Make PT LE work like HD?!!

[pristineb]

Hello everyone. I am a Pro Tools HD user and have been for MANY years. The introduction of PT8 has me thinking that it's perhaps time to consider an LE rig... pay down some debt, enter the world of 32bit floating point processing, yada yada. I've been in an HD system for so long, I know little about how far an LE rig can go to achieving high end results.

I'm weighing the options. I am a professional mixer and I need certain things from an LE rig if I'm gonna move there. If I can't get what I need from an LE rig I'll just stay in HD land.

Here's some things I know about LE vs. HD. These are my issues...

- I have limited "import session data" - this is handy for my mixing. What can and can't I do?
- I don't get ADC (ATA makes this possible!!) - Sounds like a good option.
- limited track count (but it's 128 with the new LE... not bad).. I can probably deal with this... bounce a few things for MASSIVE sessions.
- Latency - how bad is it? Can a fast computer make it unnoticeable?

BIG QUESTION...

I want enough I/O to handle at least 8 channels from a summing mixer and at least another 8 channels of I/O for outboard EQ, Compression, FX. Is this possible with external converters... I'm unwilling to use the Digi converters. What's the max. # of I/O I can have with external converters????

So, give your opinions. Can I get a decent I/O going, is latency gonna kill me??

Anything else I should be considering??

Thanks in advance guys (and gals). I appreciate it!

[matta]

Hey Pristineb,

I run my commercial studio on LE, through geared primarily as a 'tracking' space, little to no mixing with it, but will give you my thoughts on your questions.

Originally Posted by pristineb

- I have limited "import session data" - this is handy for my mixing. What can and can't I do?

It CAN import ALL the settings you could select in HD, sadly it CAN'T NOT bring excluded session data, it brings in ALL the info, including audio tracks from a session. You can choose to NOT import tempo/key signature changes.

Originally Posted by pristineb

- I don't get ADC (ATA makes this possible!!) - Sounds like a good option.

Correct, though ATA is not as automatic as ADC, it requires a change in workflow, but once you have it down it will become part of your new workflow, but it does impede creativity somewhat as it isn't truly 'automatic'.

Originally Posted by pristineb

- limited track count (but it's 128 with the new LE... not bad).. I can probably deal with this... bounce a few things for MASSIVE sessions.

Firstly, you need to realize that that 128 track count option is almost $2000 ONTO of of your LE Dongle and software... PLUS if you use higher sampling rates, say 96kHz you will only get 96 MONO or 48 STEREO tracks, the equivalent of an HD-2 rig.

Even the MPTK option states 64 tracks, but will only allow 48 Tracks (MONO or STEREO) at 96kHz.

Originally Posted by pristineb

- Latency - how bad is it? Can a fast computer make it unnoticeable?

Um, what latency? Tracking? Mixing? I think for tracking it is almost unnoticeable, at 128 samples I think the math works out in the real world you hearing another band member from 3 feet away, for most stuff this is more than acceptable for me and the artists... the 002/003 have a 'low latency' mode that allows nominal latency, I think on par to HD, BUT it will bypass any sends/inserts on any record enabled track.

Originally Posted by pristineb

BIG QUESTION...

I want enough I/O to handle at least 8 channels from a summing mixer and at least another 8 channels of I/O for outboard EQ, Compression, FX. Is this possible with external converters... I'm unwilling to use the Digi converters. What's the max. # of I/O I can have with external converters????

Yes, on a 002/003 you can get up to 10 digital i/o's, 8 over ADAT (but as with all Digi devices it caps out at 48kHz) and 2 over SPDIF up to 96kHz.

If you got the M-Audio 'M-Powered' route you can get up to 18 i/o's over the Profire Lightbridge. It is SMUX compliant, so up to 96kHz... might be a better option for you at those sample rates.

Other things to consider... LE or M-Powered DOESN'T support TDM architecture so you are limited to to RTAS, but a BIG plus is that unlike TDM you won't use up extra voices if you insert RTAS after RTAS and your limitations will be how fast your DAW is... Native can provide AMAZING results in this respect.

With ATA you can use external cards like the UAD from Universal Audio to add additional plugins in lieu of not having TDM plugs, and many of these I prefer over TDM plugs.

Those are off the top of my head... personal experience has shown me that I do miss features of HD when I go from TDM to LE, but been with LE long enough to adopt different approach to working with it's limitations and it suits my needs.

That said if my client base demanded HD and it would pay for itself then I'd move to HD, currently it doesn't and while I could afford to make the jump, it would hinder me acquiring more outboard, mics, pres etc and those to me hold value better than an HD rig, so from a business stand point I feel it better for me fiscally and responsible (if one can be being in this game).

I hope that helps.

Cheers

Matt

[matskull]

I don't think you'll make any money by selling your hd rig and buy a LE instead.
(if that's what you wanna do...)

[KEYBEEETSSS]

I think Matt said it all...I also run a "SOMEWHAT_COMMERCIAL studio with LE & my rig has actually kept from having to go HD... I got it modded by BLA which made a great difference & I have good external converters.. 18i/o & my mixes are just as big as anyone in my city with HD3 rigs; & really being honest BIGGER because I get all the work from them...

As Matt said ATA is "the" solution pretty much to the "NO ADC" in LE... But even before that it was never a major problem for me as I mix mostly gospel records with track counts averaging 70(yes 70) tracks... So now with PT8 coming i won't have to do what i do normally which is take all the keys/organ tracks & turn the to stereo pairs, so if I have 12 mono tracks worth of keys then I turn that to 6 gaining another 6... I do the same for Vocal parts that are the same voices...most of the time i'd @ least have 25 mono tracks of vocals or more.. so that can go down to maybe 12-14 stereo tracks just depending... So i've gained another 10-12 tracks... I'm actually mixing a record right now I'm Producing on Vickie Winans that I also tracked & she cut @ my place on my LE rig...& i'm looking @ 87 tracks...Granted this is MIDI, INSTRUMENT & AUX tracks included but i'm running REASON4, PHILHARMONIK, NI ELEKTRIK PIANO, MOTU SYMPHONIC ORCH, EAST WEST STRINGS, COLOSSUS, 2 TL SPACE, IK CSR ROOM VERB, 4 SSL CHANNELS, 3 SSL COMP(1 on the master buss) 3 URS PLUGS, 5 MASSEY TAPEHEADS, 4 MASSEY EQ & 1 TAPEHEAD DELAY, 2 OXFORD LIMITER, 3 McDSP PLUGS, 3 T-RACKS CLIPPERS, 3 BOMB FACTORY 76, DRUMAGOG, 4 API EQ & 1 API COMP, 5 DEVERBS, 4 WAVES RBASS, 4 V-SERIES EQ(waves neve) along with MUCH automation of course being it's gospel from send volumes to mutes to pans, midi automation & just volumes on the vocals/music etc.

I said/wrote all that to say that I know for a fact, & believe me i've worked on many HD rigs as well, but I can do just as much with my LE; money is not a problem as to why I've never upgraded; i've not upgraded because going between the to, I've never sought a reason to when I do what I do well with LE especially now that they've done what they have with PT8; & I actually run my system on PC(custom built) with the 3gig switch so that allows me to open up as much as I need without any slowdowns or crashes & crashes are VERY minimal on my system... I think with what Matt pointed out & details i've giving it should help a little with ur decision... People are gonna say "LE is not for a commercial studio" but thatz a lie because I get all the Commercial studios business in my city & this is no exxagerration.. they may go there 1st, well they use to go there 1st but now all pretty much comes thru me when it comes to POP/R&B & gospel & even CCM artist now... hope this helps...

[pristineb]

Thanks for all the great comments so far!! Very nie to be getting educated opinions from guys who wanna help out. Thanks to all of you!

I think Matt said it all...I also run a "SOMEWHAT_COMMERCIAL studio with LE & my rig has actually kept from having to go HD... I got it modded by BLA which made a great difference & I have good external converters.. 18i/o & my mixes are just as big as anyone in my city with HD3 rigs; & really being honest BIGGER because I get all the work from them...

Tell me more about the mods! How much did you pay to have your LE rig modded? One thing I've gotta consider is how much the change would cost vs. how much I'm gonna be able to get for my HD rig. If I'm only gonna get $2k out of it I'd probably stay.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

I only have the Tweakhead mod so far as I can't get any downtime to send it back for the Sig mod... So I only paid 800 but the Sig is 1200 i believe... the sound on the tweakhead is incredible & the Sig mod is Kicking the Tweakhead azz... & believe me the Tweakhead is great ... If u hadn't already, go to Blacklion audio website to see what u would actually get... the preamps are even Nicse ... & I hav 6 Api pres(3124+ & a A2D), 2 Avalons-1 w/British Mullard tubes, Vintech 1272, LaChapell 992, LA-610 & a few more..Ppint is that I know good pres & the preamps in the mod are really nicse ...Sucks that there's no insert on them to stick an eq or comp on it but nevertheless ...So chk into it..I understand tho if ur looking @what u'd get for ur HD rig as to whether u'd make the switch...but really the mod would sound better than an HD2 rig & where I am an HD3...lol..I'll have 2put som samples up for the ppl that just dnt believe HD rigs can suck or be blown away by an LE rig...

[O'Ryan]

Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS

I think Matt said it all...I also run a "SOMEWHAT_COMMERCIAL studio with LE & my rig has actually kept from having to go HD... I got it modded by BLA which made a great difference & I have good external converters.. 18i/o & my mixes are just as big as anyone in my city with HD3 rigs; & really being honest BIGGER because I get all the work from them...

As Matt said ATA is "the" solution pretty much to the "NO ADC" in LE... But even before that it was never a major problem for me as I mix mostly gospel records with track counts averaging 70(yes 70) tracks... So now with PT8 coming i won't have to do what i do normally which is take all the keys/organ tracks & turn the to stereo pairs, so if I have 12 mono tracks worth of keys then I turn that to 6 gaining another 6... I do the same for Vocal parts that are the same voices...most of the time i'd @ least have 25 mono tracks of vocals or more.. so that can go down to maybe 12-14 stereo tracks just depending... So i've gained another 10-12 tracks... I'm actually mixing a record right now I'm Producing on Vickie Winans that I also tracked & she cut @ my place on my LE rig...& i'm looking @ 87 tracks...Granted this is MIDI, INSTRUMENT & AUX tracks included but i'm running REASON4, PHILHARMONIK, NI ELEKTRIK PIANO, MOTU SYMPHONIC ORCH, EAST WEST STRINGS, COLOSSUS, 2 TL SPACE, IK CSR ROOM VERB, 4 SSL CHANNELS, 3 SSL COMP(1 on the master buss) 3 URS PLUGS, 5 MASSEY TAPEHEADS, 4 MASSEY EQ & 1 TAPEHEAD DELAY, 2 OXFORD LIMITER, 3 McDSP PLUGS, 3 T-RACKS CLIPPERS, 3 BOMB FACTORY 76, DRUMAGOG, 4 API EQ & 1 API COMP, 5 DEVERBS, 4 WAVES RBASS, 4 V-SERIES EQ(waves neve) along with MUCH automation of course being it's gospel from send volumes to mutes to pans, midi automation & just volumes on the vocals/music etc.

I said/wrote all that to say that I know for a fact, & believe me i've worked on many HD rigs as well, but I can do just as much with my LE; money is not a problem as to why I've never upgraded; i've not upgraded because going between the to, I've never sought a reason to when I do what I do well with LE especially now that they've done what they have with PT8; & I actually run my system on PC(custom built) with the 3gig switch so that allows me to open up as much as I need without any slowdowns or crashes & crashes are VERY minimal on my system... I think with what Matt pointed out & details i've giving it should help a little with ur decision... People are gonna say "LE is not for a commercial studio" but thatz a lie because I get all the Commercial studios business in my city & this is no exxagerration.. they may go there 1st, well they use to go there 1st but now all pretty much comes thru me when it comes to POP/R&B & gospel & even CCM artist now... hope this helps...

Post some samples please, What kind of processor you running on that rig and your running all those plugins on only 3 gigs ???

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by O'Ryan

Post some samples please, What kind of processor you running on that rig and your running all those plugins on only 3 gigs ???

So this is it..its about 90 tracks in total & REMEMBER this is after me summing keys & vocal tracks to stereo, but i have instrument, midi & auxes of course to get up that far...& believe it or not this is only a core 2duo; I'm changing to a quad next week...Sorry my Jing was out of whack so I did it with my camera...here it is...YouTube - MAKE PTLE WORK LIKE HD

[guitardom]

keeybeets rig and specs are pretty normal. i have a quad core q6600, bla modded 002, firface 800 for converters. adl 600, api a2d, vintech x 73i, couple chameleon labs 7602's, distressor......outboard. the amount of plugs and samplers i can run in a session is ridiculous. we can run a LOT (about 2x's as many) more on le than hd users can do to a 3gb of ram access switch we can use in le that hd users cannot (though i hear that might change in 8) plus the buss speed of the hd cards is now slower than what our computers are capable of, either upgraded hardware from digi will have to happen or to phase out the hd hardware.

the upgrades coming to le in track count, finally more busses for the 2000 complete toolkit are very promising.

tracking latency is not an issue, i track with plugs all the time at a hw buffer setting of 64 (mac can do 32), and can actually get a lot of the mixing done at 64. hd is set at 128.

there are a couple plugs i wish they would port to le though such as the eventide bundle, and no excuse for digi not to have all of there plugs ported for le.

having ata now rtas is very nice. not been very fond of having to have a vst plug wrapped to make it work. plus some nice improvements, but is taking a bit to get used to, plus with pt 8 having 5 more plugin inserts, we are not giving up much using it.

the biggest downfall though is our lack of good hardware and inputs available. as stated by the first poster, only 1 adat input, 1 spidf, 4 of the inputs have to go through the digi pre's and 4 line. so 18 total but 14 usable, and limits of the adat khz rate. the only true thing i wish they would do is just offer me a digi interface with some adat and spidf inputs only, no pre's, no line ins, hell dont even need any monitoring onboard. that would make a huge boost i think in the le world for us med level studios.

check out duc.digidesign.com where a lot more of users like us hang out at. might be able to get more ideas and other peoples thoughts.

[O'Ryan]

Originally Posted by guitardom

keeybeets rig and specs are pretty normal. i have a quad core q6600, bla modded 002, firface 800 for converters. adl 600, api a2d, vintech x 73i, couple chameleon labs 7602's, distressor......outboard. the amount of plugs and samplers i can run in a session is ridiculous. we can run a LOT (about 2x's as many) more on le than hd users can do to a 3gb of ram access switch we can use in le that hd users cannot (though i hear that might change in 8) plus the buss speed of the hd cards is now slower than what our computers are capable of, either upgraded hardware from digi will have to happen or to phase out the hd hardware.

the upgrades coming to le in track count, finally more busses for the 2000 complete toolkit are very promising.

tracking latency is not an issue, i track with plugs all the time at a hw buffer setting of 64 (mac can do 32), and can actually get a lot of the mixing done at 64. hd is set at 128.

there are a couple plugs i wish they would port to le though such as the eventide bundle, and no excuse for digi not to have all of there plugs ported for le.

having ata now rtas is very nice. not been very fond of having to have a vst plug wrapped to make it work. plus some nice improvements, but is taking a bit to get used to, plus with pt 8 having 5 more plugin inserts, we are not giving up much using it.

the biggest downfall though is our lack of good hardware and inputs available. as stated by the first poster, only 1 adat input, 1 spidf, 4 of the inputs have to go through the digi pre's and 4 line. so 18 total but 14 usable, and limits of the adat khz rate. the only true thing i wish they would do is just offer me a digi interface with some adat and spidf inputs only, no pre's, no line ins, hell dont even need any monitoring onboard. that would make a huge boost i think in the le world for us med level studios.

check out duc.digidesign.com where a lot more of users like us hang out at. might be able to get more ideas and other peoples thoughts.

Cool. See im in the market of buying an iMac so im just trying feel out some stuff as far as work load.

[guitardom]

keey and i are both on pc. there are a few reasons going that even though we pc guys have quad core and the mac have octo cores, we are getting more and better performance out of pc's in the le world. i am sure the macs are no slouch thoughthumbsup might also want to check the digi site for all the compatibility info on the computer your looking at before pulling the trigger.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

ole buddy ole pal Guitardom...how da hell r u... so Pristine now u've seen/heard poof that its beyond possible that LE is no myth...i'm not really a spec-tech kinda guy but thatz where Guitardom comes in... So @least now u have as to what I would think is enuf info to go on...

[therecordinghous]

how does that video show how to "make PT LE work like HD"?

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

how does that video show how to "make PT LE work like HD"?

Read the whole thread & then ask...

[big65pbass]

keebeeets,

WOW! VERY nice sounding recording!

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by big65pbass

keebeeets,

WOW! VERY nice sounding recording!

thanks a mills...

[therecordinghous]

Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS

Read the whole thread & then ask...

i did sir. must have missed something....

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

i did sir. must have missed something....

Oh well...No prob bud-deee... We know we always gotta get 1 in a thread...Keep it happening my friend...

[ryanojohn]

Using a ton of plugins, is not making LE work like HD... at least that's not what I feel an HD system is good at. Hell my home rig runs more plugins than the HD7 system we had at the studio (core accell, and 6 accell cards, through an expansion chassis, in a G5)

I run an M-Powered system, and I'm often upward of 60 tracks,
running RTAS on a mac pro quad 3.2 all sessions at 88.2khz,
I run ATA on all tracks for semi-ADC,
I use an M-Audio Profire, with two Rosetta 800s for 16 i/o at 88.2khz,
and stereo i/o via S/PDIF also.

I run a lot of outboard hardware inserts,

and I use the rig for mixing primarily, and sometimes tracking vocals.

Essentially it works out to 96 voices, 18 i/o at up to 96khz, and solid as hell up to about 130 plugins, including many instances of fairchilds, pultecs, tl spaces etc.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

dude; the point of the thread is "IS HE GONNA BE HANDICAPPED GOING FROM HD TO LE"... We're proving the point of no...So nobody really gives a care "MAKE LE WORK LIKE HD; thatz what the thread started as & the questions that were ask by the poster are being answered; So thatz that on that... Far as i'm concerned, PT is PT now days with the computers being as powerful as they are & I garauntee u I'm SMASHING a lot of HD users; So again, the question was ask; & we answered...Read the 1st post thouroughly, respect what he ask, RESPECT THE THREAD TITLE, & answer what he wants to know....JEEEZZZ; does every other person have to be a CARTER REED???...lol...JEEEEZZZZ

[severe]

Some more insight:

regret switching away from PTHD?

[ryanojohn]

Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS

but really the mod would sound better than an HD2 rig & where I am an HD3...

Neither HD2 nor HD3 have convertors, so I don't see how the mod would sound better than either...

With both HD and LE you have the option of external conversion, and clocking, so the 'sound' of your I/O is the same. The internal mixbus is the difference, and personally I like the 32bit float 'features' better than the 48bit mix bus.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

With both HD and LE you have the option of external conversion, and clocking, so the 'sound' of your I/O is the same. The internal mixbus is the difference, and personally I like the 32bit float 'features' better than the 48bit mix bus.

This, I understand...

Originally Posted by ryanojohn

Neither HD2 nor HD3 have convertors, so I don't see how the mod would sound better than either...

??? Ur losing me a bit there bud-deee...

[dhiltonlittle]

Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS

This, I understand...



??? Ur losing me a bit there bud-deee...

he's saying that the hd cards are...cards.

and to get converters you need.....well....converters.

[mdjice]

I run a Pro Private studio using LE. I love the ease of use and rtas support (TDM are way to expensive)
with protools 8 track count is not a problem anymore. ADC is a "Semi" problem since ATA. not as easy as HD but it gets it done. The ONLY problem I have is the number of I/O My console is an Inline 36 inputs/24 buss and PT LE is limited to 18 simultanious REC.
so in my case I don't really have the choice and WILL have to upgrade to PT HD as I can't work fully with LE now that I have a console. it sucks because LE works great for right now and spending that kind of money on HD only for more I/O is not something I considere a valuable expense.
as to OP if you don't need more then 18 I/O LE can do pretty much anything HD can when combined with ATA but since you already have HD I would just keep it

[guitardom]

run a Pro Private studio using LE. I love the ease of use and rtas support (TDM are way to expensive)
with protools 8 track count is not a problem anymore. ADC is a "Semi" problem since ATA. not as easy as HD but it gets it done. The ONLY problem I have is the number of I/O My console is an Inline 36 inputs/24 buss and PT LE is limited to 18 simultanious REC.
so in my case I don't really have the choice and WILL have to upgrade to PT HD as I can't work fully with LE now that I have a console. it sucks because LE works great for right now and spending that kind of money on HD only for more I/O is not something I considere a valuable expense.
as to OP if you don't need more then 18 I/O LE can do pretty much anything HD can when combined with ATA but since you already have HD I would just keep it

i have considered myself when i need more inputs for tracking, which is part of the reason i got the fireface, to use an app like reaper to track with and just pull the tracks into pro tools when the rhythm bed is done and ready to start overdubs. not the greatest solution by any means, but when you have all the hardware you need and just a 50$ program to solve the rest of the problem, it is quite tempting. the only things that i think need to be considered is how to properly import alternate takes on the rhythm bed, punch ins, things like that. can be easily solved but have to be taken into consideration for the time it will take to do it.

[KEYBEEETSSS]

Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle

he's saying that the hd cards are...cards.

and to get converters you need.....well....converters.

Oh rite..Misread...thanks although being a smarty but thanks...

[dhiltonlittle]

no disrespect, just sayin.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by KEYBEEETSSS

Oh rite..Misread...thanks although being a smarty but thanks...

Not really...you can put Prisms on an HD rig that would (in a space good enough to hear the difference) be a big improvement on a modded 002.

yes, I know you could put prisms on a 002 as well...that's not what you were saying though.

[mdjice]

Originally Posted by guitardom

i have considered myself when i need more inputs for tracking, which is part of the reason i got the fireface, to use an app like reaper to track with and just pull the tracks into pro tools when the rhythm bed is done and ready to start overdubs. not the greatest solution by any means, but when you have all the hardware you need and just a 50$ program to solve the rest of the problem, it is quite tempting. the only things that i think need to be considered is how to properly import alternate takes on the rhythm bed, punch ins, things like that. can be easily solved but have to be taken into consideration for the time it will take to do it.

Well I do use reaper for productios for I need a lot of I/O not for recording but for mixing (on an analog console) so if i want to mix in PT, I have to go HD...