heavy guitars comp

Hal · 24th November 2008

Often I receive heavy guitars or too muddy or too edgy so I'm searching for a compressor for them that can help me to improve this aspect. Now I have the possibility to take one of them: Joemeek sc2 (the first) and dbx 160x (x 2) What do you think? and which setting do you suggest to start

muziqfreek · 24th November 2008

i may be barking up the wrong tree here... but IMHO heavy guitars are among the instruments that need the least amount of compression... If you're just mixing them rather than having control over the recording side of things... try EQ'ing them to scoop out the muddy and bite-y parts of the spectrum... i normally tend to Hi-Pass up to the point where you start to lose the "meat" so as to allow the Bass Gtr and Kick Drum to carry the bottom end of things.. . as always mileage is varible and results may differ ;-)

peace

Matt

greyskull · 24th November 2008

none

el cochino · 24th November 2008

Multiband compression can work

SLy_drums · 24th November 2008

I don't think you really need compression on guitars. I always try to focus on better recordings instead of trying to get them in the mix by EQ, compression etc.
For me an SM57 ALWAYS works if placed correctly, with the good settings dialed on the amp.
I recently recorded THIS as a "test".

Chain was : ESP Horizon with EMG pickups into my Peavey 5150. A bit of tubescreamer pedal added to "boost" the tone (can take away the mud in the low mids). SM57 in front of the cab (vintage 4x12" with Celestion G12H50 speakers in it), into API pre, then Lavry AD10 converter. Don't take care of the tuning please.
If you really need compression, a multiband working in the low mids would work well if the tone lacks tightness there.

**George Necola** · 24th November 2008

your sample sounds a bit wrong to me.. maybe.. I am wrong :D

Hal · 24th November 2008

Thanks, I already do the necessary eq and if necessary the multiband compression if needed but I'd like to pass the guitars through some outboard to improve the guitar tone more than to apply compression

SLy_drums · 24th November 2008

What do you think is wrong George ? It's not the best tone on earth, I'd prefer to use V30 speakers which are are tighter, but the low mids are not jumping all around in this sample, I don't think it needs compression for instance.
And that's more of a "metal" tone, not a rock tone

I guess it really depends on the the style/amp used/tone you're after.

And yes a good outboard EQ would be more useful I think.

allencollins · 24th November 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLy_drums

What do you think is wrong George ? It's not the best tone on earth, I'd prefer to use V30 speakers which are are tighter, but the low mids are not jumping all around in this sample, I don't think it needs compression for instance.
And that's more of a "metal" tone, not a rock tone

I guess it really depends on the the style/amp used/tone you're after.

And yes a good outboard EQ would be more useful I think.

The one thing that can never be wrong is a sound. I hate to say it.
It's all subjective. There are platinum records I don't like the sound of.

I think it sound good. Needs some eq.

cortisol · 24th November 2008

I don't mind a bit of compression on heavy guitars. I find that a particular heavy guitar sound will suit compression or it won't on a case by case basis.

Mutli-band compressors can sound great for rebalancing a heavy guitar sound (retains the integrity of the sound - sounds natural) and linear phase eq as well for more manipulation with natural results.

If I recieve a distorted guitar that needs altering in character then I might have to pass them through a speaker emulator, amp sim, transformer etc.

I've only tried the DBX160 on bass and it did smoothen the top and upper mids which I hated as I was the bass player and not the engineer!

Peace,
cortisol

kats · 24th November 2008

I'm not much of a gtr compression guy, but I have found API compressors really work well on electric gtrs. They somehow sound better going through the electronics - even if your hardly touching them at all.

allencollins · 24th November 2008

I think comp on gtrs depends on the amp and the mic. If you use a close miced 57 you probably don't need a comp. Since there is the natural compression from the mic. You mic it with a condenser you probably need a comp.

I also have noticed that many of the newer boutique amps have a tighter tube compression than say the older amps So they are more dynamically even. I miced up a hughes & kettner a while back that sounded like it already was compressed. Sounded nice.

It all depends sometimes you need it sometimes you don't.

SLy_drums · 24th November 2008

Quote:

It all depends sometimes you need it sometimes you don't.

I totally agree, really depends on which kind of sound you're after and how you tracked it. I find myself using more EQ than compression on guitars though.

six_wax · 24th November 2008

if you listen to all the timid kitty cats who say your guitars are already compressed enough, you might be missing the bus... I've worked with some pretty big name guys that whack 'em down something fierce. Distressors are great for controlling the low end chunk & chug, & I'm one of those guys that love the sound of 1176s on guitars. I don't love the ApI for tracking, but on a gtr mix bus it can sound freakin' great. There's another live thread that's touring tube mu's for heavies... I know I'm going to try that one too...

Tranny-colored comps can tighten up looser or overly distorted tones. Tubey comps kind of liven up a gravelly tone. And aside from the almost obligatory insane mix-time brightening, I *hate* eq'ing distorted guitars (unless it's something super-creamy like a Neve 10xx... But the iron-does most of the work)... The phase distortion from the eq is always way too obvious. At mix, this might make the part poke through nicely and work out to be your friend (think E-series), but during tracking?!? If it's during tracking, go play with the amp!

engmix · 24th November 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by six_wax

if you listen to all the timid kitty cats who say your guitars are already compressed enough, you might be missing the bus... I've worked with some pretty big name guys that whack 'em down something fierce. Distressors are great for controlling the low end chunk & chug, & I'm one of those guys that love the sound of 1176s on guitars. I don't love the ApI for tracking, but on a gtr mix bus it can sound freakin' great. There's another live thread that's touring tube mu's for heavies... I know I'm going to try that one too...

Tranny-colored comps can tighten up looser or overly distorted tones. Tubey comps kind of liven up a gravelly tone. And aside from the almost obligatory insane mix-time brightening, I *hate* eq'ing distorted guitars (unless it's something super-creamy like a Neve 10xx... But the iron-does most of the work)... The phase distortion from the eq is always way too obvious. At mix, this might make the part poke through nicely and work out to be your friend (think E-series), but during tracking?!? If it's during tracking, go play with the amp!

agree with six wax. Distressors, 1176, API, and i might also use SSL G Comp for adding a bit of tightening, presence and aggression. Sometimes just running the units in idle mode can get you a good degree of color as well, especially an 1176.

craigdouglas · 24th November 2008

sounds like more of an amp issue. what amps are you using? what tubes?

CorkyTart · 24th November 2008

Try new strings.

strewnshank · 24th November 2008

Compression on a guitar buss isn't always just about changing the tone of the guitars, it can be about making them sit in the mix correctly. I love my EL8's on the guitar buss, or my new 2500, as I'm just finding out. Almost always in parallel for me though.

To answer your question, I think that 160xt's are awesome, and even if you don't like them on your guitar buss, you'll probably find a use for them somewhere else.

NathanEldred · 24th November 2008

Distressors for that really low frequency emphasized palm muting kind of thing.

Slikjmuzik · 24th November 2008

I do compress my Heil PR30 with a Distressor going into the converters. If a Distressor is too expensive, the Pro-VLA by ART does a nice job at leveling things off....if you change the tubes to JJ Electronics tubes, it'll sound even nicer and you won't be getting crap for tubes. If you want to spend the money on Mullards or NOS Telefunkens go ahead, but I have amps and pres that I've put JJ's in and they sound amazing. Heck, I even put on of their 12ax7's into my radial tonebone and now that's my favorite tone box to track with. I record a lot of pop/rock who like to do palm muting a lot during verses and compression is abosolutely needed, so I feel ya brother. Just do it in moderation, don't go nuts....that distressor can fool ya and make you think you're getting a better sound the more you adjust that input knob and the gain reduction starts hitting higher numbers.....restrain yourself, cuz it doesn't mean that same sound will sound great in the mix.

andychamp · 24th November 2008

I usually only need a compressor for heavy gtrs. when the muted low strings are overpowering an otherwise balanced tone.
In that case, a multi-band compressor can be very helpful, or a fullrange compressor with a sidechain access. Tune in on the rumble and leave the rest untouched.

Goldfish · 25th November 2008

I always try to get some API in my tracking chain for heavy guitars for tone. To my ears a 525 or 2500 does something positive with the tone even if you just run the signal through them. I find that the amount of compression one can get away safely depends on the amount of gain and sustain coming from the amp. I sometimes will try a bit of comp in the mix on the gtr buss if I make any EQ boosts that change the level and contour of the tracks. And as andychamp says, a bit of multiband comp if the mutes are out of control.

24th November 2008	#1
Hal Gear maniac Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 198 Thread Starter	heavy guitars comp Often I receive heavy guitars or too muddy or too edgy so I'm searching for a compressor for them that can help me to improve this aspect. Now I have the possibility to take one of them: Joemeek sc2 (the first) and dbx 160x (x 2) What do you think? and which setting do you suggest to start

24th November 2008	#18
strewnshank Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 1,604	Compression on a guitar buss isn't always just about changing the tone of the guitars, it can be about making them sit in the mix correctly. I love my EL8's on the guitar buss, or my new 2500, as I'm just finding out. Almost always in parallel for me though. To answer your question, I think that 160xt's are awesome, and even if you don't like them on your guitar buss, you'll probably find a use for them somewhere else. __________________ Chris Thomas Chris@strewnshank.com "facts are stupid things" -Ronald Reagan I want to purchase your Sony MXP3000 series EQ modules. Email me.

24th November 2008	#20
Slikjmuzik Lives for gear Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 2,689	I do compress my Heil PR30 with a Distressor going into the converters. If a Distressor is too expensive, the Pro-VLA by ART does a nice job at leveling things off....if you change the tubes to JJ Electronics tubes, it'll sound even nicer and you won't be getting crap for tubes. If you want to spend the money on Mullards or NOS Telefunkens go ahead, but I have amps and pres that I've put JJ's in and they sound amazing. Heck, I even put on of their 12ax7's into my radial tonebone and now that's my favorite tone box to track with. I record a lot of pop/rock who like to do palm muting a lot during verses and compression is abosolutely needed, so I feel ya brother. Just do it in moderation, don't go nuts....that distressor can fool ya and make you think you're getting a better sound the more you adjust that input knob and the gain reduction starts hitting higher numbers.....restrain yourself, cuz it doesn't mean that same sound will sound great in the mix. __________________ Julian Ear Candy Studios www.earcandystudios.com It's the indian, not the arrow...

24th November 2008	#21
andychamp Lives for gear Joined: May 2005 Location: Basel, Switzerland Posts: 2,872	I usually only need a compressor for heavy gtrs. when the muted low strings are overpowering an otherwise balanced tone. In that case, a multi-band compressor can be very helpful, or a fullrange compressor with a sidechain access. Tune in on the rumble and leave the rest untouched. __________________ André ___________________________________________ "Recording exactly what a musician hears turns out to be a really big deal." Bob Olhsson "Who cares about efficiency, when we're talking about music?" Rupert Neve "it'll sound different through a microphone, anyway" Keith Carlock "no room, no boom!" Michael Wagener

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24th November 2008	#2
muziqfreek Gear addict Joined: Jan 2004 Location: UK Posts: 374 7 Reviews written	i may be barking up the wrong tree here... but IMHO heavy guitars are among the instruments that need the least amount of compression... If you're just mixing them rather than having control over the recording side of things... try EQ'ing them to scoop out the muddy and bite-y parts of the spectrum... i normally tend to Hi-Pass up to the point where you start to lose the "meat" so as to allow the Bass Gtr and Kick Drum to carry the bottom end of things.. . as always mileage is varible and results may differ ;-) peace Matt

24th November 2008	#3
greyskull Gear addict Joined: Nov 2006 Location: surrey Posts: 430 1 Review written	none

24th November 2008	#4
el cochino Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 942	Multiband compression can work

24th November 2008	#5
SLy_drums Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 762	I don't think you really need compression on guitars. I always try to focus on better recordings instead of trying to get them in the mix by EQ, compression etc. For me an SM57 ALWAYS works if placed correctly, with the good settings dialed on the amp. I recently recorded THIS as a "test". Chain was : ESP Horizon with EMG pickups into my Peavey 5150. A bit of tubescreamer pedal added to "boost" the tone (can take away the mud in the low mids). SM57 in front of the cab (vintage 4x12" with Celestion G12H50 speakers in it), into API pre, then Lavry AD10 converter. Don't take care of the tuning please. If you really need compression, a multiband working in the low mids would work well if the tone lacks tightness there.

24th November 2008	#6
George Necola PC Moderator Joined: Mar 2005 Location: Winterthur, Switzerland Posts: 7,974 6 Reviews written	your sample sounds a bit wrong to me.. maybe.. I am wrong :D

24th November 2008	#10
cortisol Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 601	I don't mind a bit of compression on heavy guitars. I find that a particular heavy guitar sound will suit compression or it won't on a case by case basis. Mutli-band compressors can sound great for rebalancing a heavy guitar sound (retains the integrity of the sound - sounds natural) and linear phase eq as well for more manipulation with natural results. If I recieve a distorted guitar that needs altering in character then I might have to pass them through a speaker emulator, amp sim, transformer etc. I've only tried the DBX160 on bass and it did smoothen the top and upper mids which I hated as I was the bass player and not the engineer! Peace, cortisol

24th November 2008	#11
kats Lives for gear Joined: May 2005 Posts: 3,684	I'm not much of a gtr compression guy, but I have found API compressors really work well on electric gtrs. They somehow sound better going through the electronics - even if your hardly touching them at all.

24th November 2008	#12
allencollins 3 + infractions, forum membership suspended. Joined: Oct 2004 Location: Rosedale Cemetery Singing Beach, MA Posts: 4,873	I think comp on gtrs depends on the amp and the mic. If you use a close miced 57 you probably don't need a comp. Since there is the natural compression from the mic. You mic it with a condenser you probably need a comp. I also have noticed that many of the newer boutique amps have a tighter tube compression than say the older amps So they are more dynamically even. I miced up a hughes & kettner a while back that sounded like it already was compressed. Sounded nice. It all depends sometimes you need it sometimes you don't.

24th November 2008	#14
six_wax Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,102	if you listen to all the timid kitty cats who say your guitars are already compressed enough, you might be missing the bus... I've worked with some pretty big name guys that whack 'em down something fierce. Distressors are great for controlling the low end chunk & chug, & I'm one of those guys that love the sound of 1176s on guitars. I don't love the ApI for tracking, but on a gtr mix bus it can sound freakin' great. There's another live thread that's touring tube mu's for heavies... I know I'm going to try that one too... Tranny-colored comps can tighten up looser or overly distorted tones. Tubey comps kind of liven up a gravelly tone. And aside from the almost obligatory insane mix-time brightening, I hate eq'ing distorted guitars (unless it's something super-creamy like a Neve 10xx... But the iron-does most of the work)... The phase distortion from the eq is always way too obvious. At mix, this might make the part poke through nicely and work out to be your friend (think E-series), but during tracking?!? If it's during tracking, go play with the amp!

24th November 2008	#16
craigdouglas Gear maniac Joined: Jun 2004 Location: houston Posts: 157	sounds like more of an amp issue. what amps are you using? what tubes?

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24th November 2008	#17
CorkyTart Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2004 Location: In a house Posts: 1,378	Try new strings.

24th November 2008	#19
NathanEldred Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: West Coast Central Florida Posts: 7,242	Distressors for that really low frequency emphasized palm muting kind of thing.

25th November 2008	#22
Goldfish Gear nut Joined: Nov 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 104	I always try to get some API in my tracking chain for heavy guitars for tone. To my ears a 525 or 2500 does something positive with the tone even if you just run the signal through them. I find that the amount of compression one can get away safely depends on the amount of gain and sustain coming from the amp. I sometimes will try a bit of comp in the mix on the gtr buss if I make any EQ boosts that change the level and contour of the tracks. And as andychamp says, a bit of multiband comp if the mutes are out of control.