Actual parts cost for preamps?

[jwnc]

Hey guys,

Have a question just for my own interest. I know you can't get something for nothing and I know there is alot of research that goes into designing a great sounding preamp. But I am curious just in raw componants and parts are alot of the higher end preamps over priced? Do the parts themselves closely relate to some of the prices? Or is it more about R & D and quality control.

Just curious..

Jason

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by jwnc

But I am curious just in raw componants and parts are alot of the higher end preamps over priced? Do the parts themselves closely relate to some of the prices? Or is it more about R & D and quality control.

You can build a preamp for $15 in parts.

It won't sound like a GML though.

[max cooper]

Hey, not only that, a human body is only worth about 4.50 when it's broken down into the chemicals and minerals, no matter who's body it is.

"The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body, which breaks down as follows:

65% Oxygen
18% Carbon
10% Hydrogen
3% Nitrogen
1.5% Calcium
1% Phosphorous
0.35% Potassium
0.25% Sulfur
0.15% Sodium
0.15% Chlorine
0.05% Magnesium
0.0004% Iron
0.00004% Iodine

Additionally, it was discovered that our bodies contain trace quantities of fluorine, silicon, manganese, zinc, copper, aluminum, and arsenic. Together, all of the above amounts to less than one dollar!"

[jwnc]

This wasn't implied to think that preamps are over priced, etc. It was just my personal curiosity. I realize that you have to pay for quality...

Jason

[bpatural]

Go to the DIY section of this site www.gyraf.dk and get the instructions to build your own pres. I made the ssl compressor and it was about a tenth the cost of the store bought one. The most expensive parts were the power transformer, the meter and the box...the electronics were all cheap.
-brian

[gregl]

This is a very ballpark whack, tube stuff will be more:

Seriously, if you break it down-for a "hi end" preamp (assuming it has transformer input) that uses discrete op amps for instance:

Transformer: minimum $50, maybe $125 (these are not quantity prices),mult by 2 for input and output
Power transformer: $30 to $100
Stepped attenuator: $100-$250
Discrete op amp: $50-$75 (some designs use 2)
Miscellanous passive componenents (caps,resistors fuses,etc): $10-$30
LED's $5
Power cord: $1-$5
Switches for power, phantom $5-$10
Misc diodes and transistors,chips $10-$30
Connectors: $10 min.
Wire: This depends on the religion of the designer and could be anywhere from a couple of dollars to much more for the tweaky stuff.
Enclosure: This is very product specific but figure at least $50 in small quantities
(I could be off base here either way)
Hardware (screws,feet,grommets etc): Again product specific
Phantom power supply: $20-50 depending on the quality of the supply
Then you also have printed circuit board (most cases)
Solder (less than a dollar)

I know I left some things out but you get the idea....

[Dan Kennedy]

Greg's numbers aren't too far off, but you can't forget:

Mortgage
Electric and Gas Bill
Health Insurance
Errors and Omissions Insurance
Building Insurance
Workers Comp
Telephone Bill
Internet Bill
Taxes
Wages
Advertizing
Shipping Materials

You get the idea...

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by jwnc

This wasn't implied to think that preamps are over priced, etc. It was just my personal curiosity. I realize that you have to pay for quality...

Maybe I mis-read this question of yours:

But I am curious just in raw componants and parts are a lot of the higher end preamps over priced?

On the other hand, you're right. You did not imply it.

[brownmouse]

Originally Posted by Dan Kennedy

Greg's numbers aren't too far off, but you can't forget:

Mortgage
Electric and Gas Bill
Health Insurance
Errors and Omissions Insurance
Building Insurance
Workers Comp
Telephone Bill
Internet Bill
Taxes
Wages
Advertizing
Shipping Materials

You get the idea...

not to mention all the time and effort / trial and error to come up with a killer design (like the great river mp-2nv ).
joshua

[jwnc]

I totally understand about R&D and getting paid for your knowledge, trial and error, etc.

Maybe I should have been more clear or not even started the thread.. haha

Jason

[tINY]

You can't forget about the volume, either. If mackie takes the time to design a pretty good onyx pre-amp and optomizes it for high-volume production, it will cost a lot less. If you want one that's a little better, it may cost several times more because they may only sell 100 units a month.

Of course, once you are building small quanitties and paying for hand soldering and custom chassis work, little niceties like cool knobs and three-color paint jobs don't add that much more to the price.

Just think what it would cost for 32 custom-from-the-ground-up pre amps designed specifically for your tastes....




-tINY

[gregl]

Yeah, I left out one very important part-even if you buy all those components and have the necessary test equipment, assembly facilities,etc. there is an awful
lot of skill, knowledge, sweat, art, trial and error before the gap between good and great can be bridged. It takes a lot to consistantly turn out great designs that are manufacturable and reliable to boot.

Dan, you have a great point. There is a lot of additional overhead for those doing this as a business and my post didn't even touch on that.

[GMR]

But to answer the question, look at SCA prices, cut a few bucks and you're in the ballpark, he charges for his kits a bit to pack and gather everything which is fair & understandable so... and these are not cheap sounding pre's. Neve APi Hardy...

[rsolinski]

The seventh circle stuff is about right..Tim isn't making much on those kits...Some of Gregl's numbers were a little skewed....a stepped attenuator is not 200$ unless it is made out of 24 carat gold..Discrete transistors and diodes can be had for about 10 -20 cents a pop (Just ask Dan Kennedy) and remember that manufacturers are buying in quantities at discounts, not the one off price..30 bucks for passive components? Hardly...Discrete opamps are in the 50-100$ range although you can build them too for considerably less...An Api 312 has 1 2520 opamp in it and the original transformers were dirt cheap until they gained cult status..I think the other mentioned overhead costs (heat, insurance etc...) and R&D are what drive the costs of higher priced gear..not to mention G.A.S and supply and demand..

Ray

[Foldedpath]

I have one of Dan's preamps (MP-2NV), and I think it was one of the best purchases I've made for my tiny home studio. It's built like a tank, and the transformers probably weren't cheap, but I'm not looking at the parts cost when I buy something like this. I'm buying into a hardware designer's ears and experience. As a small business owner, I can also relate to the overhead factors.

The acoustic and electric guitars I use now for my personal playing and recording are mostly custom orders, from small-shop luthiers. The cost of the wood in those guitars is bupkis... maybe a few hundred dollars, at the luthier's wholesale cost. That's not what I'm paying for when I order a guitar like that.

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by jwnc

Hey guys,

Have a question just for my own interest. I know you can't get something for nothing and I know there is alot of research that goes into designing a great sounding preamp. But I am curious just in raw componants and parts are alot of the higher end preamps over priced? Do the parts themselves closely relate to some of the prices? Or is it more about R & D and quality control.

Just curious..

Jason

Your car probably only costs a fraction in parts then what its worth as a complete car.

One person looks and see's just a bunch of parts, another looks and see's it as possible poetry in motion... That in itself has a price for admission...

It takes a long time to design a peice of pro audio gear... it's not just the concoction of one idea either... the actually PCB and chassis layout is like a whole 'nother design stage... It's gotta materialise some how. It can take months to design and test a properly a working unit before they are even released to anyone! That time is potential money and has to be made back in at somepoint... It's a business after all... and time is money!

There is also the time it takes to build and test every unit... The gear thats used and requires upkeep... a location to build it all... employee wages... etc... etc... they all have to come from somewhere... whether it be the units they are selling or tech work they are doing...

I doubt Tim Farrant (Buzz Audio), Jakob E. (Gyraf Audio), Geoff Tanner (Aurora Audio), etc, etc are rolling in $$$$. I'm sure they have slogged there arses off to materialise an idea and a passion that they think other people will enjoy.

They'd probably earning significantly more if they were working in a large telecommunications firm designing cellphones... but money isn't everything...

Not to mention distribution and retail markups to cover the costs and wages of the distributers employees and retail employees...

[rsolinski]

Oh hell yeah..I would buy a ton of Dan's stuff if I could..the guy is one of the best in the business (ears and honesty!)...I heard the Great River mic pre and the eq last month...fabulous..I build because I have to...but boy oh boy when my ship comes in

Ray

ps..but I am definately not building instruments..my wife would have me commited

[Dan Kennedy]

Ray's also right to an extent, I missed the stepped attenuator cost. But if I added all the shop cost's to what an Elma switch at $28/c, plus a circuit board for $0.40/c plus resistors, plus testing, it'd be a $200 item for sale.

So it's a little mixed in the previous estimates, which I glossed over...I do that a lot, and it pisses off my business partner to no end.

But the scale is fairly close. The old 1:5 ratio of goods built vs sold isn't much off the mark. If it is, your business won't succeed.

You all should've been around in the '90's when the MP-2MH cost only $750. About a case of beer more than it cost me to make.

And I thought I was cleanning up!

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by Dan Kennedy

About a case of beer more than it cost me to make.

i got a case of beer with your name on it

[gregl]

My stepped attenuator cost is based on the cost to buy some of the ones I have seen in a few hi end units straight out from Welborne or some of the other places that use very expensive switches and $2 a pop resistors. I know you can build one yourself for less but it doesn't take into account labor costs of soldering all the resistors on. And yeah you can build a stepped unit cheaper, but really decent, reliable switches that don't mess up the audio quality are still pretty expensive. And there is some pretty great sounding stuff out there that doesn't use $2 resistors and gold plated contacts, but again go and price ELMA switches you would trust to put in you client's or company's gear.

Oddly enough, I had this discussion on another forum a couple of years ago and got beaten bloody for estimating a stepped attenuator could be built for around $100 or less (apparently the esoteric parts crowd isn't hanging out here).

As I said in the first post, my estimate was pretty ballpark, based on one plausible and commonly seen architecture, and parts choices in some of the pricier pres I have had the privelage of looking inside. The main point I was trying to make is that it's not as cheap as one would think for the parts, much less manufacture, a great preamp.

Kudos to the guys who can manufacture great sounding units at what are really pretty reasonable prices for what you get (Dan Kennedy included).

[dasbin]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

Your car probably only costs a fraction in parts then what its worth as a complete car.

My car is a piece. The sum total of all the parts in it is worth way more than what I bought it for, or what I'd get if I sold it again.

As to the original topic here... I managed to build two channels of A.P.I.-ish pres in a rack case with lots of pretty lights and useable features for about $550 Canadian by the time I was finished. It would've been less if I was more experienced... I blew up one power transformer and several large-value caps in the testing process, and botched my first paint job. I built the opamps myself so I managed to save some component cost there... they cost me about $10 each vs. $75 similar potted ones are sold for.
Biggest expenses were transformers ($40 USD ea for input trafos, $25 USD ea for output trafos, $25 for power transformer), the rack case ($50), connectors ($40) and shipping on everything... me screwing up, combined with needing to get parts from multiple sources, meant quite a few seperate orders.
I built the whole thing using some PCB's bought from one of the kind folk at groupdiy.com and followed their advise for design in general and schematics for the opamps.

By far the biggest expense is time, though. It took me a good 6 months of many weekends to build. Often could only do one thing at a time because I was always waiting on parts or new knowlege. Then you have to get all the bugs out, come up with a good grounding scheme, etc etc.
The end result sounds great and I'm proud and glad to have built this thing, even if it's only a clone and used other people's schematics and PCB's. But in reality, economically speaking, it wouldn't be worth it for most people, and high-end commercial preamps are often worth every penny. I definitely have the utmost respect for pro audio companies, especially small-time ones like GR and JLM. And especially their original R&D. I do this because I like to, and because I'm a starving student with far more time than money (though not much of either). I hope to one day create my own designs, and put them to use in my studio.
The end result isn't as pretty and has its quirks in functionality (knobs can't turn without rubbing a bit, paint job and labelling suck, buttons are a bit sticky, sometimes opamps oscillate at very low gains unless you twiddle the volume a bit). But it sounds at least as good, which is the important part.

[chipwits]

Originally Posted by rsolinski

...Some of Gregl's numbers were a little skewed....a stepped attenuator is not 200$ unless it is made out of 24 carat gold..

I've seen stepped transformer based passive attenuators for over $1k in parts alone.

James