Summing improvement

[Blues10]

Hi everyone,

I try to improve my set up little by little.
Tracking gear is almost Ok now, but I still mix ITB. I would like to improve this part of the chain ...
My set up :

Outboard:

API 3124+ Universal audio 2-610 Manley/Langevin DVC
Focusrite Octopre Mindprint channel strip

Conversion SSL Alpha link AX + RME HDSP 2452 + UAD2 and UAD1
TASCAM US2400

Monitoring ADAM P33A.

I would like to keep the automation ITB
What do you think is the best ? Add a summing box ? or just a stereo comp (+ EQ) ?
Does the SSL AX is good enough to convert the master back to the DAW or do I have to get a stereo converter ?

Thanks

[TrueZebra]

rethink your workflow
that was the main factor in improving my ITB mixes alot

I avoid 24bit overclipping

my channels never ever go into red and my plugins never ever get input in red

i actually start with audiotracks not reaching -18dbFS
this gives me 18 db headroom for summing

you can use -12 also but i use -18 because liquid mix shows aliasing for some reason when input is louder than -18
but also it gives me alot of room without looking at meters and it sounds soooo much better !

avoid internal clipping (even the clipping not seen by DAW metering)

[studiophile]

Originally Posted by Blues10

Does the SSL Alpha link AX is good enough to convert the master back to the DAW or do I have to get a stereo converter ?

I'm also interested in the answer to this. Anyone got some thoughts???

[Fletcher]

I'd recommend getting a better converter... like a Crane Song LTD. "HEDD-192" or a Burl "B-2" if you can afford it.

FWIW I've found that for "hybrid" mixes [some stuff analog, automation in the box] that the SSL "Matrix" is a pretty damn handy tool.

As always... YMMV.

Peace.

[warhead]

The SSL converter, considering how many you get at that price, is an astounding deal. I think they sound excellent, very natural, very detailed. However, spending as much (or more) on a 2 channel converter as you did on your 24 channel AX...certainly will net you more converter.

At the end of a project though, what do you find is lacking? Is it difficult to mix in your room? Is your tracking room too dead, live, bright or dark? Do you run out of channels when tracking drums and other sources?

I think it's a very general sort of question to ask without thinking about what you can't do or can't do well, according to your output and workflow.

War

[Jim Williams]

Got $149?

PCM4222EVM

Analog Technologies, Semiconductors, Digital Signal Processing - Texas Instruments

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Big_Bang]

Sorry, I don't quite grasp this last post...

I know its a converter from a quick search, but can't find relevant info. From what I gathered from a quick check on google... this is just the chip, right? These things are not like CPU's you can just pop-out and swap... or are they ?

[Jim Williams]

It is a complete A/D 2 channel converter sans power supply. A $60 Power One supply will work great. It's a top-o-line A/D, better than many high end units.

It's not a sexy box, but it sounds wonderful. Search the subject for more info...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Big_Bang]

Wow, thanks for that one!

Dont give a $%&! about good looks, but it would sure be nice to see one to be reassured when buying/recieving. Anyone can provide a link?

[Blues10]

I'm happy with my room. It's pretty large and I don't have any problems with eqs and reverbs.
I'm satisfied with m SSL converter at tracking, may be it will be OK to get out of the box, but to get the stereo back ...?

By the way, I work mainly on pop / rock and acoustic material ....

My mixes sound good to me until I have to reduce it to stereo ...
I've tried a SPL mixdream XP + UA 2192 converter from a friend of mine, but it did not improve the final result that much.

My intuition is that instead of put a plugin comp on my mix buss (usually UAD Fairchild for color + UAD multiband comp), I'd better go to a hardware comp.
I would like more details and more glue at the same time, if you know what I mean ...

I gonna check out the PCM4222EVM ...

[mistaD]

i've followed a ton of stuff you've writeen on hear and know you've listened to quite a few converters..... Which converter would you put this converter on par with?

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Got $149?

PCM4222EVM

Analog Technologies, Semiconductors, Digital Signal Processing - Texas Instruments

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Blenn]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

It is a complete A/D 2 channel converter sans power supply. A $60 Power One supply will work great. It's a top-o-line A/D, better than many high end units.

It's not a sexy box, but it sounds wonderful. Search the subject for more info...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

John,

Sorry to be stupid. This sounds exciting, if you're saying what I think you're saying.

Which is this: Is this a sub $100 AD converter?

If so how is it powered? Connections? Is there a DA version also.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul

[NathanEldred]

I think for guys that are all ITB, before they get a summing box, they should have at least 1 really excellent stereo compressor, EQ, and 'warmth'/tape box i.e. Fatso, Rupert Neve 5042, etc. The Fatso is a good choice because it can take care of 75% of compression duty and of course all your extra coloration duties.

Also 4 channels of D/A and 2 channels of A/D of higher quality is essential here too. 4 channels of D/A because 2 are for the processing loop, and 2 are for the realtime monitoring while you are processing the tracks with the hardware.

Once you learn how to fully utilize what the outboard pieces can bring to your mix, then a summing box or console is the next step IMO. And you should have enough of a budget to integrate it with a patchbay and cabling too.

[mobius.media]

PCM4222EVM is an 'EValuation Module' of the PCM4222 A/D converter. It is basically a prewired test circuit. It has built in AES3 and S/PDIF output. It even has a BNC master clock input for sync.

You can buy it here:
PCM4222EVM
PCM4222EVM - PCM4222EVM
PCM4222EVM Evaluation Module(DAP13866U): TI eStore

The tech manual is here:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ug/sbau124/sbau124.pdf

All you'd have to do is add a power supply to supply 15v (+/-) to the analog section and 5v (+) to the digital section. According to a Jim quote elsewhere, "Power One/Condor makes a nice small 3 output power supply that runs around $70." (Condor # HTAA-16W-A+G, Digi Key # 271-2289?)

Also, Jim, are there any similarly versatile/exceptional DAC modules that could share a PSU/enclosure for a full solution?

I never thought doing something like this would be practical, but it seems it really might be. Maybe we should start a new thread.

(btw, you rock Jim!)

[kekaiakea]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

I think for guys that are all ITB, before they get a summing box, they should have at least 1 really excellent stereo compressor, EQ, and 'warmth'/tape box i.e. Fatso, Rupert Neve 5042, etc. The Fatso is a good choice because it can take care of 75% of compression duty and of course all your extra coloration duties.

Also 4 channels of D/A and 2 channels of A/D of higher quality is essential here too. 4 channels of D/A because 2 are for the processing loop, and 2 are for the realtime monitoring while you are processing the tracks with the hardware.

Once you learn how to fully utilize what the outboard pieces can bring to your mix, then a summing box or console is the next step IMO. And you should have enough of a budget to integrate it with a patchbay and cabling too.

This is EXACTLY where I'm at.

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by Blues10

My mixes sound good to me until I have to reduce it to stereo ...

what do you mean by this?

you are happy with your ITB mixes, which you are hearing in stereo.

mixed, to stereo.

you are hearing your mix and you are happy with it, so what exactly are you hoping to achieve?

what, specifically, do you want to improve?

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I'd recommend getting a better converter... like a Crane Song LTD. "HEDD-192" or a Burl "B-2" if you can afford it.

FWIW I've found that for "hybrid" mixes [some stuff analog, automation in the box] that the SSL "Matrix" is a pretty damn handy tool.

As always... YMMV.

Peace.

why?

he doesn't have any outboard equipment to use when mixing, he is mixing purely ITB, therefore both of your suggestions are incorrect and would waste a lot of his money.

[la grange]

Hey Richie,
He has a mindprint and a DVC from langevin that can come handy at times.
against some plugins, they might be far better.
About your converters Blues 10, they are, to my opinion the best on the market. I did a test with SSL, AD16X, RME, Lynx, Digidesign and motu and they were the most transparent one.
Same track going through to converter 10 times. Some result were quiet interesting with compression being quiet obvious from a very respected name...
Only down point with SSL is the none adjustable input level. Pretty impossible to master OTB with those and that is when you might need something like benchmarkAD or Hedd 192.
Best of luck,
How's sunny Marseille? Is the Casa still as good as ever?

Oli

[dubrichie]

fair enough, but it's not much and it's not exactly very slutty.

my point was that until he gets a few pieces of serious quality outboard together, perhaps even including a summing unit, spending big money on fancy stereo converters is a nonsense. as is the SSL Matrix for that matter.

at least $10K worth of such outboard, hell, call it $20K.

get a few channels of seriously bad ass mono analog eq and compression first. use them on many sounds in each mix (and while tracking! wahey! super extra double bonus!).

this will give your mixes more mojo (or whatever you want to call it) from the inside out and, i reckon, more than just strapping a compressor across your otherwise all-plugin ITB mix.

it will improve your mixing skills as well as you learn to use each piece to the best of it's abilities in different ways on different sounds.

i have a pair of Purple MC-77s and the UAD plugins. anyone who claims that the sound, the tone, the mojo is the same is full of shit. i have also become much better at hearing and using compression in all situations through using them repeatedly. i get better every week and damn do i enjoy it much more too.

i mix with nothing on my master. for many projects i am asked to "master" my own mixes, but i do this only after getting the mix as good as i can with nothing on the master.

[bakerman]

I invested in a Dangerous 2-Bus about 18 months ago and never looked back. That unit now combined with my Apogees (DA-16X) made a significant difference when mixing.

[Blues10]

Sorry for replying so late ...

Yes, sunny summer here

I'm quite happy with my recording set-up, no need to improve pres or comp (I don't use it while tracking).

I made some research for a while and I have decided to go this way:

A folcrom to choose the color of the output pres (DSR-2, API, 2-610 or DVC)
An API 2500 or a Aurora GTC2
A stereo converter (still looking for the good one, may be the Universal Audio ...)

or this way : SSL X RACK with 2*8 line channels and a stereo comp + external adc conv ...

[Blues10]

dubrichie, while mixing, it's still 30 or more tracks into one stereo buss, then the DA and monitors. but after bouncing it to disk and so reducing it to a stereo track, I hear a difference. I would like to minimize this difference with a no brainer tool ...

[Brad McGowan]

Blues10,

You may want to check out the files I posted in the following thread. They compare the results of a passive Folcrom-style summing box to an ITB mix output through the same preamp used for make-up gain. Different gain staging approaches were evaluated. Levels very meticulously controlled so I think it's a very revealing comparison that may help you weigh your options. Anyway, check it out. There are two separate links--one for one set of clips, and one for the second. Once you listen to the clips you can PM me and I'll send you the answer key.

Clips A through D
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4335610-post50.html

Cips E through H
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4353439-post115.html

Brad

[Slikjmuzik]

What I'm getting from a number of your posts is that you're fine with your capture, pretty happy with where you're able to take that capture itb, but how those sounds, digitally are ending up into a 2-track you seem a bit dissatisfied with, you're missing depth, probably some width, intelligibility between instruments, focus, 3-dimensional feel...am I warm? I say you need a Dangerous 2busLT. Same exact circuitry of the regular one except you're not paying someone to hand solder 16 xlr inputs so you pay under $1500 for it. All inputs are dsub so cabling won't be made expensive either to integrate. I don't see a reason to compress a mix that has no vibe. Get your vibe and use a UAD 33609 or SSL Bus Comp in the mean time. They work perfectly fine for me.

[djanogil]

Originally Posted by bugsstar

i actually start with audiotracks not reaching -18dbFS
this gives me 18 db headroom for summing

you can use -12 also but i use -18 because liquid mix shows aliasing for some reason when input is louder than -18
but also it gives me alot of room without looking at meters and it sounds soooo much better !

That's the best advice IMO

[Blues10]

From what i've seen of the D-2buss and the LT one, there is somme diffences in the componants (dangerous website ...). So it's not exactly the same. Anyway this box is on my short list ...

Brad => I'm gonna check your samples today...

[Blues10]

Checked...
Honestly, I don't hear any noticeable difference between the tracks ...
I've heard it on my ADAM P33 thru SSL converter and on my hifi system...

here's my mail : gilles.ferrat at free.fr, please could you send me the explanation

[Brad McGowan]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to listen. The explanation is very simple. The differences are too minor for your ears/brain to care about them. Since that's the case, you should trust what you heard and pursue just getting a choice piece of outboard for your 2bus if feel that you want some additional coloration for your mixes. If you couldn't tell the difference between the internal ITB mix and any of the clips that travelled out of the computer, then you may just be happy staying ITB.

I'll email you the answer key!

Brad

[jacob]

A is best. Maybe ITB...?

[Brad McGowan]

Hi Jacob,

The results for clips A-D have been posted in the other thread. Check it out if you want to know if you guessed correctly. Be sure to check out clips E-H. I think those are more interesting.

Brad