Need a simple but high end guitar splitter

[Fuzzhead]

Originally Posted by markchatwin

the bottom line is his P-Split doesn't cut it as a splitter for players seeking the "original" tone

I'm doing pretty much the same thing here Mark...recording a direct signal and a miced signal together, then reamping the direct signal using different mics, cabs and heads.

If you are going to use 2 x 20ft cables, there's only 2 outcomes:

1. Live with the capacitance effect of 2 long instrument cables (loss of tone...yuk! Although some old blues guys dig it, Albert Collins for one.)

2. Put a buffered device in the middle...which will also change the tone slightly.

I have a P-Split II ordered , from what I've read (a lot!) it reproduces exactly the original signal to both outputs unbuffered...so any change in tone from that point is the result of extra cable capacitance. Obviously I've yet to test it properly.

It seems if you want an unbuffered split, go with the Lehle, I think it's the only transparent one...and for a buffered split, there's Little Labs and Radial. BUT, you can always add a buffered pedal to the Lehle, there's no way to 'unbuffer' a signal. A lot of people don't like that buffered sound, so I think Lehle went the right route here in leaving that choice open. I guess he could make a more expensive one with buffered outputs also, or both...

Depends what your priority is, since I'm reamping I want to get the signal in direct as uncoloured as possible.


Anyhow, here's my solution...I'll be leaving the P-Split next to the preamp with a short Mogami patch lead, and running as short a cable as I can to the amp...I'll add a buffered pedal to that if I need to.

GTRS -> P SPLIT (output #1)-> (short patch lead) -> MILLENNIA STT-1 PREAMP #1 (D.I. INPUT)

-------> P SPLIT (output #2)-> (possibly a buffered pedal, as short a cable as possible) -> DIEZEL HERBERT MKII ->RECTO OR VINTAGE MARSHALL CABS -> MIC -> MILLENNIA STT-1 PREAMP #2 (MIC INPUT)

I use a cheap radial ProRMP to reamp, it's great! Once you set the control to match directly plugging in, it works perfectly. No wallwarts to worry about either, so I can run a long cable to the amp, or run a balanced line to the ProRMP on top of the head, with a short patch lead.

Also with cables, I got a couple of Evidence Audio cables for recording when I bought the Diezel some years back, but I can't say I can hear any difference from my Mogami stage lead, which is a much nicer cable to use. I haven't tried Monsters, but I thought their rep was a bit suss now? Anyhow, might be worth making up some nice Mogami leads with neutrik plugs to fit your room size, to cut down on the capacitance somewhat...I find a 12ft is perfect for around the desk, if you could cut it down to close to 20 ft total (both leads) unbuffered you shouldn't have any tone loss from a single 20ft.

My 2c anyhoot.

[awelti]

Originally Posted by Stevedresser83

so there is no splitter that does not change the tone at all?

I know I am probably a day late and a dollar short, but I don't get out much to look at these forums...

The guitar going directly to the amp - the guitar feels the load of the cable and amp impedance - the amp senses the output impedance of the guitar... That combination of impedances creates a particular sound.

As soon as you try to split the signal the impedance math changes - a simple Y cable into two or more amps and the loading of each additional amp changes the shape of the tone going to all amps (not to mention ground connecting issues)

Transformers solve ground issues but amp and guitar impedances are reflected back and forth across the windings; and the impedance of the transformer itself is fixed, not variable, so chances are it won't exactly mimick the impedance of the original direct connection. And then there's the sound of the transformer itself - which can be a good thing, but not if you just want to record the original direct tone.

The MW1 with variable input and output impedance is a great way to solve this issue...

Here's the idea: vary the input impedance on the MW1 until it mimicks the amp's input impedance - then the guitar will think it's still connected to the amp; vary the output impedance on the MW1 until it mimicks the guitar's output impedance - then the amp thinks it's still connected to a guitar... at this point the tone is as close as you can get to a direct connection, meanwhile inside the MW1 between the input and output you can tap into the signal and send it to other places without affecting the relationship between the guitar and the amp...

What happens next is that you begin playing and experimenting with the impedances and you find that sometimes, deliberatly mis-matching the impedance opens up a whole new world of tone shaping without adding filters and EQs to the path.

It's possible to split the signal into four amps with the MW1 by looping the XLR out to the XLR in... you could make it six by using the tuner outputs, but they don't have the variable output impedances, and you'll probably have to play around with lifting grounds when you have multiple amps....

hope this helps...

[TheBlackDog]

Originally Posted by markchatwin

Yeh Steve - I'm beginning to think that there is no splitter that doesn't color the sound in some way. Jonathan at Little labs basically said that you must learn to like the new tone that is created by these devices as well as the new world that these devices open up with splitting, reamping, DIing, etc.. In fact when you read the companies descriptions of their splitter devices you won't find words like, "Recreates the original tone of your guitar plugged straight into your amp". You won't find, "totally uncolored" in their descriptions.

When you speak with the top dogs like:
Vrtacic
Radial
J at Little Labs
Bob Bradshaw

they all say that you "MUST" use high end transformers. But Lucas Deceiver and Creation's Audio MW1 reps have said their products, because of their designs, don't need any. The MW1 is not sold as a splitter anyways. It can be used as a splitter but it is designed as a studio tool for guitar players and engineers to track, reamp and be able to tweek tones along the way. Terry at Compass Point Studios, who invented the Deceiver, couldn't really tell me technically how the Lucas Deceiver split the signal but he did say that transformers weren't used. Burkhard Lehle said you need a second device, such as his Sunday Driver, to correct the tonal change that his P-Split causes.

I'm still going to try and find one that does the job to my ear's satisfaction...

If you can find a Roger Mayer crossroads these are great at retaining the guitars tone ,infact they seem to stabilize the guitar signal ,The STD is great but is a hair bright...cool ,very usable and shoudnt prevent geting a great guitar sound ...But the Roger box is defo worth a look..£250 ish

TheDog

[awelti]

Originally Posted by markchatwin

... When you speak with the top dogs like:
Vrtacic
Radial
J at Little Labs
Bob Bradshaw

they all say that you "MUST" use high end transformers. ... I'm still going to try and find one that does the job to my ear's satisfaction...

I can see this being the case only when two or more amps have problems with hum if the grounds interact and don't want to play nice... That does happen a lot more with guitar amps than with pro audio gear in my experience; but I have often been able to split to 3 or 4 amps with the MW1 and not had to go through transformers if every amp is properly grounded. Occassionally there was a need to lift a shield, use a ground lifter or insert a transformer to just one of the amps... Transformers are the ultimate band-aid cure for ground issues, but I try to save them for when all else fails...

If you do get to try an MW1 - let me know if that works, and if not, what you think would help...

Thanks,
Skip

[blackcom]

The spilt boxes from Radial is VERY good. I have the JD-7 myself. I know they have a cheaper stomp-box version with less outputs too.

I CANNOT hear a difference from an original to a splitted signal.

[skylabfilmpop]

Diviede by 13 Switchazel. Fred will configure these to your order and he makes an incredibly natural buffer

Divided by 13