Vocal pre advice (Beck, Wilco, Nigel Godrich)

[John_McEnroe]

I know this topic has been beaten to death, Ive been through the archives and just wanted to narrow down what ive learned before I see about trying some of these units in person.

Im going to be using a Soundelux u195 and I *think* I am looking for a channel strip like a Millennia STT-1, Avalon 737, or Focusrite 430 (or something similar).

Here are my questions:

-I am going to be mixing ITB or perhaps at another facility, do I really need a channel strip with compression/EQ, or am I better off getting just a preamp (I quite like the Avalon 2022) and compressing/EQing later during the mix?

-Would a more flexible solution be to get a pre like the 2022 and then a seperate compressor like a distressor for flexibility?


My absolute number one priority is vocals.


The style of music is quite different from what I do but I like the sound of the Wilco vocals, Becks vocals on Mutations and Sea Change, and pretty much any vocals Nigel Godrich gets (radiohead, pavement). These all sound very *big* and beautiful to me while still sounding clear.


Ive tried the UA 2-610 already and didnt like it (too much tube flavor)


These are easy for me to demo:

Avalon 737
Focusrite 430
Millennia STT-1
UA 6176

Things like the Manley Voxbox arent.



I noticed an INCREDIBLE difference when I used an Avalon 2022 for my piano, I would love to see the same improvement with vocals.

Phew thanks for reading this long post. I know nothing compares to hands on demo's, I just like to educate myself as much as possible before going into the shop.

Thanks a lot!

[John_McEnroe]

Wow 50 views and no one has an opinion?

[Soundog]

I can't comment on the Avalon, Focusrite or UA as I've never seen them - but I do find the EQ and compression on the STT-1 very useful when tracking ( the de-esser is useless ). I don't have to worry about clipping when tracking as much.

My focus is entirely vocals and that's all the STT-1 gets used for - for which I find it brilliant. I found it even more brilliant after I changed the tubes and let them settle down for a while.

Having said that, I recently got my hands on a Gordon Audio Model 4 and it is noticeably better than anything I've managed to get out of the STT-1. The model 4 is just a pre-amp. No compressor, EQ or de-esser, yet the sound is bigger and more accurate ( which is what I'm looking for ).

While I have previously gone for units that are very efficient and versatile such as the STT-1, now I'm not so sure and as time goes on, I'm leaning towards acquiring items that are the best or equal to the best of their kind for their intended purpose.

[ziegenh5]

Nigel's the guy for me too. I hear a lot of size and character in his vocal sounds. I'd be willing to bet he's using a nice vintage Neumann and either a Neve, API, or Trident pre. I wouldn't worry about having compression and eq on the way in but that's just me.
Sean

[John_McEnroe]

Thanks for the answers guys.


Are there any Neve, Api, or Trident single or dual channnel pre's that are in the same price range as the Avalon 737 or Millennia STT-1? The 737 doesnt seem to be very popular around here so ill probably put the Millennia at the top of the pist to check out.

[songman]

I'd give the Millennia STT1 a try if I were you. The SS path is as pristine as you can get (see the review over at Recording.Org). Only thing, I changed the tubes to Telefunken NOS. That was a good move, now the difference between the SS and the VT paths is quite noticeable, and the VT path in the Millennia is considerably better than the Avalon 737. But of course, this is my personal opinion.

Cheers, Bob.

[wallace]

I think I read that they used a U47 for the vocals on the last several radiohead albums. Probably a Neve type preamp too.

[John_McEnroe]

Great, I will definitely try the Millennia. About Neve style pre's, there seem to be so many that are either knockoffs or 'designed' by Neve (eg the focusrites) are there a few in particular that you guys are referring to when you say a 'neve style' pre?


Thanks again, this is really very helpful for me.


As for a u47 mic, thats a little out of my range for the moment. Hopefully I will be happy with the soundelux u195.

[wallace]

After hearing it, and based on other's recommendations, I got a Phoenix GTQ2. It also sounds similar to the Vintech X73. I like the EQs on the GTQ2. I haven't heard some of those other pres, but it sounds a lot better than the UA 2-610.

[u b k]

i'll chime in and say that since you'll be completely itb post-tracking, analog compression on the way in is a very good thing. ime there does not exist a compressor plug-in that can tame signals the way a good analog comp will, and this is doubly true of vocals.

plus, a good hardware compressor can add a tremendous amount of lush thickness and weight to a vocal, which it sounds like you want, and you'll need less plug-in to get it to sit right.


gregoire
del ubik

[John_McEnroe]

So ubik are you saying to get a pre with a comp built in or a pre and then a separate comp like a distressor or something? (or doesnt it matter...)

[Winey]

1073 - 1176.
Yes it's standard.
Yes there's a good reason.
If you can afford it this is the way to go IMO.

[ziegenh5]

I would get a stand alone pre and comp. Most of the time this is more flexible and better sounding. Plus you have more options as far as which manufacturer to buy from. Also, I'm not including 'Neve style' pre's into the discussion. I'm talking specifically 1073's, 1066's, 1084's, 1081's, you get the idea. Not 1272's either. The Trident A range or B range will definitely get you there IMO. Some early Daking pre's I have heard definitely get you there IMO. A good API will get you there. Heck, a lot of stuff will get you there, it just depends on where you want to go, if you know where you want to go, and if you know when you've gotten there. It sounds like you have a good idea of where you want to go, so now you just have to try some stuff. Neve, API, and Trident are a good place to start. Just read your thread again......did you try the 2022 on vox, if so, how did you like it?
Sean

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by John_McEnroe

Great, I will definitely try the Millennia. About Neve style pre's, there seem to be so many that are either knockoffs or 'designed' by Neve (eg the focusrites) are there a few in particular that you guys are referring to when you say a 'neve style' pre?


Thanks again, this is really very helpful for me.


As for a u47 mic, thats a little out of my range for the moment. Hopefully I will be happy with the soundelux u195.

www.auroraaudio.net

The GTQ is my favorite Neve style mic pre. Couple that with a distressor or 1176, etc...

Also, the Soundelux 195 is a very good mic all around mic. Very U87-ish!

[JTR]

A quick scan of your posts didn't clearly reveal whether you are tracking or mixing -
big factor, IMHO

Tried researching your ref artists to see what they actually used?
given their profile, bet you could dig up some tech hints...

good luck!

[RoundBadge]

I got to work with Nigel a while ago tracking Radiohead live in seattle..
Sounded Fuukking amazing...it was a neve 8068 and the comps ranged from 1176's /distressors/la2a's/DBX 160's etc staight to 2" tape and digital backup as well.
And the rough 2 mix sounded like a record! stike

[tree]

this looks promising and within budget possibly...
http://www.rupertneve.com/index.html

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by John_McEnroe

My absolute number one priority is vocals... sound very *big* and beautiful to me while still sounding clear.

I've used Focusrite, Vintech, Speck, Summit, Millennia, Grace, Midas, A Designs, Pendulum, and many others for vocals. But once I tried a Gordon I bought two and sold all my other preamps except the A Designs.

If you really want absolute clarity and the biggest, most holographic sound imaginable from your mics and vocals, nothing else I've tried has compared to the Gordons.

Steve

[John_McEnroe]

Thanks for the suggestions. Ill be n nnew york next week and I will try to find a good shop where I can demo some pre's side by side. Can anyone recommend a good shop in NY with a good selection of pre's?

I will try the Millennia STT-1 and as many "neve" type pre's as I can paired with a distressor and a 1176.


Someone asked if I will be mixing or tracking. I will be recording everything myself and either mixing it in the box at home or else doing the mix with someone else at another facility.

[tunesmith]

Let us not forget the great, and modestly priced, Daking Pre/EQ. I have recently split up my pair, only because I wanted another flavor and I didn't have any budget right now, and traded it for an Avalon M5. Before that, I demoed an Avalon 2022, but I didn't want to have to trade BOTH of my Dakings.

Now... here's the thing with the Daking vs. Avalon thing. The Daking is waaay more exciting, and the EQ is fantastic. For me, in my experience, the Daking sounds great on male voclas especially, and can emphasize a few negative traits in passionate, emotive female vocals.

The ultimate female chain around my place is The M5 (soooooo buttery smooth) into the Daking EQ for just a touch of excitement. Most male vocals get the Daking exclusively. I have noticed that when stacking vocals, the Avalon produces more open, smooth results. I have a suspicion that as I get deeper into it, the Daking may get more lead vocal duties, while the Avalon is used for my stacks.

At $1300.00, the Daking is a pre/eq that is NOT quickly dismissable, and there are many pros on this site (Wittman, for example) who swear by them. Combine that with top notch service (GD himself helped me with a problem this week) and you've got a winner.

The Daking kills focusrite 110s, 737s, and Manley (though I haven't heard the slam), IMO.

Tunes.

[NathanEldred]

There is no correct answer to your question. I'm guessing about 50% of what's out there would satisfy your sonic requirements. And it depends completely on what the vocalist sounds like. Nigel Godrich has probably used every classic mic and then some on the various amounts of work he's done. Probably even different mics within the same song.

[John_McEnroe]

Yeah im not looking for some cure all ultimate preamp. I dont have time to demo 50 different pre's, so I want to find 3-5 that people speak highly of and try them out. Im not expecting a preamp to make my recordings sound like N godrich, I just wanted to give you guys an idea of what I think sounds good.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by John_McEnroe

Yeah im not looking for some cure all ultimate preamp. I dont have time to demo 50 different pre's, so I want to find 3-5 that people speak highly of and try them out. Im not expecting a preamp to make my recordings sound like N godrich, I just wanted to give you guys an idea of what I think sounds good.

Sorry have to ask:


Are you the real John McEnroe?

If so its cool to have you on hear big Mac!!!

Can we Gearslutters get a hook up for US OPEn tickets?

[ziegenh5]

Well,
I'd recommend you try a Daking pre/eq. It is a top quality piece and sounds great on everything. Very, very close to a Trident A range. Other than that, I'd try API(not sure which one) or a real Neve 10XX, but now your talking some $$$$$.
Sean