Is there such a thing as 5.1 OTB summing?

[matskull]

As cool as otb summing sounds for music I don't think it's necessarry for film, 5.1 is cool but in reality nobody seems to give a shit about it... (except the mixer)

[Gerax]

Yes, I know that, as I also work in film sound post production, but I was referring to music mixing for the likes of live DVDs, not really for film sound where I too work entirely ITB.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Gerax

Yes, I know that, as I also work in film sound post production, but I was referring to music mixing for the likes of live DVDs, not really for film sound where I too work entirely ITB.

Ok, now that would make more sence, but to answer your original question I guess it's feasable but I don't know if anybody does it...

[strauss]

I believe Tonelux has 5.1 modules as well as ADT.

[nlc201]

The problem with doing 5.1 OTB mixing out of PTLE8 is that you're going to be limited by the number of output channels PTLE can support. I believe the limit now is 18. Say you did get 2 more summing mixers for Ls-Rs and C-Lfe. In order to pan a channel in between hard points, you'd have to have that channel assigned to most, if not all of the summing mixers at once. Doing that requires more physical output channels. For example, a surround reverb with a center component and an LFE component would require 6 discrete outs to get to all three summing mixers. With a limit of 18, that's a full 1/3 of your outputs used up, just on ONE reverb!.


Now, of course, you probably won't need to have the ability to change the pan to every possibility which would save on outputs. For example, you have a stereo source (like a keyboard or Overheads or something) that you can put in only the front Left and Right only the surround Left and Right. That would alleviate the need for extra discrete output channels. However, if you wanted to pan slightly "deeper" by throwing some of that stereo signal into other speakers as well, you'll be unable to do it without bringing in more outputs. Also, any panning done like this (without the full 6 discrete outs) will require a patching change in order to modify it. That can stifle the workflow pretty easily.


The best bet with in the 3 different summing boxes arena would probably be to mix ITB to 3 (5.1) surround stems and sum those OTB for your finished mix. The caveat here is that if you print your mix back into PTLE, you'll be unable to monitor it out of PTLE while laying your mix back as you won't have any outputs left with which to do so.

The better choice might just be to get a complete 5.1 summing system (Tonlux or ADT as mentioned) or console with panners built in. This will save you from some of the excess outputs needed. However, this is also very expensive and your dangerous would not integrate into this system. You would also be unable to automate many pan moves which may or may not matter.


If I were putting this together for myself, I'd put priority into getting a good surround monitoring system (speakers, good sub that's properly isolated, monitor controller) first. That's WAY more important than the summing. You'll also probably need some additional software plugins (like the Waves 360 bundle and a good 5.1 reverb plugin) that are indispensable when doing 5.1 mixing. Again with the limit of 18 discrete outs in PTLE, I'd bag the OTB summing for surround mixing. Or, you could go whole hog and upgrade to PTHD and at least be able to scale your system to get the number of outputs you need.


I've done 5.1 mixing in PT for years and it sounds just fine to me. Going OTB in this instance sounds like more trouble than it's worth.


Good luck!

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Gerax

...5.1 OTB summing. Crazy idea?

easily done, as there are consoles that do this; d&r and tonelux come to mind. tonelux wouldn't be too expensive to put together a little 16 or 32 channel solution just for panning, levels, and summing.

ordinary summing boxes, though, you're kinda s.o.l. unless you have 32 outputs and want to use them for your 7 or 8 key elements, still doing a lot of submixing itb. sounds like a headache, although if i had to bet i'd say there are people doing it.

the key is the panning. if you can pan in the analog domain, a la tonelux or d&r, you only need 1 output for mono sources and 2 for stereo. that's eminently do-able.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[mu6gr8]

Originally Posted by u b k

... ordinary summing boxes, though, you're kinda s.o.l. unless you have 32 outputs and want to use them for your 7 or 8 key elements, still doing a lot of submixing itb. sounds like a headache, although if i had to bet i'd say there are people doing it.

32 is the minimum number of outputs for OTB surround summing to make sense. Send all you L&R (front) tracks to a 16x2 mixer, and your Ls & Rs tracks to a second 16x2 mixer. You can set up a quad bus in your DAW that sends to both mixers so you can pan stuff front-to-rear. With music mixes, there's typically not much in the C & LFE channels, so you can sum those ITB before sending them out to a filter and/or crossover for the purpose of decorrelation. I do this all the time with minimal ITB submixing and good results.