Analog Summing Overrated? Your opinions

[edIT]

I'm a Folcrom user myself. Want to get some opinions from other Folcrom, D2B, SPL, API, summer owners etc.....

[edIT]

bump

[AAsa]

I have a D2B Lt in my PT setup. When I feed it...I feed it with a 192 and an AD8kSE.
For most of my work I don't use the D2B, for two reasons.

1. Speed, when a project starts I'm setup to monitor off outputs 1-2. Then from there the mix gets built and all the rest. At "mix" time, depending on the client, I generally don't have the luxury to start over.

If over the course of the project we've got 40+ tracks going, then I'll take the time to stem out the tracks, but only for peace of mind.

2. The sonic boost using the d2b is minimal. When I first used it I noticed a bit wider stereo field, but not a night and day difference.

I'm thinking of trying the SPL box or the Chandler mixer 'cause I am looking for a PT mixbus alternative. I need to find something that will make it worth the effort to use.
When I find it, I'll use it.

[Sharp11]

As a recent convert to ITB, I'm getting the best sounding mixes I've ever done; faster and more efficiently as well.

API, Summit and Apogee in, the rest is done in PT HD, I couldn't be happier.

Ed

[Ruphus]

Having no comparison myself, I used to gather that outboard mixing, especially through a mixer was rather a creative benefit than sonically.

However, no matter how I tried with being very catious at levels and mainly working substractive still the final mix 2track had that subtle ringing / distortion. Then I read detailed text about sampling and summing and am now at remixing stuff according to it, trying to effect per outboard whenever possible with my limited rig and going for as little number of tracks in the box as doable.

Am not yet finished with the first mix, but have the feeling already that it will be sounding better. Smoother, so I hope.

Ruphus

[Ribbonmicguy]

Originally Posted by AAsa

I have a D2B Lt in my PT setup. When I feed it...I feed it with a 192 and an AD8kSE.
For most of my work I don't use the D2B, for two reasons.

1. Speed, when a project starts I'm setup to monitor off outputs 1-2. Then from there the mix gets built and all the rest. At "mix" time, depending on the client, I generally don't have the luxury to start over.

AAsa,

I'm using Tubetech SSA2A, and it took me 2 minutes to stem the output from PT to the summing box.

Here's what I do.
Open up 4 mono master, 8 stereo master (Tubetech has 20 input total) in PT
From PT output, it is wired straight to my patchbay, half-normalled output to Tubetech, so I never need to wire it again.

If I decide to mix itb, I use the Digital 1-2 out just for monitoring.

Patchbay is really the way to go if u're gonna do lots of otb summing.

thumbsup

[u b k]

i just cannot achieve the same things itb as i can otb. could totally be me, don't know, don't care. the nicerizer just makes everything better (and easier), and i can't argue with that.


gregoire
del ubik

[AAsa]

Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy

AAsa,

I'm using Tubetech SSA2A
thumbsup

Did you have the chance to compare it to anything else?

That's one of the boxes I'd like to try.

A

[Riad]

My D2B was definitely worth it. Much bigger more spacial sound, but it's a tool and I don't think any one piece of gear is going to make that much difference.

Rob

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

i have to say that i try and give my mixes lots of space. i like things to sound BIG and have lots of depth in the soundfield.
i can do it with the D2B, but my mixes collapse when i try and do it ITB.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy

From PT output, it is wired straight to my patchbay, half-normalled output to Tubetech, so I never need to wire it again.
Patchbay is really the way to go if u're gonna do lots of otb summing.

thumbsup

I was intending to patch constantly halfnormall over a Neutrik patchbay days ago. To make sure first I merged two tracks with it and recorded it back into the DAW, then compared the new track to the original two tracks, after having matched the levels.

Really wished it to sound equally, bit it didn´t. The halfnormalled track sounded dull and obviously degraded in comparison to the originals.

Dunno what it is. Someone told me it to be for the sort of wiring inside the patchbay.

Ruphus

[Riad]

Originally Posted by Ruphus

I was intending to patch constantly halfnormall over a Neutrik patchbay days ago. To make sure I merged two tracks with it and recorded it back into the DAW, then compared the new track to the original two tracks, after having matched the levels.

Really wished it to sound equally, bit it didn´t. The halfnormalled track sounded dull and obviously degraded in comparison to the originals.

Someone told me it to be for the sort of wiring inside the patchbay, dunno what it is.

Ruphus

I have my D2B wired into my Neutrik patchbay. I have only 16 outs via the Apogee DA16-X. I need to have 6 outs for my headphone distribution... can't think of any other way around using a patch bay unless i continually disconnect the 9-16 db25 out on the back of the DA16-X when tracking.

[patchboy]

My first experience splittiing out a mix to a console was about 4 years ago. I was working on a fairly complex project in my studio (read:ITB) and tracks were accumulating fast. We were also mixing as we went. It came time to do strings at a room with a big Neve, and we booked an extra day to split the mixes out across the console, to make finished sounding roughs to present to the label. After patching all of the outputs, etc, I hit play and realized that what we had in the box was not a mix. All of the instruments sounded bigger and deeper, and the image was better, but the mix sucked. I realized we had been fooled by the smear ITB, and less than perfect acoustics in my room at home. We ditched the idea, as we didn't have a month to do rough mixes. Since then, I have been wary of assuming a mix "just needs to be split out and tweaked" if we have been mixing as we go. I love splitting mixes into a console, but I am prepared for them to fall apart. So if I can, I feed a console from day one, or factor in time for a full start-from-scratch mix at the end (like the good old days).

And I honestly don't worry too much about it if the track count is low.

[Shaman]

I may repeat myself:

I love mixing through my spl mixdream.

It´s like driving a silver Porsche Carrera Cabrio through Italy in Summer (without the tempo limit... )

[Phil Buckle]

I sat on the fence for a long time on this subject.
Well hearing is believing and after finally trying a SPL MixDream I am utterly convinced. It turns out that this was the silver bullet for me. It has been the missing link for so long. Never will I mix ITB again.
Big, wide, clean and fat and I can hear everything.
The difference is not subtle.
Shaman's Porsche analogy is in a strange and wonderfully European way quite accurate................although we should both shut up now and actively promote apathy on this subject.

[TheSweetener]

What do you guys think? Is it already interesting to sum 8 channels OTB or or does the difference only become audible at with more channels being summed analog?

Thanks!

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by Phil Buckle

...
Shaman's Porsche analogy is in a strange and wonderfully European way quite accurate................although we should both shut up now and actively promote apathy on this subject.

Of course I´m only drivin´a green Volkswagen Polo through Italy but it´s fun too (spent too much on gear...)

[Ribbonmicguy]

Originally Posted by AAsa

Did you have the chance to compare it to anything else?

That's one of the boxes I'd like to try.

A

AA,

I didn't get a chance to compare, at where I live, every gear that I buy needs an indent.

Shaman has put together a review of most summing box he tested before commiting to SPL Mixdream (which I nearly bought)


Ruphus:

I didn't get any signal degradation from using my ADC TT Bantam patchbay. I used to have the neutrik trs patchbay. The adc is different.

[Phil Buckle]

Originally Posted by TheSweetener

What do you guys think? Is it already interesting to sum 8 channels OTB or or does the difference only become audible at with more channels being summed analog?

Thanks!

There are a couple of things to think about.
If you have 8 channels then you are going to lose 2 because you have to come back into PTools via your interface.....unless you are mixing to 2 track machine of some description. So you are really down to 6 channels.
Well I did notice the difference straight away with 6 tracks.....you only have to assign the kick, snare, bass, vocal and everything else in 5+6 and you will hear a difference.
But then you will want more.
The first thing I did was suss out an outboard 2 track. I tossed up between the Masterlink and the Tascam DV-RA1000. I went with the latter. So that gave me 2 channels back. No need to go back into PT.
But that is a whole different way of working.
So then I needed to make full use of the 16 channels in the MixDream so I got a Digi 96 I/O to add to the 192.
So it's an expensive move.
Now I'm well aware of the phenomenon of praising the gear that you have purchased.
Somehow justifying a personal decision. The thing is that I had the MixDream on loan so I could have easily taken in back. But I couldn't take it back.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy

AA,

I didn't get a chance to compare, at where I live, every gear that I buy needs an indent.

Shaman has put together a review of most summing box he tested before commiting to SPL Mixdream (which I nearly bought)


Ruphus:

I didn't get any signal degradation from using my ADC TT Bantam patchbay. I used to have the neutrik trs patchbay. The adc is different.

Hi Harmoko,

I suppose that´s what I´ve been told about difference in wiring existing.
I´m looking for something simple and small now to merge at least 2 pairs.

Would certainly like to try a real summing box with inserts, but I have been too spendy already and something like a Mixdream with an Apogee 16x would be impossible to finance for now, while yet not settled with mics at all.

Ruphus

[Revelation]

Everyone admits that automation and the work flow in a DAW is very nice. I never argued that analog is better or that digital is better. My feeling is the two together is the way to go. There are some great analog gear that digital cannot tocuh. So use the analog EQ, Compressor, and other toys along with summing in a box. That way you get the best of both worlds. However if you invested in a very nice analog console and it gets you the sound you want, stick with it. Im not talking about a Mackie board mind you , but some more higher end console.

[Riad]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I may repeat myself:

I love mixing through my spl mixdream.

It´s like driving a silver Porsche Carrera Cabrio through Italy in Summer (without the tempo limit... )

I HEAR YA....

[5down1up]

if its like driving a porsche in italy ... i stay ITB ...

THX to AL CAPONE

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Phil Buckle

There are a couple of things to think about.
If you have 8 channels then you are going to lose 2 because you have to come back into PTools via your interface.....unless you are mixing to 2 track machine of some description. So you are really down to 6 channels.

Why is that? Even though you are using 2 inputs to come back into Protools you still have 8 outputs available. A problem could arise however with monitoring. In the event that you want to monitor your mix after it comes back into PT, then that WILL cost you 2 outputs.

-R

[Shaman]

Some thoughts i have concerning ITB & OTB mixing:

Perhaps it´s possible to learn a way of mixing ITB, which achieves similar/same results like mixing with a summing box by special gain staging / plugin stacking etc. trickery.

I´m only not willing to spend massive time to learn that mix style if I can achieve great results with my Mixdream RIGHT NOW.

People like Charles Dye seem to have learned that special way of doing GOOD mixes ITB, which is cool for them but just not suited for others...

just my 2 cents

[parloursound]

We had been mixing on digital consoles for years and it sounded great then a couple of weeks ago we swaped for an analogue desk and WOW. The difference is night and day. Everything sounds so much better now.

[Bang]

I have an SPL Mixdream on loan right now. Can one of you tell me how to work the master mix inserts? Can you not use a standard Tascam db 25? If not then thats sucks!!

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

[krid]

Bang, how do you like the Mixdream for your rock / metal mixes ?

[TheSweetener]

Originally Posted by Phil Buckle

There are a couple of things to think about.
If you have 8 channels then you are going to lose 2 because you have to come back into PTools via your interface.....

Thanks for your answer. But why do I loose 2 channels ???
8 channels into the summing device is 8 channels eh?

[5down1up]

BECAUSE ...

if u have 8 outs -> summing in [8] -> summing out [2] -> pt in [2] -> " PT outs [2] " for monitoring makes ... ???


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