Question for Michael Wagener about Royers

[echo unit]

Michael,

I have question for you regarding guitar amps and miking in a solo situation.

I know that you love the Royer R121/122 and find them superior to the standard SM57 on overdriven guitars in a rock mix.

If you were doing a recording where the only instrument was a single guitar track, a stratocaster or Gibson SG lets say plugged into a Vox AC 30 set for a very clean open sound, what mic would you use to capture the full frequency range of this set up?

Still the Royer?

Vox AC 30's to me have the widest frequency response of any amp. They seem to to have the shimmering highs and the deep but tight low end unlike the mushy saggy low end of most Fender Amps.

The Royers are great mics but would they capture the entire picture of that Amp better than any mic or would a different mic like a condensor be your first choice if nothing else were to accompany that guitar track but some effects in the end?

In a recording situation where there won't be any drums or bass or vocals and therefore the guitar will be free to take up all those frequencies the other instrumetns would occupy what approach do you think is a good one?

Do yo think a Royer R121/122 is the best mic for guitars that will fit into a dense mix and for solo recordings as well?

Thanks for taking the plunge into this one.

[rlnyc]

Originally Posted by echo unit

Michael,


If you were doing a recording where the only instrument was a single guitar track, a stratocaster or Gibson SG lets say plugged into a Vox AC 30 set for a very clean open sound, what mic would you use to capture the full frequency range of this set up?

Still the Royer?

i am not michael, but YES. ribbons are the most realistic microphone technology to accurately capture what is in front of it. more so than condensors, which have a frequency center lift (as the result of tensioning on the diaphram) which is much higher than ribbons (where it is in the very low end).

one other thing worth note: a guitar through a "clean" amp is NOT "full frequency range"! guitar amps are not very accurate and full frequency - even at a "clean" setting. for that reason, condensor mics alone are rarely the best first choice on guitar rigs. there's a reason why such a biased mic as the 57 has been the mic of choice for many years - because it is skewed in a favorable direction for the freqeuncy output of a guitar amp. YMMV.

Originally Posted by echo unit

Do you think a Royer R121/122 is the best mic for guitars that will fit into a dense mix and for solo recordings as well?

again, YES.

best,
rlnyc.

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by echo unit

Michael,

I have question for you regarding guitar amps and miking in a solo situation.

I know that you love the Royer R121/122 and find them superior to the standard SM57 on overdriven guitars in a rock mix.

If you were doing a recording where the only instrument was a single guitar track, a stratocaster or Gibson SG lets say plugged into a Vox AC 30 set for a very clean open sound, what mic would you use to capture the full frequency range of this set up?

Still the Royer?

Vox AC 30's to me have the widest frequency response of any amp. They seem to to have the shimmering highs and the deep but tight low end unlike the mushy saggy low end of most Fender Amps.

The Royers are great mics but would they capture the entire picture of that Amp better than any mic or would a different mic like a condensor be your first choice if nothing else were to accompany that guitar track but some effects in the end?

In a recording situation where there won't be any drums or bass or vocals and therefore the guitar will be free to take up all those frequencies the other instrumetns would occupy what approach do you think is a good one?

Do yo think a Royer R121/122 is the best mic for guitars that will fit into a dense mix and for solo recordings as well?

Thanks for taking the plunge into this one.

The Royer ribbon mic and a guitar amp/speaker cab (of any kind) are just a great marriage. The Royer is capable of transferring a lot higher frequencies than your amp/speaker will put out, but it has a certain character that works very well with what an amp speaker combination puts out. IMO the most important contributor to sound in a guitar amp is the output transformer. You can hear them buzzing along with your guitar sound and that buzz has to be just right, smooth, not grainy. A "not-so-good" output transformer will create exactly that buzz on top of your guitar signal, which will show up as harsh distortion in your over all signal. In the room it will be masked by the volume of the cabinet, but you will be able to hear it in the mix, especially when the lower frequncies are covered by other instruments. Stick your fingers in your ears about halfway (for lack of a better term) and listen if you can hear just that buzz in your signal. Now, that is exactly what the Royer determines as "junk" and doesn't translate as much (in layman's terms). A 57 has a bump in exactly that range and if you stick it right in the middle of the speaker (where my Royers live) you get a lot of that "noise". That's why most people point a 57 sideways to the speaker, away from the center.

So, in answer to your question: Yes, in my book a R-121 is THE perfect mic to record electric guitar of any kind. I personally like the R-121 better for guitar than the R122, but the R122 with it's extra 15dB of level and slightly faster dynamics around 3-4kHz is great for other sources like combo amps, overheads, the low part of an acoustic guitar, most percussion or natural instruments.

Hope this helps.

[not_so_new]

Great Michael thanks for the advice.

So you said...

A 57 has a bump in exactly that range and if you stick it right in the middle of the speaker (where my Royers live) you get a lot of that "noise".

I have two questions about that.

I have not used my R121 yet (I am in the last stages of wiring up the new studio) so I have not gotten to play around with it. I have never used a guitar mic on the center of a guitar speaker in my life, never sounded right to me. Are you saying that this is because I was using a condenser or a dynamic mic and that you start with the R121 in the center of the speaker cone when getting guitar sounds and move from there??

That is really foreign territory to me...... Or are you still finding that the R121 ends up somewhere in between the outer edge of the speaker and the center speaker cone where most dynamics and condensers end up (at least for me).

Secondly are you using any other mic with the R121 or do you normally just use one mic on a electric guitar.

Thanks again.

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Great Michael thanks for the advice.

So you said...



I have two questions about that.

I have not used my R121 yet (I am in the last stages of wiring up the new studio) so I have not gotten to play around with it. I have never used a guitar mic on the center of a guitar speaker in my life, never sounded right to me. Are you saying that this is because I was using a condenser or a dynamic mic and that you start with the R121 in the center of the speaker cone when getting guitar sounds and move from there??

Yes, I put it in the middle of the cone and leave it there.

Originally Posted by not_so_new

That is really foreign territory to me...... Or are you still finding that the R121 ends up somewhere in between the outer edge of the speaker and the center speaker cone where most dynamics and condensers end up (at least for me).

Nope stays right in the middle

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Secondly are you using any other mic with the R121 or do you normally just use one mic on a electric guitar.

Thanks again.

Yes I do use other mics, mainly because I only have two 121s (bad gearslut, bad, bad...). When you look at the picture you see the mics right in the middle of the speaker on a slight angle to the speaker plane. The two 121s are picking up the left and right side of the Randall cab (different powr tubes) and the 4040 picks up the ENGL cab. There is also an old 409 (Udo's vocal mic from the "Balls To The Walls" sessions ) on the Marshall cab on the right. I set up this way so I can bring up and mix different mics for different sounds really quick. The other cabs on the left might be used on different tracks, depending on what sound we're going for. The band is playing mainly old LesPauls, so I'm going for the brighter cabinets on this one.

[everybody's x]

hey Michael, what's up with that ratty torn up speaker on the top left?
a secret weapon perhaps?

I think I would use Udo's vocal mic on everything on general principal, even if the track is muted thumbsup

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

hey Michael, what's up with that ratty torn up speaker on the top left?
a secret weapon perhaps?

I think I would use Udo's vocal mic on everything on general principal, even if the track is muted thumbsup

I bought that during the Slave To The Grind sessions. It is an original 25W Greenback cab with two different speakers on the bottom. I think the left one is an Altec and the other is an old G12H. I finally cut off the grill cloth because it was always a little dull and this is what came out Great sounding cab depending on which speaker you mic . When it still had the grill cloth we always picked the bottom right one (30W)

[Jamz]

Michael
The 4040 is very new.
Comments, pros/cons/applications on the 4040?
I noticed it's angled down a bit. Is that to help protect the ribbon a bit?

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Michael
The 4040 is very new.
Comments, pros/cons/applications on the 4040?
I noticed it's angled down a bit. Is that to help protect the ribbon a bit?

I don't have enough experience with the 4040 yet to make any statements, but I'll report back. Yes it's angled to protect the ribbon from straight on SPL attack.

[Jamz]

Looking forward to hearing of your experiences with it.
Good luck with the 4040.

[not_so_new]

Thanks for sharing with us Michael!!!

Originally Posted by mwagener

Yes, I put it in the middle of the cone and leave it there.

Nope stays right in the middle

So is this a "ribbon thing" or is this something that you would do with a dynamic mic as well??

Yes I do use other mics, mainly because I only have two 121s (bad gearslut, bad, bad...). When you look at the picture you see the mics right in the middle of the speaker on a slight angle to the speaker plane. The two 121s are picking up the left and right side of the Randall cab (different powr tubes) and the 4040 picks up the ENGL cab. There is also an old 409 (Udo's vocal mic from the "Balls To The Walls" sessions ) on the Marshall cab on the right. I set up this way so I can bring up and mix different mics for different sounds really quick. The other cabs on the left might be used on different tracks, depending on what sound we're going for. The band is playing mainly old LesPauls, so I'm going for the brighter cabinets on this one.

So technically you are only using one mic pre speaker then and you are using different speakers for different sounds?? If you were recording one tone from one cab with one amp would you use two mics still or just the single R121??

Thanks again.

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Thanks for sharing with us Michael!!!



So is this a "ribbon thing" or is this something that you would do with a dynamic mic as well??

probably a ribbon thing. But as you can see in the picture (well it's hard to see actually) the 409 is also right in the middle of the speaker. I just think that the speaker projects best in that area and I'd rather change the sound of the amp to not have as much high end, but I'm weird like that

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So technically you are only using one mic pre speaker then and you are using different speakers for different sounds?? If you were recording one tone from one cab with one amp would you use two mics still or just the single R121??

Thanks again.

All correct. Why mic the same sound twice?

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by mwagener

probably a ribbon thing. But as you can see in the picture (well it's hard to see actually) the 409 is also right in the middle of the speaker. I just think that the speaker projects best in that area and I'd rather change the sound of the amp to not have as much high end, but I'm weird like that

So you back down the highs and you get a good tone from the middle of the speaker. I have never tried that, cone placement was/is always thin to me. How drastic is the high end roll off on the guitar amp then?? Does it end up sounding muddy in the room or is the high end roll off more subtle than that?

All correct. Why mic the same sound twice?

Well I have done it before with varying degrees of success. 414 and a 57, for some detail and some meat, D112 and u87 for even more meat and detail yadda yadda.

I don't do it all the time but it seems to occasionally work for me to get the best of both worlds out of different mics, preamps and different placements on the same speaker. I guess YMMV huh?

So Michael, I know you are using the Randall R2/50 with both sides of the tubes on for different tones but do you use different guitar amps strapped together on the same take often or have you in the past??

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So you back down the highs and you get a good tone from the middle of the speaker. I have never tried that, cone placement was/is always thin to me. How drastic is the high end roll off on the guitar amp then?? Does it end up sounding muddy in the room or is the high end roll off more subtle than that?

That, of course, depends on the actual sound, no general rules here. Is it too bright through your monitors? - back 'em down some more, but don't loose the attack of the pick.

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Well I have done it before with varying degrees of success. 414 and a 57, for some detail and some meat, D112 and u87 for even more meat and detail yadda yadda.
I don't do it all the time but it seems to occasionally work for me to get the best of both worlds out of different mics, preamps and different placements on the same speaker. I guess YMMV huh?

I never had much luck with a 414 or a 87 on a guitarcab. The 112 sounds nasal to me, scooping out some important guitar frequncies. I think the trick is to match a darker mic with a brighter signal and the other way around. In the 80 I used the Fostex M11RP ribbon mic a lot for guitar. I had to "subscribe" to ribbons on those because they would last only for a few takes Still got 6 of those, great room mics too.

Originally Posted by not_so_new

So Michael, I know you are using the Randall R2/50 with both sides of the tubes on for different tones but do you use different guitar amps strapped together on the same take often or have you in the past??

Yes. I tend to get different tones with different amps and mix those together to one track (watch your phase relationship, very important). Some amps are better for high end and some better for low end. I had a guitar made with 3 pickups and an output jack for each pickup. That way it can go into 3 different amps without downloading the guitar output. Normally I use a Bradshaw 1 in - 4 out splitter (+tuner out). It has 4 transformers built in and divides the signal into 4 outputs without affecting each other. Another great unit for this is the Radial JD-7, which also has a "load" pot to match the load to your pickup, cool box.

In order to figure out what different mics sound like, set up a monitor speaker in the studio (preferably something like a Tannoy concentric, where everything comes out of the same hole, easier to mic than a two way/three way system), feed it pink noise, doesn't have to be super loud, and place different mics about a foot away from the speaker, one mic at a time. Use your most "neutral" mic pre and listen to different mics, record them to separate tracks at the same level, all placed in the same spot in front of the speaker. Then note what those mics sound like, where are their dips, where do they hype the sound, great for forming a "mic picture" in your mind. Save those tracks for later reference. Then analyze the sound coming from your cabinet (or any recording source) according to dips and hypes and match it with the "opposite mic picture" from the noise test. A source signal with a hype around 2 K probably wants to see a mic with a dip at that frequency. Takes a while, but well worth the effort.

[Jamz]

My 121 just arrived and the IBP Jr. should be here today as well.
Guess what mic will be used during tomorrow's session on the electric guitars. thumbsup

[Jamz]

BTW Michael,
Peter Baltes emailed me yesterday. Accept is currently in Tokyo.
He has his family with him and they'll be returning the end of August.

Jim

[rlnyc]

Originally Posted by mwagener

I had a guitar made with 3 pickups and an output jack for each pickup. That way it can go into 3 different amps without downloading the guitar output.

WOW! brilliant. why didn't i thunk of that???

(for that matter, why hasn't any guitar manufacturer thought of that? sounds like a winner. michael, you ought to get a patent on it, quick.)

best regards,
rlnyc.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by mwagener

That, of course, depends on the actual sound, no general rules here. Is it too bright through your monitors? - back 'em down some more, but don't loose the attack of the pick.

I guess I did not make my point very well… I do that sometimes…. I think most people (me at least) do the "get the tone at the source as you want it and then do everything you can to get that sound to tape" trick but it sounds like you are working from the opposite end. Can't say that I have never done the adjust tone to match thing but it is just backwards from how I would normally approach the situation. I normally get the tone in the room from the amp and player then if it is the right tone for the song hit play and record, if it is not try another amp.

I never had much luck with a 414 or a 87 on a guitarcab.

414s work for me on some clean guitar parts mixed with a dynamic, it is really a one trick pony. The 87 seems to work for me starting at 3 or 4 feet from the amp and working out not in. Just were some of the room starts leaking into the source, good for bluesy 70's rock stuff but again not all the time.

The 112 sounds nasal to me, scooping out some important guitar frequncies.

I hear the same thing with the 112 but it does work for me on some tuned to Z flat 7 string over distorted "nu-metal" guitars. Again mixed with another good dynamic.

Yes. I tend to get different tones with different amps and mix those together to one track (watch your phase relationship, very important).

Little Labs baby Little Labs thumbsup

Some amps are better for high end and some better for low end. I had a guitar made with 3 pickups and an output jack for each pickup. That way it can go into 3 different amps without downloading the guitar output.

Do you have a "thing" you look for between each amp or is it hit or miss? My "thing" is to have a nice mostly clean sound to go with an outrageous distorted amp or a springy distortion with a thick distortion. I guess my question would be do you match amps that are radically different, like a Twin and a Triple Rec or are your amp pairings more in the same stream like a Plexi and a JCM 800 for example?

Normally I use a Bradshaw 1 in - 4 out splitter (+tuner out). It has 4 transformers built in and divides the signal into 4 outputs without affecting each other. Another great unit for this is the Radial JD-7, which also has a "load" pot to match the load to your pickup, cool box.

In the old days I used to just strap the inputs of two amp together. I know it messes with the impedance but…

Anyway that worked for me and I would like to try a "Bradshaw" type of thing but that is too much cash for me right now. Anything else out there that does splitting duties?? I think the Little Labs Redeye does but I will have to check into it.

In order to figure out what different mics sound like, set up a monitor speaker in the studio (preferably something like a Tannoy concentric, where everything comes out of the same hole, easier to mic than a two way/three way system), feed it pink noise, doesn't have to be super loud, and place different mics about a foot away from the speaker, one mic at a time. Use your most "neutral" mic pre and listen to different mics, record them to separate tracks at the same level, all placed in the same spot in front of the speaker. Then note what those mics sound like, where are their dips, where do they hype the sound, great for forming a "mic picture" in your mind. Save those tracks for later reference. Then analyze the sound coming from your cabinet (or any recording source) according to dips and hypes and match it with the "opposite mic picture" from the noise test. A source signal with a hype around 2 K probably wants to see a mic with a dip at that frequency. Takes a while, but well worth the effort.

Yes very cool, thanks. I always say that the thing to look for is not a mic that accentuates the source but leans away from it. If you have a source with lots of lows don't put a mic and a preamp on it with a tilt towards the low end put a mic and pre on it that is a little skinny to even it out a bit.

Thanks again Michael.

[brendondp]

Great thread Michael.

Cheers to you,

bdp