Forssell SMP-2 vs Gordon Model 5

[GYang]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Here is a small sample of a children choir I recorded last year, using SMP-2 preamps (with Schoeps MK-2 and MK-21 mics). That time I still did not have the Forssell MADC-2 converters, which are sonically yet step up from the DAD AX-24 which I used at that time, so the result might have sounded yet better overall ... We also brought Millennia HV-3 at the venue to make an interesting quick comparison. As already Mr. Adebar mentioned in the other thread, there was a clear difference: HV-3 sounded nice, but comparing to SMP-2 somehow lacked the depth and ("ethereal") smoothness and added some slightly thin, edgy factor to the sound, the SMP-2 result sounded more full and incredibly "real", without any artifacts and "processed" feeling ...

AGNUS DEI

(just a "naked" recording with the natural reverb of the church)

Good job Ivo, as always

[GYang]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

OK - I've spent the past few months watching other threads, sending PMs and just trying to find an opinion from ANYONE who has heard both of these no doubt fine units as I want to buy or the other.

No chance.
Who heard Gordon first or bought it, typically never looked back or need to comapre it to anything 'better'.
Same for Forssell.

Rare case when ultimate satisfaction is instant result of using particular gear.

[pianokeys]

I respectfully disagree that there is "No Chance" - the whole purpose of comparing gear is for small differences or issues of personal taste, or usefullness in a given acoustic situation - even between two units of obvious quality and high satisfaction amoung users.

However, I am a musician first and foremost, and as such I completely agree that ultimate satisfaction comes from not from which pre-amp one uses, but from passionate, honest, and skilled performances from gifted musicians playing good music - simple - that is where satisfaction, or the ultimate pursuit of it is found.

[ISedlacek]

I think in this level of quality, it is finally music that really matters ... Anywyay, there were already some quite elaborate and interesting comments in the other thread about Gordon/Forssell differences ... Just wondering, what more Mr. Pianokeys still expects (apart from trying himself, which of course is the only reasonable thing )

[pianokeys]

Ivo - true indeed - at this point I may just splurge on the Forssell and hear it myself, likely love it, and never wonder about the Gordon - I guess just the depth of the tone described in the Gordon still intruiges - I was also hoping perhaps the other A/B will occur at the end of the month - perhaps revealing more or different opinions that I could use to help.

Also, respectfully, the approx $500-700 it would cost in shipping / customs fees / dollar conversion fees and return shipping of one pre-amp is a bit steep just to "know for sure".

[mwurfl]

The other GS member with the SMP-2 and myself are planning to meet on the 28th of this month. If all the plans he and I have discussed come to pass, we might then have some results a day or two after that.

Mark

[Audiop]

Not my intention to steel the thread or draw it to mcuh OT but..

isn't anyone interested in what I wrote in my earlier post?

If Ivo can make such a beatuful recording with this gear it's obviously good gear that is being used.

If I can loop this beatiful sounding piece recorded by Ivo via a DA converter, a mic preamp and an AD without audible alteration, wouldn't that indicate a level of performance worth to take seriously?

If someone is interested I'll try to find some place to upload the file if that would be ok with Ivo.


/Peter

[futur2]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Not my intention to steel the thread or draw it to mcuh OT but..

isn't anyone interested in what I wrote in my earlier post?

If Ivo can make such a beatuful recording with this gear it's obviously good gear that is being used.

If I can loop this beatiful sounding piece recorded by Ivo via a DA converter, a mic preamp and an AD without audible alteration, wouldn't that indicate a level of performance worth to take seriously?

If someone is interested I'll try to find some place to upload the file if that would be ok with Ivo.


/Peter

i'd be very interested to hear this! would be even more interesting if there was another one or two pres looped back for reference. something colored like an api or neve would be nice and also some other clean pre like dav, forsell or gordon. i like the idea of forsell looped back through itself

[pianokeys]

Thanks - I do hope the A/B goes through on or around the 28th - please do report back!!

[pianokeys]

Is that shootout still on? I heard from somone else from your area that it will be in a month maybe more...

Anyway plan is to call Gordon tomorrow - I've had a nice chat with Fred Forssell..

[GYang]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Is that shootout still on? I heard from somone else from your area that it will be in a month maybe more...

Anyway plan is to call Gordon tomorrow - I've had a nice chat with Fred Forssell..

Finally, you'll buy both

[mwurfl]

Yes, I had remembered the dates & plans that were discussed wrong; we're tentatively planning on being able to do the comparison around the middle of March. Sorry for the premature announcement (see I knew I shouldn't have said anything).

Rest assured that I am as eager to do this as you are to hear about it.

MW

[pianokeys]

Thanks - at this point i have been offered a good price on a prototype smp-2, and it is time to give er a go - wish i could have compared - even mixed in the npng - but time is ticking and the price is pretty good - far cheaper than a new gordon so we shall see.

I'd still LOVE to hear some samples - there are always trades - new purchases etc...

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

You should really try.
You say its hard to get a test, you got to buy both and send one back, ok, but what if you buy one caused by an internet meaning and find out years later that this opinion or test was wrong for your taste.
Ask for demo units, i´m sure this is possible. I know it should work with the gear Fred Forsell builds. I bought one and i could have sent it back within 2 weeks, getting the money back.
Well, I kept the SMP-2, it´s great.

So why are you selling it?
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...-2-preamp.html

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

So why are you selling it?
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...-2-preamp.html

I´m going from ITB to OTB. I need 48 channles ADDA and am building a custom mixing desk at the moment. It´s just a question of money. I am selling STC-8, Voxbox, UA2192, some guitars and amps, too.

[pianokeys]

OK - I've just tried the SMP-2 (Forssell) on acoustic guitar, a lovely Gibson, and it was heavenly. Up against Avalon 2022, LaChapell, and Pacifica it was the clear winner to me, the guitar player, and the client. (Later the LaChapell won a shootout on electric, we'll try vocals later but I'm hard pressed to believe the Pacifica / Wunder CM7/gt won't win - also the Avalon recently won a DI shootout)

In other words I have 4 colours now I love and couldn't be happier.

Did the mythical Forssell / Gordon shootout ever take place?

I'll post the acoustic samples later likely in a new thread if anyone is interested.

[ISedlacek]

Not much surprising ... If a real, highly musical transparency (like an open big window) is required, I have not tried any other preamp that would come close to SMP-2 rendering ... Comparing to it, for example LaChapell sounds slightly "wooly" with less depth and details ... (that can be suitable for guitar combo for example). For (flattering) vocals, SMP-2 is not my prime choice, however ... unless the voice itself is already quite flattering )
I usually use Thermionic Earlybird for vocals .. In case of any acoustic instrument, I always give a try to the Earlybird. Sounds very nice, indeed ...But when I try the same with SMP-2 and compare, the Earlybird's tubes life span is being substantially increased by switching it off instantly

Yes- posting the samples could be nice

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Did the mythical Forssell / Gordon shootout ever take place?

I don't know if you are referring to the recent recording Mark Wurfl and I recently made with his Gordon and my Forssell. We captured a live concert few weeks ago in a reasonably controlled way.

One of us will soon post high resolution clips on a fellow Gearslutz (Thomas Bishop) website with links here. We're presently working out those details.

[pianokeys]

Well I do love my 992 EG with 6072 tubes - a lovely musical open sound - plenty of bass - my favourite overall pre-amp - the Forssell is new to me and may take this crown at some point but for now LaChapell all the way. It also remains important to me now owning the smp-2 by Forssell to also have an amp like the 992 EG - for a more significantly different tone.

You see, I don't want my LaChapell to compete with the Forssell - I want it to give a warm hug when needed while still being musical and reasonably detailed. which it is)


Re Gordon vs Forssell - can't wait to hear those samples and your thoughts - many thanks!!

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

Well I do love my 992 EG with 6072 tubes - a lovely musical open sound - plenty of bass - my favourite overall pre-amp - the Forssell is new to me and may take this crown at some point but for now LaChapell all the way. It also remains important to me now owning the smp-2 by Forssell to also have an amp like the 992 EG - for a more significantly different tone.

You see, I don't want my LaChapell to compete with the Forssell - I want it to give a warm hug when needed while still being musical and reasonably detailed. which it is)


Re Gordon vs Forssell - can't wait to hear those samples and your thoughts - many thanks!!

I appreciate how you describe the 992EG as a compliment to your Forssell. It's like two world-class microphones, one ribbon and one condenser. Each type brings something a little different to the table. An SMP-2 doesn't have two knobs tied to an adjustable gain structure that can warm and fatten sounds to taste. By comparison an SMP-2 is a one trick pony that does clean probably better than a tube/xfmr design possibly could.

People who record dense classical ensembles with two microphones know how important it is to extract an extreme amount of detail in the first three devices (mics, pres, ADC). Tracking instruments individually doesn't burden a preamp the same way, and a fast solid state design is just better at it.

Congrats. It's great you can have both!

[Fishmed]

Since we are on the topic of clean mic pres (Gordon & Forssell), where does the Audio Upgrades High Speed Mic Preamp fall within this category?

[AB3]

This is true. It is one trick, but a needed trick in the arsenal as you say. Now can the trick be altered? Yes - by mic selection, compressor, etc. But there is probably a limitation to the Lachappel and many other "color" pres as well. Once you use them, you can never go back to the sound of the Forssell. They are irreversible. Whereas, with the Forssell, color possibilities still exist.

But having both, is ideal as you said unless you only want the sound of one or the other.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

By comparison an SMP-2 it is a one trick pony that does clean probably better than a tube/xfmr design possibly could.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Fishmed

Since we are on the topic of clean mic pres (Gordon & Forssell), where does the Audio Upgrades High Speed Mic Preamp fall within this category?

I haven't heard it but the design would indicate it is more like Forssell than LaChapell.

[pianokeys]

Michael Patrick - clearly we have similar ears and tastes - glad to talk to another LaChapell fan - Scott's excellent products do deserve our admittedly biased plugs!! (once you own them you tend to brag about them )

Recording acoustic instruemtns that are already beautiful - being played by gifted musicians - now that's where thus far I haven't heard an equal to the Forssell.

I'm going to post an acoustic guitar shoot-out tonight on another thread and link it from here. It shows the unique beauty of many pre-amps in my opinion - no wonder people argue so much about pres - good ones sound good - it them just boils down to use, style, mics, taste, context etc

[pianokeys]

I've posted the samples of the pre-amp shootout including Forssell at:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...ml#post4024456

(I'd still love to hear the Forssell vs Gordon samples from the other member)

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by pianokeys

(I'd still love to hear the Forssell vs Gordon samples from the other member)

Me too ... But since I learnt they will be only mono, my expectations decreased a bit ..

[pianokeys]

OK - the preamp shootout including Forssell was moved to here:

Pre-amp shootout - LaChapell vs Avalon vs Pacifica vs Forssell - samples included

[didier.brest]

I just listened on the last clip. Wonderful mono! What a depth!
Forsell or Gordon ??? They are so good an so close both... Listening to a difference requires so much concentration. Can't say for the moment. Is the Gordon a bit more dynamic ???
By the way, the Josephson C617 is a great mic!

Thank you very much for sharing this.

[ISedlacek]

Great, admirable (and very scientific) effort. I listened to almost all of that. But still (as we already discussed privately) I quite regret that within this unique opportunity to compare these two preamps, these are just mono files (that means extremely limited in their capturing and revealing nature - a kind of "handicapped"). I would much prefer something seemingly "less scientific" (i.e. repeated performance) but more revealing and realistic ... i.e. stereo.

In my opinion - similarly as we have two ears, only stereo recording of a complex source gives a realistic sound picture. These preamps are naturally also stereo. And the interaction between the channels, creating a soundstage and the complete sound structure is one of the major factors that shows the quality and unique sound characteristics of a preamp - and that is naturally not present if just one channel is used ... without that we do not see (or hear) what a particular preamp is really able to do.

No wonder that a sound difference heard between these mono files is just very negligible and difficult to distinguish (and would probably be similar even in case of using other preamps). The real difference would IMO come only when using these preamps in their full potential = stereo - like capturing a full piano, guitar, choir or orchestra performance and switching the preamps ...

Thanks a lot, anyway ... still, even after listening all this, I don't have some clear idea about sound differences between these two preamps ... No secret stereo recordings left ? )

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

No secret stereo recordings left ? )

No. There are no secret stereo recordings. Making a stereo capture would require four matched microphones and tremendous effort to keep all the variables under control. Maybe next year.

These samples are not as limited as you say. Don't forget that all the seeds of stereo lay inside two mono channels. Hearing significant differences may take more effort only because this gear is from some of the world's best; both designers want to capture all the detail they can from a performance without damaging musical qualities in any way.

If given careful attention on high quality playback equipment these clips will reveal differences. I look forward to seeing what opinions come forth after people have had enough time to listen deeply.