Drums Overhead Mixing Help

[LaurentB]

Hi All,

My name is laurent and I have to mix an album for a friend of mine. Acoustic blues/country. Minimalist. I received the separate tracks (Kick, Snare, OH) and for the first time I have to deal with acoustic drums (I am used to samples) so I have a few questions about mixing Overheads. I keep on experimenting but if you can point me to a direction. It will help. This is my first serious post. Be gentle.
1. Do you EQ/Compr the Overheads (the track I received sounds like closed miked OH, recorded in a very bad little room if I compare to Toontrack EZ Drums OH)
2. There is a few ms delay between the Kick/Snare Track and the OH Track, do you align it or keep it delayed?
3. Do you automate the OH if the sound is OK but Cymbals too loud?
4. If you add reverb to the OH, do you prefer Plate, Room, Hall?
5. Do you prefer compressing each track separatly or make a drum buss to compress it once.
6. Do you make the OH sounds in itself and add the kick and snare after, or begin with Kick/Snare and then add the OH.
7. What is for you most important element (timbre speaking), separate drums or Overheads?

Sorry for those basic questions, I am sure you can help, I did a search on the forum and only found about mic techniques. There's no way to re-record it. And, I drum-replaced the separate tracks (massey drum replacer works very easy) but I am still not satisfied.

Thank to All.
Laurent


The gear I use: PT HD2, Pcm96, Bricasti, Orville, Api 2500, APi 5500, SSL X-Racks (EQ, Comp, Buss comp), Massivo+VariMu and plugs. I have a well treated room.

[la grange]

Hi Laurent,
welcome to the real world.
My advice to you.
First check for phase and allign on what will surely end up being the snare as a common ground. If the recording engineer did is job right, Both Oh should be lined up so it's a mater and placing them both on the snare track time.
You mentioned the room being so so. I would definetely do that and then create an artificial space using the reverb that you think suits the pieces best.
Automation volume will surely be requeired to tame the crashes.
I think that with kind of recording you have to use the OH as the overall drum sound. Leave the snare and Kick track for later. Work on those 2 tracks alone until you have a good sound, the snare and toms will be your guide line. Compression for sure and EQ to fit.
I would start with the 5500, then your 2500 and final touch ups with SSL Eq in that particular order but this is not the only way. Do experiment, you might find something else that works best.
Your Briscati should really be a weapon of choice
Then, fetch the snare and the kick and add them to your OH.
If you do replace the snare sound, be sure to choose a sample that goes along with the snare sound you get from your OH.
Hopes this help.
Have fun, you ll be enjoyig the dynamic of a good drum track far more than samples...

Oli

[LaurentB]

Hi Oli

Thank you very much for your answer. It really helps. And sure it is fun to finally work with real drums. I keep on the expirements.
I didn't realised how it is important for drum replacement to find drums sounds to match the OH.

Have a nice day

laurent

[banevt]

I don't know what the OH's sound like but I usually like to listen to the OH and try to get a good balance between all the drums there. In most cases that means using EQ then after everything is balanced I use more EQ so that the cymbals are the feature of the OH's. Sometimes that means the cymbals are popping out a little more than you might like but that's ok cause you have Kick and Snare tracks to fit into the OH's to balance out the sound and we will be compressing after the eq. After the EQ I usually put on some sort of multiband compression or if you don't have a multiband compressor try a compressor with a sidechain eq or even a de-esser. What you want to do is keep the high end of the cymbals from getting too harsh and in your face. I usually use a multiband to compress the high end pretty good but not completely crushed and then use the make up gain to balance it with the other compressed frequency bands to taste. You could probably accomplish the same thing with a de-esser but you will have less control. What I am aiming for with this is a cymbal sound that is full, and present while not having to be too loud and harsh all the while still sounding "natural". Most times there are multiple mics on the kick and snare and I will check the phase between any multi mic'ed kicks and snares. The first thing I do is look at the waveform and make sure there isn't anything 180 degree's out of phase. That means that the peaks of one track aren't happening during the dips of the other tracks on the same source. Sometimes they are just a little off and depending on how far off they are I may or may not move them, I usually first try to listen while I flip the phase on one mic against another until I find a phase relationship I like. If I'm not liking any combination of flipping the phase I will move the tracks. I actually usually start with my kick and eq that then I'll eq the snare and then balance the two, but you can start with the OH's and then move on to kick and snare as well it doesn't really matter. Once you have these three elements good on their own I will solo the OH's and Kick and flip the phase on the OH's to see if that sounds better or worse and do the same with the snare. I don't usually like to move drum tracks around if I don't have to cause there are phase relationships going on that could get kinda smeared and funny if you just align all the drum tracks by their waveform depending on which way you move which track. I tend to only move room tracks or anything that has serious issues. Anyway if you like the sound of the kick or snare with the OH's phase flipped then you will have to flip the one you like out of phase (i.e. you like the kick with the OH's phase flipped but not the snare so you will have to flip the phase of the kick and leave the OH's the way they were so they sound good with the snare). If you like the sound of both kick and snare with the OH's flipped then you can either flip the phase on the kick and snare or just leave the OH's flipped. Basically you just want to use the fewest number of phase flips to get the phase relationship that sounds best. This can be a little tricky sometimes but you'll get the hang of it plus it's a lot easier if there are no multi mic'ed sources and there are only kick, snare, and OH's. If the engineer who recorded it is really good he or she will have already done a phase check of the drums and you will probably find that you don't have to change anything. I will only touch lightly on the phase relationships being best fixed with mic placement because you're mixing and have no control over that by now. Sorry to get off track, basically now you have your OH's, kick and snare figured out and sounding good then you blend them together and listen to them together at first and make any adjustments you feel necessary. Mainly I try to keep it all balancing levels at this point but sometimes you have to get in there and tweak eq when listening to things together. Once the drums are good on their own you will listen to them with everything and will probably need to make more tweaks to levels/eq to get things fitting together nicely. I guess I've probably made it sound more complicated and time consuming than it really is once you get going you'll see how quickly you can get a blend up. So this is just the way I usually approach the OH's/drum mixing but there are many ways to go about it it's all about finding the one that works for you. Have fun mixing and good luck.

[LaurentB]

Thank you Banevt for your post.
Yes, it seems longer to explain than to operate those flip phase checks.
I have to deal a little more on the OH because there's no separate hi-hat track and the hi hat appears full left! Is it common to narrow OH (Waves S1 far example?)
I keep on learning and this is fun

laurent

[bass man]

Hi
I do mostly acoustic jazz and this is how i deal with the drums .

-First check the phase between the tracks ( also in mono ) to be sure everything is OK
After i get the picture i am only moving my pan and volume faders till i get the drums as tight as possible , no comps no eq for now .
About the panning :
Starting point is wide left and right OH tracks and center position for the BD and Snare . If the toms and the hi hat are close miced then ill just try to find where are they coming from my OH's and place them in the same place .
Remember this is only strating point or/and suggestion .I may redo it later with other instruments .

Once i am happy with the sound ( no plugins or hardware is on ) i send the drums track to one stereo group . From there i listen if anything needs to be high passed ( to filter out low freq. acoumulated by proximity eff. of the near micing ) I usually filter out some of the low freq. of the bass drum ( but not in solo mode , always with the whole set and bass guitar / upright track playing together) . When i am done and the Bd and bass are one person i proceed with checking out the snare track. Usually there are some freq that needs to be filtered around 200 hz , but again , this is only a suggestion .
If the tracks are good recorded ,thats about all of the processing i do to the tracks . then i usually apply a faster comp to the drums group with no more then 1- 3 db of gain reduction ( if any at all ) fast attact and not so fast realease .
It should kick ass by now check with other instruments/tracks and make adjustments if you need to .
Reverb/hall/delay or whatever comes ( for me ) at the very end when the mix is as done as possible . This is the most creative part of mixing the song and creating music and it is pretty individual metter of taste and skills so i cant comment on that exept; try things out , sometimes its a plate on the whole set or just some fast hall on your snare that work , or nothing at all or mybe little reverb on the drums bleed in from the sax mic ... you name it .
Hope this helps