't do that.

Originally Posted by api1608

Now i add a central Api blank frame where i put keyboard, euphonix mc control+mix and 24" lcd,then i add 8 Bac500 and 4 Avedis e27, with default 12 550A and 4 560 so i have a stellar center piece in my studio.
Right?

No question! thumbsup