Need a simple but high end guitar splitter

[markchatwin]

I have posted before about wanting a high end guitar splitter. Trouble is the best ones are $800 - $2000 (Creation Audio MW1, Lucas Deceiver, Little Labs PCP, Custom Audio's Amp Selectors, Vrtacic Design, etc.). I plan on getting one when the finances rebound after tax season.

I have tried the Lehle P-Split but noticed high end loss. Burkhard Lehle explained that another of his products, Sunday Driver, combined with the P-Slit would remedy the situation. But I'd like one unit to do the job and idealistically I'd like it to be a useful item in the studio after I get one of the more expensive units in paragraph one.

One item that comes to mind is the Little Labs STD. It is meant to allow a long cable run in the studio but it does split the guitar in the box. This could be used down the road if I have a guitar player who plays in the control room with his amp in my live room. I have read a review that says this box adds a "hifi" effect to the tone. What that effect is I don't know but it sure sounds like this would be a "colored" splitter?

So how about a Smart Research unit that does what the STD does but is a bit more expensive?

The there's the Radial Tonebone Switcher. The concept is cool. It has a load correction control and a boost function. But again I've read reviews that it works on some guitars better than others (Good for Strat, Bad for Les Paul). Plus if I got something like that the more expensive ones would put it into the gear cemetary.

I need a simple splitter that won't result in much tone loss and get me through until I get a bigger unit - Thanks!

[heyman]

Little Labs Std..

No signal Loss...!

One input, 2 outs..

I use it and Highly recommend it..
High Quailty..

About 125.00 bucks..

http://www.littlelabs.com/std.html






..

[Daedalus77]

I don't have the LL PCP, but I have just about everything else they make, and I concur with the previous poster and the STD. Really, really cool. And not very expensive. Combine it with their Red-Eye, and you've got the total guitar splitter, re-amp, DI package. Very reasonable and great sonically.

(FWIW: We've got a full one-rack-unit of LL gear sitting just above the patch-bay—the Red-Eye, a couple IBP Jr.s, and a RedCloud. It's the ultimate one-rack-space of utility gear, just where you need it.)

Best of luck.

[markchatwin]

Daedalus and Heyman - Thanks - Daedalus - what do you use the Red Cloud for in relation to guitar splitting and reamping or do you just use it as a general attenuator?

[heyman]

I liked the Splitter so much, I went out and bought 2 of his Phase boxes..

They rock..

[matskull]

Anything else with more than 2 out that doesn't cost too much?
just curious.

[Stevedresser83]

yea im looking for a 4 out with no quality loss at all.

[markchatwin]

On the STD how is the signal slit? Is there a transformer? Could I have a potential ground loop or is there a Ground lift on it? Thanks.

[heyman]

There is a Ground lift switch on the box itself.. The Custom cable is extremely important as well.. No transformers.. You can see the ground lift swtich in the pic I attached..



Here is some info from the web..

"The single transistor unity gain buffer circuit utilized in the STD is mounted inside the special copper tipped phone plug itself. This elegantly simple buffer circuit was designed to load the instrument pickup properly for a natural frequency response regardless of cable length and also will eliminate susceptibility of the cable to extraneous noise sources."


..

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by heyman

Little Labs Std..

No signal Loss...!

One input, 2 outs..

I use it and Highly recommend it..
High Quailty..

About 125.00 bucks..

http://www.littlelabs.com/std.html

..

+1

[red_cahill]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

I don't have the LL PCP, but I have just about everything else they make, and I concur with the previous poster and the STD. Really, really cool. And not very expensive. Combine it with their Red-Eye, and you've got the total guitar splitter, re-amp, DI package. Very reasonable and great sonically.

(FWIW: We've got a full one-rack-unit of LL gear sitting just above the patch-bay—the Red-Eye, a couple IBP Jr.s, and a RedCloud. It's the ultimate one-rack-space of utility gear, just where you need it.)

Best of luck.

Will this work like this? interface--->Red-Eye--->STD---->Amp-A/Amp-B
I'd like to reamp 2 amps, is it still ok to use the std as a splitter after the red-eye?

[markchatwin]

Starting using the STD today... First impression - OK quality - Guitar through special purple cable into the box and then one 20' Monster cable into Amp A and a 20'Monster cable into AMP B. Sounded OK to me, kind of chimey, brilliant, trebly tone out of both amps. Both amps are Mesa Boogie Mark II C's set on the same standard clean tone setting. Same cabinets as well.

Then I just listened to one amp and again bright detailed tone. When I switched to direct patching into the amp the tone seemed to be a touch louder and fuller-bodied. My preferred tone was just a guitar patched straight in.

But feeling that the differences were subtle I decided to record one amp with and without the STD. Mic placement and gain and guitar settings were exactly the same. The only variable was my actual playing of this chord progression. I tried to play exactly the same on each track.

Going back and forth listening to each track, set at the same volume with no effects or EQ, the results were loss of warmth and roundness of tone with the STD. Even a bit less overall volume. The trebly chimey nature of the guitar part was still there. The direct track still had enough brightness but the body was there in the tone. Again these differences were subtle but there.

A similar test done on the Lehle P-Split purchased a month ago showed obvious high end loss. Not so on the Little labs STD. However some warmth and body was lost. The Lehle tone was definitely clouded over. This STD tone I think I can live with for the pricepoint.

These initial thoughts are not tested enough to be conclusive to my ear. But on first impression there is signal loss and even an impression of more high end with the STD. Quite possibly an effect of having a bit less body and warmth.

My questions are: Could the extra cable length (essentially the purple cable length) have effected this? When using the STD should I run as short as possible cable into the amps? What would happen to the tone if I added length to the purple cable? Would the $1000+ units with more splits be better quality or should I say replicate the original tone more accurately? Is it simply true that you cannot split the signal without some change in tone?

[guittarzzan]

In true GS spirit, I would recommend holding out until you can splurge on the MW1. I just got one a few weeks back and the combination of the variable impedance and clean boost are awesome. This is the first time I've had a chance to mess with impedance on a guitar signal and the variety of tones/feels you can get are well worth the price of admission imo. If I want a crisper or softer bite/attack from the pick, I can play with the bias instead of playing guessing games with eq etc.
The MW1, the Axe Fx and my cheetah print man thong are 3 of the best purchases I've ever made.

[markchatwin]

Exactly why I decided to purchase something inexpensive and wait till I have the money to get something that will do the job. But I don't really want more tone shaping abilities. I want the original sound of my guitar into the Mesa Boogie. For me the Mark II C+ needs no more tonal shaping possibilities. Just the original tone of the guitar patched straight in. Now if the MW1 can be adjusted to arrive at the original tone then I would love that unit...

This is why I fear high end splitters. Because if I spend big bucks on something and the tone is different I'll be stuck. I know the argument that you can make up for the tone with the other amplifiers. But I want the original tone except coming out of 2 or more amplifiers or maybe a feed going into a Tube DI box called the A Designs Reddi that does great things with a clean Strat...

So far Lehle - loss of high end
STD - loss of warmth and body

[littlelabs]

If the STD was new give it a couple days use, it will warm up after a short period of break in. This isn't audiofool mojo it's just a new electrolytic cap takes a lil time to polarize correctly. I break in all the other littlelabs stuff for 24 hours before shipping, but on the STD because of being battery operated I don't. You can add long cables after the base unit if you like and it will work fine. The purple cable should be plugged in as close to the guitar output as possible, either into the guitar jack or your last pedal. The STD basically eliminates the cable capacitance because it converts the guitar to lo z (lo z is far less susceptible to capacitance) and if it's plugged into the guitar it's like you aren't using a cable. If you like the roll off of the cable you use, use a barrel connector plug your cable into your guitar then the other end into the barrel connnector (female/female) than the STD cable that will give you the roll off you might have liked when plugging straight into the amp without the std. Hope that helps.
J

[markchatwin]

Just spoke with Jonathan at Little Labs for some direct input. A completely honest guy... I came into this splitter thing thinking I can get the exact sound of my 20 ft Monster Cable plugged direct into my amp. I was plugging from the guitar to STD purple cable to STD box through two 20' Monster ables into two amps. The impedance changes at the 1/4 jack of the purple cable so he mentioned that I try to connect the Monster cable to the guitar first and then use a barrel connector to connect into the purple STD cable then thru the STD box to the amps. This would give me back some of the Monster cable tone. There are a lot of things at play here and so the tone is bound to change.

Bottom line is I can let up with this quest to get the exact tone of my Strat through a 20' Monster cable plugged in direct. Instead I should look for a tone through a splitter that I can like equally as well...

[matskull]

Or maybe you could get something like the dragster from radial to correct the impedance that your pickups see when you use the splitter....
I didn't try it though.

[Bonemeister]

Just a tought... the Radial JDV has four outputs and retails for $450. This may fit your budget. And it is equipped with drag control to ensure your tone is maintained. Peter

[SeanG]

Originally Posted by guittarzzan

The MW1, the Axe Fx and my cheetah print man thong are 3 of the best purchases I've ever made.

.

[Stevedresser83]

so there is no splitter that does not change the tone at all?

[apadua]

I just picked up a voodoo labs amp selector.. Just got in 2 days ago so didn't get a chance to mess with it yet..... It gets lots of love around here.. surprised it has not been mentioned yet. They are around $225

here is a link.

Voodoo Lab - Amp Selector

[matskull]

Originally Posted by apadua

I just picked up a voodoo labs amp selector.. Just got in 2 days ago so didn't get a chance to mess with it yet..... It gets lots of love around here.. surprised it has not been mentioned yet. They are around $225

here is a link.

Voodoo Lab - Amp Selector

It looks like a good option.

[markchatwin]

Yeh Steve - I'm beginning to think that there is no splitter that doesn't color the sound in some way. Jonathan at Little labs basically said that you must learn to like the new tone that is created by these devices as well as the new world that these devices open up with splitting, reamping, DIing, etc.. In fact when you read the companies descriptions of their splitter devices you won't find words like, "Recreates the original tone of your guitar plugged straight into your amp". You won't find, "totally uncolored" in their descriptions.

When you speak with the top dogs like:
Vrtacic
Radial
J at Little Labs
Bob Bradshaw

they all say that you "MUST" use high end transformers. But Lucas Deceiver and Creation's Audio MW1 reps have said their products, because of their designs, don't need any. The MW1 is not sold as a splitter anyways. It can be used as a splitter but it is designed as a studio tool for guitar players and engineers to track, reamp and be able to tweek tones along the way. Terry at Compass Point Studios, who invented the Deceiver, couldn't really tell me technically how the Lucas Deceiver split the signal but he did say that transformers weren't used. Burkhard Lehle said you need a second device, such as his Sunday Driver, to correct the tonal change that his P-Split causes.

I'm still going to try and find one that does the job to my ear's satisfaction...

[guittarzzan]

Originally Posted by markchatwin

Yeh Steve - I'm beginning to think that there is no splitter that doesn't color the sound in some way. Jonathan at Little labs basically said that you must learn to like the new tone that is created by these devices as well as the new world that these devices open up with splitting, reamping, DIing, etc.. In fact when you read the companies descriptions of their splitter devices you won't find words like, "Recreates the original tone of your guitar plugged straight into your amp". You won't find, "totally uncolored" in their descriptions.

When you speak with the top dogs like:
Vrtacic
Radial
J at Little Labs
Bob Bradshaw

they all say that you "MUST" use high end transformers. But Lucas Deceiver and Creation's Audio MW1 reps have said their products, because of their designs, don't need any. The MW1 is not sold as a splitter anyways. It can be used as a splitter but it is designed as a studio tool for guitar players and engineers to track, reamp and be able to tweek tones along the way. Terry at Compass Point Studios, who invented the Deceiver, couldn't really tell me technically how the Lucas Deceiver split the signal but he did say that transformers weren't used. Burkhard Lehle said you need a second device, such as his Sunday Driver, to correct the tonal change that his P-Split causes.

I'm still going to try and find one that does the job to my ear's satisfaction...

I'm no pro, but I think the coolest thing abou the MW1 is that it has enough versatility that you should be able to dial in YOUR amp tone. Whatever change or color you feel has occurred from running the signal through it should be able to be reversed by the impedence and clean boost knobs. Personally, I think it's made my amps sound better than they did.

[Bassmec]

Well over here in good old third world UK we have one in and three out high impedance transformers:
SOWTER AUDIO TRANSFORMERS
they where good enough for fussy old aunty BBC so they are certainly good enough for
those that own a soldering iron and don't mind building a project box.
About $50.

[markchatwin]

Yes I hear you Guittarzzan but can the MW1 provide that "dialed" in original tone to it's 5 outputs without buzzes and hums? As I understand it transformers are the only way to completely isolate the signal. Try hooking in your guitar to the MW1 in a normal room, not one perfectly engineered with isolated, filtered, and voltage regulated circuits, into 3 amplifiers built in the 80's with old electronics and a 4th feed into a tube direct box into your DAW and convince me that you have perfect hum free split signals each that sound exactly like the sound of your guitar plugged direct into your amp via a good quality 1/4 inch cable.

When you say it improves your tone then the MW1 is a no brainer. Let me know if it improves it into 3 or 4 splits.

[901]

Originally Posted by markchatwin

Burkhard Lehle said you need a second device, such as his Sunday Driver, to correct the tonal change that his P-Split causes.

"To correct" might be a misleading term here. He recommended to use the Sunday Driver to reduce the effects of the loads you put on the output of the P-Split.

If you use a passive splitter, it means that the electrical current generated by the (presumably also passive) guitar pickups has to drive two inputs instead of just one. Depending on what you connect to one output of the splitter, that could affect both outputs actually. The electrical current goes wherever it finds the least resistance. And this might also be non-linear with the frequency arrange.

If you help it with pumping more current through it (with a neutral current amplifier like the mentioned Sunday Driver), the effects should be far less.

I have made some tests with the P-Split, a Radial transformer and a cheap splitter box. For me result was: All of them have their effects on the sound. The cheap splitter was absolutely awful and not usable. The Radial and P-Split changed the sound subtly and which one to take is a matter of taste.
I used the recorded DI signal for reamping then and my conclusion was, that only 5mm of change in the position of the microphone has a much more dramatic influence on the guitar sound than whatever a high quality transfomer would do.
For me I decided to neglect what the splitter does if I decide to go the DI/reamp route.

And yes, you can of course buy just a good transfomer with the right specs from Jensen, Sowter, Lundahl, etc and have the same as what is sold in a shiny box as a "guitar splitter".

If you want the best possible guitar sound then dial in your amp to the sound you want, patch in a good quality cable and play and stay with that.

[markchatwin]

What 901 - give up on my search for an uncolored guitar splitter? You're right "correct" is misleading. It implies something was wrong with his splitter. But using the Sunday driver to "reduce the effect of the load" implies that you're not happy with something that his splitter did. You definitely seem protective of Burkhard but the bottom line is his P-Split doesn't cut it as a splitter for players seeking the "original" tone. Maybe with his Sunday Driver you can come close. I just don't want 2 devices. Perhaps Burkhard can invent a device that has load correction in it and then I only have to buy one device.

I'm not standing up for anyones splitter - I'm just trying to find one that does the job. I am coming to the point that I agree with you to just plug into one amp and go. It's the best most original sound... But I have recently been playing with the LL STD and I love the sound coming out of 2 amps. Unfortunately the tone is a little brighter and I have some ground issues (a little buzz). I'd like to send a feed to a DI box too. I don't know what device can isolate these signals yet reproduce as close to original tone as possible but I'm going to keep on hunting...

[theom]

Have you tried a 1/4" Y cable and safe but creative ground lifting?
Just curious.

We bought an STD for a long guitar run. Upstairs control room 150 ft. to downstairs iso room via xlr snake.
bogner and ac30 via std box outputs.
Perfect solution for me.
Didn't notice a significant loss of tone at all.
Vastly better than 150' of 1/4" cable.

Terry's box is on my list. a BIG bit more versatile.
But, I needed something in a hurry, and cheap as a solution for a long run.

Originally Posted by markchatwin

I have posted before about wanting a high end guitar splitter. Trouble is the best ones are $800 - $2000 (Creation Audio MW1, Lucas Deceiver, Little Labs PCP, Custom Audio's Amp Selectors, Vrtacic Design, etc.). I plan on getting one when the finances rebound after tax season.

I have tried the Lehle P-Split but noticed high end loss. Burkhard Lehle explained that another of his products, Sunday Driver, combined with the P-Slit would remedy the situation. But I'd like one unit to do the job and idealistically I'd like it to be a useful item in the studio after I get one of the more expensive units in paragraph one.

One item that comes to mind is the Little Labs STD. It is meant to allow a long cable run in the studio but it does split the guitar in the box. This could be used down the road if I have a guitar player who plays in the control room with his amp in my live room. I have read a review that says this box adds a "hifi" effect to the tone. What that effect is I don't know but it sure sounds like this would be a "colored" splitter?

So how about a Smart Research unit that does what the STD does but is a bit more expensive?

The there's the Radial Tonebone Switcher. The concept is cool. It has a load correction control and a boost function. But again I've read reviews that it works on some guitars better than others (Good for Strat, Bad for Les Paul). Plus if I got something like that the more expensive ones would put it into the gear cemetary.

I need a simple splitter that won't result in much tone loss and get me through until I get a bigger unit - Thanks!

[ROBB007]

Just a tought..... This has got to be Peter Janis from Vancouver ..... Nice to see you on the board bud...... You are the new Leo Fender of the Recording world .. . You've Come a long long way since Tarttines Pete.....